The Prince of Peace

Discussion in 'Belief and Spirituality' started by Bruce Michael, Oct 16, 2007.

  1. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    [FONT=&quot]
    Not exactly happy families.
    Is the line about Christ bringing a sword out of place?

    Contrary to this, Matthew later states:
    "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.​
    Matthew 26:52

    Moreso than any of the other Gospels, Matthew's is one of non- violence:

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    So the line about the "Prince of Peace" bringing a sword seems out of place in Matthew.

    Uncharacteristically, Dr. Steiner agrees and tells us that this scriptural verse has been completely misquoted; implying the reverse of what was meant.
    "I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away
    the sword" is Dr. Steiner's rendering of the verse. He then continues:

    "Christ entered into the spiritual sphere of Earth-existence in order
    gradually to rescue it from elements that bring about discord and
    disharmony in mankind. Spiritual Science will establish peace when it
    is truly Christian, in the sense of bringing about the unity of
    religions. It can unite not only those in regions immediately around
    us but can establish peace over the whole Earth, because it
    understands the nature of the deed wrought by the greatest Bringer of
    peace."
    See: The Gospel of Matthew, Rudolf Steiner



    -Br.Bruce
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]"A beautiful saying in this Gospel is usually quite wrongly translated. In its true form the saying is: 'I have not come to send peace away from this Earth but to send away the sword!' The most beautiful message of peace has in the course of time been distorted into its very opposite!"
    - the Gospel of Matthew Lecture 12[/FONT]
     
  2. InLove

    InLove at peace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    3,267
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi Bruce :)

    Actually, I've been thinking quite a bit about this verse lately. As you say, it does seem to be contradictory to most of what Jesus is recorded to have said. The point you have brought up is not something with which I am familiar. That said, I'm not looking for a debate about it. I just want to offer another thought.

    The fact is that many do believe that these were Jesus's words. But I believe that if they were, the spirit in which they were offered is often misunderstood. So many see Jesus as "an angry young man". For instance, when asked about paying taxes to Caesar, many people picture Him getting all upset and "in your face" when giving the answer. But I have always pictured him with a bit of a twinkle in His eye--maybe even a wink and a smile. Likewise, folks tend to think of Jesus up on some kind of angry soapbox when He said He had not come to bring peace, but a sword, and they often use this to justify their own ideas about war for the cause of justice. Personally, I picture Jesus being very sad, if and when He said the words we are used to reading. After all, He would have known it was inevitable that families and communities would be split over His teachings.

    Again, I'm not looking to debate what you have posted, for I cannot prove whether or not these words were misquoted or mistranslated. I just wanted to offer my thoughts about it, since it has recently been very much on my mind. Just another way of looking at things.

    InPeace,
    InLove
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
  4. Dondi

    Dondi Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Matthew 10:32 (KJV)

    "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" - Luke 12:51 (KJV)


    sword = division

    That is what a sword does, divides. Why would the Prince of Peace use such words? Well, I don't think He was speaking of a literal sword, but something that does and will divide families against each other: His Word.

    "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Hebrews 4:12

    "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - I Corinthians 1:17-18

    "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." - I Peter 2:7-8

    The Word of God is either going to draw you to God or push you away. If you think that doesn't have any effect in families where some believe the Gospel and some don't, think again. I've seen it, even some in my church who have been trying to reach their family members with the Gospel, only to be rejected and ridiculed. Funny thing is, some of the same members used to be that way toward Christians before believing, yea, even my Pastor. They understand that the gospel will either accepted or rejected. But Christ doesn't call us to stop preaching it, as the disciples in Matthew 10 will discover when the word is not received, in which case they are to shake the dust off their shoes and move on.
     
  5. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    0
    If a person decided to put into pratice Jesus teachings , it goes against the grain of people in general, so that is why Jesus said he would bring a sword , he knew it would make devision even among family members . those who stick to Jesus teachings would be doing what Jesus asked them. and Jesus Followers would not join the warring nations in their wars , so they would not learn how to kill people, Jesus followers would also do what Jesus asked them, and the last thing Jesus said was GO and make disciples ....matthew 28;19-20 .....and Jesus followers would love the true God with all of their heart and the bible tells us that the true God is Jehovah . PSALM 83;18 Yes Jesus is the prince of peace because he teaches us to be peacable .
    (James 3:18) Moreover, the fruit of righteousness has its seed sown under peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.
     
  6. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    Another thread on the topic... Was Jesus being a nut case when he said:
    I think this is a perfect example of how years/decades of oral tradition varies the original. Everyone loves to quote the bible as if it were Gospel, and here with these differing versions we know we may have the essence of the thought but not often any exact quotes of Jesus.
    Yes, grasping peace, forgiveness, compassion...not an easy task for anyone...



