matter and energy

Discussion in 'Science and the Universe' started by veritasamat, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, neoxenos!
    Very well. Yet, I am still confused. I understood you earlier to imply that creation is done within a dream. Do I understand you to mean that God creates a fresh new universe for every child that is created by sexual means, as well as every time "He" happens to dream? A great deal of all of this seems merely symbolic to me. Are there other ways and means of creation?

    Or am I to understand that the creation process in general is analogous to sex? The generating principle acting upon the incubating principle? (The Big Bang as a cosmic orgasm? :D) And that only one instance at the cosmic level is required for the existence of all we know and understand?

    And for clarification, which? Dream, or sex? Dreaming of sex? Or perhaps sexual fantasy? Or something altogether different?

    Can you see the confusion your position creates in one not familiar with it? :) I mean no disrespect, but I do not understand. Without rational clarity, this philosophy is difficult to place in context, and difficult to view with validity.

    :) I did not view your post as hostile, merely dogmatic. Some form of core belief is to be expected. Dogmatic insistance in superiority is another matter. Around here we call that "fundamentalism." I sincerely hope you are not fundamentalist, that is, I hope you are tolerant of other's faiths and positions, and that you will not mind other's questions to better understand your faith and position.

    I will look forward to your posts, welcome once again! :)
     
  2. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    indeed... that was my intention and aim :)
     
  3. Avinash

    Avinash Well-Known Member

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    Namaskar,

    The universe is a projection (a very consistent one, but nevertheless) of the Cosmic Mind. The Cosmic Mind is a qualified part of the Supreme Consciousness. So everything, even your "own" thoughts and dreams are dreamt up or thought up by the Cosmic Mind and a part of the Cosmic Consciousness.

    So matter is indeed a type of condensed or frozen consciousness and a projection of the Cosmic Mind. The only thing that is difficult to imagine is that the Cosmic Mind needs no brain like we do.

    The idea of spiritual progress is to "travel back" as it were, along the different layers of the Cosmic Mind to return to the source of the projection. In the process we have to retract or give back our own individual existence (which is also layered) and we merge (yoga). Of course we were already one with That but in the relative world of the projection, seperation was still felt. --my 2 cts.--
     
  4. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Avinash,

    thank you for the post.

    however... none of this is science as it makes no testable predictions and cannot be falsefied, thus, it is a philosophical position.... and this is the philosophy and science section....


    hmm... Brian... what do you think about seperating these two into their own respective disciplines? it's a bit confusing to have science and philosophy in the same section as the threads tend to conflate the two on occassion.
     
  5. neoxenos

    neoxenos Well-Known Member

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    Hi juantoo3,

    I refrained my discussion because I was not sure if it was prudent to talk about it here.

    Yes and No. Yes, for every creation, not a dream though. God does not dream because one who dreams is full of darkness, and God is Light itself.

    If, for example, we build something out of clay, we formulate it mentally first, then we bring it into physical reality through movements of our hands. So, everything physical first existed mentally, everything physical has a mental precursor. Now, mind is a type of matter, or energy, because they are the same thing. We can say that physical matter is a condensed form of energy. But there is mental matter is well, which is still a condensation of energy, but not as much, the mind is a type of crystallization of energy, but it is less rigid crystallization than physical matter. Think of it this way, liquid water is condensed water vapor, and ice is crystallization/condensation of liquid water, yet, all three forms are the same thing. So what is mind? It is matter, just like a table or a computer is made of matter, it is the same energy, but much more volant. What is energy? It is the First Fiat, it is the phenomena of the universal noumena. It is that Astral Light of the Alchemists, it is the Divine Fire, that energy released by burning a match... we release that fire from within the wood, because that fire is already there, what we call burning is the release of that fire from within the element that is burning.

    If we lived consciously in the Word of the Mind, which we could term a Parallel Universe that co-exists and co-penetrates with this physical world without trouble or confusion, then we could sit at a mental chair and hold a cup of mental tee as if it were physical, because, as we can say, the fish does not see the water it is in. If we were within the Mental Body, a body of mental flesh and bones, then everything would seem as it does here, because it is all relative.

    Beyond the Mind is the energy of the Consciousness, which is more subtle and less condensed, and beyond that is The Reality, Atman, and beyond that is the Illuminating Void, the Anatman, and beyond that is the Non Manifested, the Ain Soph. So it all comes from the same source, each type the energy becomes more complex and thus more rigid. This complexity is the cause of mistakes and suffering, as we raise our Level of Being we experience forms of energy that are less complex and therefore it is more happy. That is Nirvana, Para-Nirvana, or Supra-Nirvana, or, we can call various degrees of Happiness the Nine Heavens...

