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The Master points to the moon, do we stare at his finger?
we do if we want to know what ring he's wearingPaladin said:The Master points to the moon, do we stare at his finger?
It sounds very much towards what some theists would refer to as God - God the One and Infinite.Master Vigil said:Tao is the unknowable, inconceivable force that causes everything, and is everything.
Except some theists give it gender, emotions, has god speak, etc... This is not tao.I said:It sounds very much towards what some theists would refer to as God - God the One and Infinite.
Indeed, and to some theists this would not be God - merely simplified anthropomorphism of a more complex concept.Master Vigil said:Except some theists give it gender, emotions, has god speak, etc... This is not tao.
Indeed, though I figure there are a lot more subtleties in Tao worth considering anyway...Vajradhara said:indeed, as MV points out, the Tao is qualitively different than how a god is typically described.
i suppose if you were to describe a deity with the same words as the Tao, then you might have something...
There is a way to philosophically connect certain ways of experiencing Christianity with the Tao. But you are right that it involves an understanding of Christianity that completely sheds the more "western" concepts of "God" as a personification of deity or as an independent creative identity.Vajradhara said:Namaste robocombot,
thank you for the post.
you are correct in your view that the Tao that can be Tao'ed is not the Eternal Tao.
however, i would be very hesitant to posit that this is God due to the vastly different ontological views of the Semetic traditions and traditional Chinese views, of course that is just my view.
This is my belief as well. The Tao Te Ching describes very well for me, as a Christ-follower, what it is to "know" God. The more I try to put God in a box, in a format I can understand, the less I actually am experiencing God, because God is not in a format I can understand. God is far beyond comprehension. As I let go of my expectations, I come to a place where I am silent before the Great Incomprehensible Something that is God. And in this place of silence I can receive a glimpse, recognizing that it is not the whole. Strength is found, for me, in an admission and acceptance of my weakness- that I am limited and therefore cannot "know" God, but I can still find peace and joy in my experience of this incomprehensible Being.mysticpastor said:The mystics spoke of the via positive (what we can say about God) but tended more toward the via negative (what we cannot say about God.) This is very similar to the tao that cannot be tao'ed. We can only know God, says the author of the Cloud of Unknowing, if we UNKNOW god. The more we hold to our concepts about God, the less we know about god. This seems rather consistant with the Tao.
Also Christianity and Taoism both share the concept of wu wei. Strength, in the Christian tradition, (well the biblical tradition at least) is in weakness. Christ shows his power by being silent before Pilate, and by dying.
I will end with this: Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2Anyone who claims to know something does not yet have the necessary knowledge; 3 but anyone who loves God is known by him. (Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, chapter Eight, verses 1b-3.)
tadpole said:hey cyberpeeps!
i have often thoght there was a striking resemblance between the 42nd chapter of the tao te ching and the beginning of the bibles genesis, especially in reguards to "god" and the beginning. the tao te ching states:"first there was the tao; the tao gave birth to the one; the one gave birth to the two; the two gave birth to the three; three gives birth to all things. all things are held in yin, and carry yang: and they are held together in the chi of teeming enery."
i enjoyed finding this (coming from a christian upbringing) because it so simply connected not just christianity and taoism but the genesis of all living things. cell division and bifurcation models of any kind fit into these two seemingly different doctrines.
anyhoo, thought i'd through that out there. and as they say "the tao that can be spoken is not the true tao" perhaps just as it is a sin to use the lords name in vain?
I view it as an omnipresent force that is constantly intervening. Everything that happens is Tao, everything that is, is Tao. It just isn't an intelligent being, it is the encompassment of all things.queenofsheba said:The biblical God is an intelligent being that intervenes in the world and choses sides. If you compare tao to God, it's rather the pantheist view on God, as an abstract, omnipresent force that doesn't intervene.
What if God is man's perception of Tao. Not to say the Christian God does not exist. When I say God; I mean God for all religions with deities. Man tried to define what could not be defined. We understand ego so we gave Tao ego (i.e. God, Krishna, Shiva, take your pick).Zazen said:actually the reason we see god as "human like" is because god made man in his image, and because everything we experience originates from god, therefore everything that is "human like"(or of man) is not distinguishable as unique or seperate of god, because god is the wellspring