    New International Version


    34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

    35 For I have come to turn
    " 'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law

    36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

    37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

    38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

    39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


    Another understanding

    34 Don’t for a minute imagine G-d expresses as human to do it all for you, for this path is a challenge.

    35 I have come to separate your true self from your intellect, your desires from your emotions, and seemingly rebellious ideas from the old ways.

    36 You will find all your troubles are in your head, of your own doing.

    37 If your intellectual and emotional ego ties are strong you are actively refusing the grace and glory of spirit and don’t deserve it.

    38 If you don’t untie your bonds, pull up the stake, and seek a higher consciousness, you are creating your own hell.

    39 If you wish to stay in the material world, you will – forever; but if you choose to grow from it, you will discover you have access to everything.


    A Hip Hop rendition


    34 If you thought I’d make it a breeze
    you’ll find I didn’t come to ease
    but to bring you to your knees

    35 You gotta shake off the notion
    That you can make a potion
    Or your honey has the lotion
    Cause the answer ain’t in the ocean

    36 It’s you that’s causin’ the commotion

    37 If you can’t see the forest for the tree
    You’ll never be your best
    If you refuse to learn to be

    38 Be prepared to drop all your bling
    Or I don’t owe you a thing

    39 Quit chasin the golden ring
    And find out what life will truly bring.
     
  7. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    0
    very true .
    (Matthew 10:22) And you will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.



    (Revelation 2:10) Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. Look! The Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test, and that you may have tribulation ten days. Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    (John 15:21) But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me.

    But they will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me JOHN 16;3
     
  8. cyberpi

    cyberpi Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,437
    Likes Received:
    0
    It seems to me then that Dr. Steiner stumbles blindly over the meaning of more than one parable. Those who read scripture and decide that God does not judge and / or condemn, surely must have a different version of the bible than I do.
     
  9. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Cyberpi
    It's a statement that the translation is wrong- not a parable.

    It surely states in Matthew that the Christian has the choice to "turn the other cheek", to love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you. God is a God of Judgment but also tolerance- the world is evidence of this.

    It doesn't pay to have just one version of the Bible- you might well be "backing the wrong horse" (let's say you are backing the wrong horse because all Bibles have mistakes of one kind or another in them).


    In Christ,
    Br.Bruce
     
  10. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be called “Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)
     
  11. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Messages:
    21,270
    Likes Received:
    1,689
    The book says Jesus said he came to fulfill the prophecies....he took the time to insure he did. Of course if one was Jewish they would say he didn't...and since it is their books....
     
  12. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Jesus certainly did fullfill the hebrew scriptures , but those who refused to recognise Gods representative dicided for themselves to nolonger have Gods blessing . that is why the new nation was formed, and it was a spiritual nation . The fleshly Jews had the chance to go to heaven and rule with Jesus in the heavenly kingdom goverment as kings and priests , but they lost their chance .That is not to say that individuals from the fleshly Jews did not make the right choice ,because some did recognise Jesus as fullfilling prophecy . And they are part of the spiritual nation of SPIRITUAL JEWS and they are from all nations and tribes of the earth . being a fleshly Jew is not the point anymore ,but being a spiritual Jew with the circumcision of the heart is the point .and the bible tells us that the number of these ones who will be going to heaven with Jesus is 144,000 . but the bible also tells us that a GREAT CROWD without any number will inherit the earth . and these ones also recognise Jesus as fullfilling prophecy , not only back in Jesus day but right now in this time that we are living in . and yes Jesus is the prince of peace because those who are taught and listen to Jesus are peaceful people
     
  13. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a monastery in Iraq associated with the tomb of Matthew, 20 miles north-east of Mosul.
    Dayro d-Mor Matay

    "Dair Mar Mattai is considered to be the most important Assyrian monastery in Iraq due to its religious, historical, and geographical significance. Located at the top of the famous 'Maqloub' Mountain, the monastery overlooks the magnificent fields of the Nineveh plains."

    In 1999 there were reports that the tomb of St. Matthew had been hit by bombs.

    Iraq is brimful of wonderful history- Garden of Eden, Nineveh, where Jonah is reputed to be buried, and it is the site of Babylon, home to the Tower of Babel, whose Hanging Gardens were one of the World's Seven Wonders. It is also the site of the city of Ur, hometown of Abraham, which dates back 6,000 years.