    There are Seven levels of Cosmos. A cosmos is a complete Creation, but there are seven recursive levels:

    Protocosmos - The Infinitie - Do
    Ayocosmos - Spiritual Sun - Si
    Macrocosmos - Galaxy - La
    Deuterocosmos - Solar System - Sol
    Mesocosmos - Planet - Fa
    Microcosmos - Physical Body - Mi
    Tritocosmos - The Inferno - Re

    The True Human is a Microcosmos, the one who has built a Cosmos within. The seven days of Genesis need to be played out within to create our internal paradise. The psyche is a Universe that, through much struggle and effort, must be known completely, if one wishes to return to Eden. If you come to know your internal cosmos you will know the external cosmos.

    “Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Gods and Goddesses.”

    The Hu-Manas, or Spirit-Mind, has little to do with these physical bodies we have, the true Spirit-Mind is the Atman, the Being, that is the Hu-Manas Being, these phsycial bodies are just the inferior end of That Being.


    I think it is best to see in a bit different terms. God can be seen as the Intelligent Principle. By sex as means of creation we should think of the Masculine Principle and the Feminine Principle conjoining to produce, for example in the Bible, the The White Dove of the Holy Spirit: that which fecundates. The physical analogue to these principles is Man and Woman, and the physical analogue to the creation of a Cosmos is the sexual act.

    God creates with the Word. The Gospel of John is the Gospel of the Word. In the beginning was the Word (Father), and the Word was with God (Son), and the Word was God (Holy Spirit). In Genesis, God said, “Let there be light.” The Divine Word creates. The word comes from the larynx, which we know is connected to our sexuality because when a boy or girl grows up their voice matures, so the larynx is connected with sexuality. The Word of God comes from the larynx of God, who is both Male and Female at the same time. In Revelations, the voice of God is a voice of “many waters,” and in this sense it is saying that it is very fecund. The Holy Spirit is related with the Waters, it is creation, the Waters is the Sexual Waters, the principle of vitality. When Jesus walked on the Waters he is telling us that he was able to control the Sexual Waters. This is why the Voice of God separates the Waters of Life in Genesis. In synthesis, the Divine Larynx is a uterus that fecundates the Word, because it has been made fertile by the Waters of Life, and the Word itself is Creation. Jehovah Elohim can be seen in the following way: Jah-Hava, Father-Mother, and Elohim, which is a Masculine root with a Feminine plural ending: Gods and Goddesses. This is why it is better to say that Jehovah Elohim is hovering over the waters and not just “God.”

    I understand now how I appeared. Thank you for telling me that. Dogma is ignorant and it is not something I wish to spread. Free will is a right of God, and everyone has a right to believe whatever they wish.


    Thank you for the welcome. Hopefully this will make some sense, although I know it quite a lot!
     
  6. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste neoxenos,

    thank you for the post.

    i know you are responding to juan and i've only one thing i'd like to clarify, if i may.
    i'm curious... from whence did you derive this information?
     
  7. neoxenos

    neoxenos Well-Known Member

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    Samael Aun Weor. It is a general statement that is attempting to say that there are Levels of "Heaven."
     
  8. Avinash

    Avinash Well-Known Member

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    Namaskar Vajradhara,

    I was mearly summarising my own 2 cts on spiritual philosophy on the subject dealt with in some of the postings previous to mine. So perhaps you should have better addressed us as a group?
     
  9. Avinash

    Avinash Well-Known Member

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    Besides that, the subtitles to the Philosophy and Science section are Physics, metaphysics, the enlightenment and the human experience
     
  10. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste neoxenos,

    thank you for the post and the reply.

    i presume this is the link that you were referencing:
    http://www.gnosis-usa.com/Lectures/nirvana.html


    after reading this... it would seem that Mr. Weor has misunderstood some Buddhist teachings :)

    no matter...

    here is a very good explanation of the Buddhist idea of Nirvana:

    http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/fdd43.htm
     
  11. neoxenos

    neoxenos Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Thank you for the link. I do understand the differences between what is traditionally taught in Buddhism and what Samael says about it. In actuality when I said the Nine Heavens I was referring to the Nine Sephiroth above Malkuth in the Tree of Life.

    2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago---whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows---such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

    Regards,
    Steve
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, Avinash! I apologize for my tardiness in returning to this post.
    I am afraid my familiarity with eastern religions is severely lacking, yet if I recall correctly, was there not a Hindu "representation of God" that is said to dream reality into existence? I say "representation of God" because it is my understanding that the various "gods" of the Hindu pantheon are various representation of the One.

    I am also intrigued by the "microvita" concept mentioned earlier. It would seem to be a way of explaining interaction at the sub-atomic level, in my personal view of spirit on matter. It this accurate?
     
  13. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Kindest Regards, neoxenos!

    I think I followed you reasonably well up to here:

    If I am understanding, then everything in heaven has a counterpart here on earth, and everything on earth has a counterpart in heaven. I realize the earth is pretty crowded, but there is no way I can see the earth hold a counterpart of everything in heaven. Even presuming the earth as the only planet possible of sustaining life, there would then have to be counterparts of every star and galaxy manifest in this dimension here on this planet. Not to mention, heaven would be crowded with manifestations of every creature that ever existed, assuming spirit does not die. If spirit is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. Again, it seems a nice conceptualization for explanation of a philosophical point of view, but it makes little to no sense rationally, at least not to me.

    I admit to very limited mystical experience, and even then my experiences are personal and subject to qualification. This passage seems to me to imply that by somehow "simplifying" my spirit, which by my understanding of this would seem to imply taking myself into a purely spiritual form, is the way to "happiness." Is this no different than the soul returning to the Father upon graduation from this life, this existence? To instigate this spiritual form deliberately, for instance by suicide, is to forfeit returning to the Father, which would seem to me to defeat the purpose.

    Know thyself.

    I don't recall this being in the Bible, may I ask where it is from?

    I have no difficulty comprehending spirit beings. However, I understand not to presume benevolence. I understand some to have motives not in accord with the Grand Design, and therefore not in accord with the best interests of a given human.

    I like the way bananabrain has expanded on this at length. My understanding in brief is that the Heavenly Father comprises the best of both genders, effectively being neuter and at the same time fertile. I refer to "Him" and "Father" out of historical and cultural respect.


    Here is the point I most wished to enjoin. A most enlightening study from my intro to philosophy class a short time back. Unfortunately, I lost the particular notes, so I am going to have to ad lib this.

    From the Gospel of John, the term translated in the King James version as "word" in the early verses is the Greek word "logos", Strong's #3056.

    Logos is defined as: account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

    As one can see, the "word" encompasses deeper meanings in John, yes. It could be said that as "cause", the term could be equated with Genesis in that God spoke, and it became so.

    While I am not an ardent and knowledgable linguist, the Strong's makes an excellent study tool for Greek and Biblical Hebrew.

    I think I see what you are getting at, but are there not other body parts as well that are associated with maturing? If nothing other than hair growing in places it didn't use to? Does this imply anything at a heavenly level? Or am I missing something?

    ["The Word of God comes from the larynx of God, who is both Male and Female at the same time. (*yes*) In Revelations, the voice of God is a voice of “many waters,” and in this sense it is saying that it is very fecund. (*May I ask what it is you mean by "fecund?"*) The Holy Spirit is related with the Waters, it is creation, the Waters is the Sexual Waters, the principle of vitality. When Jesus walked on the Waters he is telling us that he was able to control the Sexual Waters. (*I do not understand this...???*) This is why the Voice of God separates the Waters of Life in Genesis. In synthesis, the Divine Larynx is a uterus that fecundates the Word, because it has been made fertile by the Waters of Life, and the Word itself is Creation. Jehovah Elohim can be seen in the following way: Jah-Hava, Father-Mother, and Elohim, which is a Masculine root with a Feminine plural ending: Gods and Goddesses. This is why it is better to say that Jehovah Elohim is hovering over the waters and not just “God.” (*OK, I think I get it. You prefer to overtly acknowledge the gender reflections in the names for the Heavenly Father. I acknowledge them, just more covertly in keeping with cultural norms. The significance perhaps is lost on me, but it seems to me relatively unimportant, at least at a personal level. Or am I once again missing something?*)]

    I am very pleased to hear this.

    You are quite welcome! And yes, it is quite a lot of unfamiliar information to digest. I hope I do not come across as too challenging, I am not familiar with this line of thought, this philosophy. This is the first I have encountered it.

    Thank you for your patience.
     
  14. neoxenos

    neoxenos Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Well, honestly I cannot affirm nor deny what you have said. However, from what I understand we are not to think of this relationship so concretely, it is more abstract. It is the archetypicals. For example, every level of creation can be said to have Twelve aspects -- the Zodiac. It is not so much a correspondence as you described, but instead every level of creation has the same aspects. This is difficult for me to explain well... For example, we have 5 senses plus 7 supra-senses related with the seven magnetic centers along the spine, for a total of twelve. That is a how these relationships work.

    Well the Father is a part of you, or rather better said, you are part of Him. The Father is perfect however He is not conscious of this perfection. The Father is the Light of God, however, the Soul (psyche, or consciousness) is the mirror in which He can come to see Himself. The Father is happy but is not conscious of this happiness, because, without conscious experience one cannot know anything.

    Simplifying, as has been put, is difficult to grasp. In the most simple manifestation of existence there is only One Law, it is the master synthesis of everything. Here on earth we see the One Law from 48 different angles, 48 "Laws," 48 different aspects of the One Law. This is what gives us physical existence. It gives us Time, because the 48 Laws slow everything down, so to speak.. this slowing down lets us consciously experience. It is like lifting weights, the physical world is the heaviest weight, before Hell that is. In the Nine Spheres of Hell the laws increase from 96 to 864, making this area even more painful and slow. More concrete too, too dense for us to live physically there, for us, it appears to be mineral, this is why Hell is always located inside the earth in the myths and religions. This is why hell is painful, this is why we really learn a lesson if we go to hell, because time is really slow and really painful there.

    This is huge topic, that’s all I will say for now. This picture may or may not help.

    It is said to be inscribed on the Temple of the Oracle at Delphi.

    There are demons, no doubt. The worst demons are the ones who previously where the highest angels.

    Yes, I do too, usually. ;) But there are many aspects of the Father....

    You speak of Strong's Greek Dictionary? I have never heard of it until now. Sounds good to me.

    Well the concept is not so much of maturing but just that there is a connection between the Voice and the Sex. The example of going through puberity was just an easy way to make this connection clear.

    Fertile.

    The true arcane of baptism is the entering of the Christ into Man, and this done throught the Dove, the Holy Spirit. This is the connection of The Waters and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Third Logos, the Third Aspect of the One, the aspect that spilts into Joseph and Mary, Jah and Havah, Orsis and Isis, Shiva and Shakti, in order to produce the Son of God, Chesed in Kabbalah. So this aspect is complety sexual. So, in connecting this two topics, the Waters of Life represent the Holy Spirit and therefore fertility. Or simply, we can think of water as the element that gives life. The Waters of Man, the Sexual Waters, has to do with what the Alchemist calls the Liquid Metalic Chaos (Mercury). Of course we know that Mercury is a liquid metal, but more importantly, Mercury is the messenger of the Gods, He is the connection between Man and God. Physically, this is the "Ens Seminis." This a synthetic term that corresponds to the sexual energies in both man and woman. The energy of the cosmos comes into our bodies (1) through breathing, eating and our mental impressions, this energy is then condesned into (2) blood, and a final transformation into (3) semen, or Ens Seminis. This corresponds mathematically with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    To be in control of the Sexual Waters, one must not fornicate in the Mind (Father), nor in the Heart (Son), nor physically (Holy Spirit). This is how we come to understand why Jesus tells us that even thinking about another's wife is sin, that even thinking of someone else is mental sin. We fornicate the Father through Ill Thought, we fornicate the Son through Negative Emotions, and we fornicate the Holy Spirit through physical means.

    Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. – 1 Corinthians 6:18

    So to walk on the Waters is something impossible for the common person today. The man who does not fornicate in the three "minds" becomes a Christ. The Waters is vitality, therefore, someone who begins to curtail their fornication will become physically healthy, emotionally happy and psychologically equilibrated. In short, the perfect man, the superman Nietzsche.

    No, just realize that the Logos is the Perfect Multiple Unity. Variety is unity.

    Your questions are welcome, regardless of intent, as long as you do not mind being hit with a whole lot of information each time. The entire esoteric philosophy is very large, but, I will explain everything I know if you wish to ask.

    Peace,
    Steve
     
  15. granni

    granni old is....new, again.

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    what an intriguing and provocative thread! i so enjoy reading what you folks have to say!

    I Brian..... re your explination of E=MC2..... light, and energy.....
    i've a simple question: all matter is light/energy, so when it's dark why in blazes do i trip over that moved table? it's dark. there is no light. if it's not really there (what is really, anyway??), why does my shin believe otherwise? only the memory of what was?
    i'm not really being flip, it was the only way i could think of to phrase my question.... this truely intrigues me.


    to the rest of you:

    i don't know the origin of this, but i think it fits your discussions....

    "I dreamt that I was a butterfly.
    or am I a butterfly
    dreaming that
    I am I?"



    and, this sex thang..... ain't that attributing to God, what mankind is hung up on? all of us create. first, there's intent/need, then there's thought/word, that's followed by action, which is followed by accomplishment/deed. when i've come up with a great solution, there sure was no sex involved (folks in the office woulda pointed fingers and laughed).
    and since ya'all seem to agree that God is both genders, I don't think that's where His head is at.


    re the dark-ages thinkings that still exist that the churches seem uninterested in eradicating.....
    how is it that the generally educated masses don't notice that "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, for I am a jealous and vengeful God" reeks of an ego problem. a human characteristic. Apparently He has reason to be jealous. That means we have reason to rejoice. Someone else is in charge.
    The Nag Hammadi Library was my eye opener. that my thinking was not novel, nor original, nor alone. and this forum continues to inform and educate me.

    thank you........ all.

    granni
     
  16. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Granni,

    thank you for the post.

    your quote is from the Taoist work by Chuang-tzu, called the Chuang-tzu, oddly enough :)

    to be a bit more technical... the Tao Te Ching has three sections, this quote is in the second section. the first bit is attributed to Lao-tzu as the original author. the Chuang-tzu is commentary on those teachings and are found in two aspects, the Inner Chapters and the Outter Chapters, which correspond with the two areas of instruction in the Tao Te Ching, namely, inner "esoteric" and outter "exoteric" teachings.

    just because there's no visible light does not mean that there is no energy :) remember, humans can only sense a small part of the spectrum.
     
  17. Vajradhara

    Vajradhara One of Many

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    Namaste Neoxenos,

    thank you for the post. please forgive my tardiness in replying to this thread!

    interesting. if it's not a bodily thing... i think that it would be an apt description of the Tustia Heaven, which is, essentially, the plane upon which the Gods dwell. though, in truth, i'm still a bit unclear on these things.
     
  18. granni

    granni old is....new, again.

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    thank-you Vaj....

    re: "humans can only sense a small part of the spectrum."

    yes yes yes!

    and what wonders are we missing?!

    a small thing like perception makes a world of difference. wake one morning all cranky, and the world yer in seems dismal. awake joyous, and all is wonderful.
    and, that's just perception. one small aspect of what colors our view.

    add our knowing that our neighbor's reality is not ours, nor ours another neighbor's, then extend that pond ripple around the world.... and reality as one expects it to be, alters. amazingly so.

    then, throw into the mix, one's philosophy of life....and the whole mixture takes on a new blend.

    it's that awareness that most seekers seek. to learn from the teachers, then to seek what they sought.

    namaste vaj.........

    granni
     
  19. rudiger

    rudiger Member

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    THREE SOMETHING’S FROM NOTHING





    Friction energy light, due to the intention of nothing, the centre of nothing is the intention of something. (Intention of nothing is the vacuum of space, (black hole) for example if you take away something (light) what have you left? nothing, (endless dark space) the intensity of nothing is concentrated space creating (black matter.)

    It would look like a dark cloud with energy occurring in the centre like lightning, due to energy being from the friction of heat made by the intention from all point from the centre of cold space.

    The energy would travel outwards from the centre of this black thick cloud (black matter) in other wards the (black hole) and create an abode around the black hole, meaning a ring around the depth of darkness. As more masses of energy is created through the vacuum of nothing (black hole) the external abode becomes greater and greater due to the up building of energy masses, to a point of reflection inward towards the vacuum (black hole) creating forces of depth.

    In return at different pressure points (energy level of masses) come the oxidation between nitrogen and hydrogen creating ammonia and oxygen by the changing of atom tries, meaning compounds to elements due to added energy masses (changing matter forms, evolve state of being) as travelling up the chain to the abode until solid matter becomes acids liquids, gases, pure liquids and pure gases, the closer to the abode the purer the form, as senses from feeling, seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting develops by from moving up the chain with the travelling sphere we are born on, as cells, as we are in the same manner little (vacuums) for we have space of mind which we fill in by our own intentions. The word intention is from the beginning, we are created not only in the same image as or heavenly father but in the same (likeness), for he is the first and the last, the alpha and the omega, life is everlasting and light increases over comes darkness. God said to Job 38; 4 where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?

    Job 38; 21 did you come to know at that time you were being born which makes you days many,

    Meaning we are as old as this earth we develop through different stages of sense Aries due to energy masses increasing,

     
  20. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

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    this thread caught my eye, the bible is not a science book ,but the bible tells us that God is dynamic energy...

    "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? . . . Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing."—Isa. 40:26.....so God is the source of all dynamic energy

    Yes, Jehovah is "vigorous in power," and he is the Source of the "dynamic energy" used to bring the entire universe into existence......ok i will get my coat now:)

     

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