    As I stated, we find plenty of exhortations towards pacificism in St. Matthew's Gospel- I suppose that makes him the Apostle of Peace. There are such verses as:
    Rudolf Steiner tells us that Matthew's teaching belongs to the Zoroastrian stream (and there was a line of Matthews as there was a line of Zarathustras).

    Matthew's Gospel was not written in Greek like the others. It was written in the Chaldean language using Hebrew letters (this is told to us by Jerome who translated it.) The Chaldean Church is still active in Iraq.

    Dr. Steiner also indicated that sayings from the Persian Mysteries are to be found in Matthew's Gospel. It was by the Wisdom in the Persian Mysteries that Mani was able to bring to Christianity an understanding the mystery of Evil and its overcoming by the Good.

    Dr. Steiner spoke of a Persian legend about Christ passing a dead dog while his Disciples recoiled in horror at the purified flesh; our Lord remarked on the beauty of the animal's teeth.

    It seems that the Persian mysteries were full of this kind of wisdom- a true understanding of the working of good and evil.


    -Br.Bruce
     
  14. mee

    mee Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isa. 9:6, 7, World Government on the Shoulder of the Prince of Peace

    Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace"
    "To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this."—ISAIAH 9:7.

    Hail the Prince of Peace
    (Ps. 2:11, 12) As the psalmist foretold, Jehovah has installed his Son as king upon heavenly Mount Zion. Nothing in heaven or earth can successfully withstand world conquest by the reigning Prince of Peace!
     
  15. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    So that is Dr Steiner's "rendering" of the verse. How quaint. Is his "rendering" actually a valid translation of the Greek, or has he just decided to put a whole different slant on the text to make it fit in with his own viewpoint (read that as AGENDA)?
     
  16. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Friend,
    He renders the verse as it was in the original Chaldee. The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel.

    Matthew was not written in Greek.

    Greetings,
    Br.Bruce
     
  17. intrepidlover

    intrepidlover Melchizedek

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2006
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes I understand that Matthew was not written in Greek. Not being a great scholar I was not sure of the original language. Anyhow previous posts on this thread give a quite simple, clear and rational explanation of the statement by Jesus.

    A recent discussion on this verse at another website produced the same explanation as well as personal testimonies by persons whose family members became hostile towards them because of their conversion to Christianity.

    So Jesus did indeed bring a "sword" which divided people.

    You might also care to elaborate on your remark: "The other translation does not fit in with the rest of Matthew's Gospel."

    That's a pretty broad and bold statement. I invite you to prove it.
     
  18. Bruce Michael

    Bruce Michael New Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    797
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Intrepid,
    I've already posted on this thread most of the quotes from Matthew which demonstrate the flavour of Christ's message.

    I have also discussed the nature of Christ's teaching on the breaking of the blood ties in order to cultivate a greater Love on other threads.

    Shalom,
    Br.Bruce
     
  19. Torchbearer

    Torchbearer Torchbearer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Torchbearer
    I believe that Jesus did say "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" because he goes on to talk about discord among family members. My take on this is that there is discord between family members because not all people in the same family have the same values. Some relate for the enjoyment of relating, while others relate through power play. The former are part of the forces of light, while the latter are a part of the forces of darkness. And a holy war, which would only ever be started by the latter, would still have to be fought and won. The fight in everyday life is in the mind or non-physical realm (the spiritual realm) but if things go horribly wrong then it may come to an actual war. Let's believe that will never happen.
    In the second part (live by the sword will die by the sword) in the Greek (and I don't say it was originally written in Greek) it has a different sound or meaning. To say it in English would be if you knife someone you will get it back. My understanding is that Peter acted out of anger and wanted to hit back out of vengeance. That action is aggravating and arouses the other, even if they were the wrong doer to gain permission to act out more violence. I thing there are times when action is needed as in self defence but this is not about self defence but reaction.
     
  20. Torchbearer

    Torchbearer Torchbearer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Torchbearer
    I believe that Jesus did say "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" because he goes on to talk about discord among family members. My take on this is that there is discord between family members because not all people in the same family have the same values. Some relate for the enjoyment of relating, while others relate through power play. The former are part of the forces of light, while the latter are a part of the forces of darkness. And a holy war, which would only ever be started by the latter, would still have to be fought and won. The fight in everyday life is in the mind or non-physical realm (the spiritual realm) but if things go horribly wrong then it may come to an actual war. Let's believe that will never happen.
    In the second part (live by the sword will die by the sword) in the Greek (and I don't say it was originally written in Greek) it has a different sound or meaning. To say it in English would be "if you knife someone you will get it back". My understanding is that Peter acted out of anger. He was hitting back out of vengeance. Such action is aggravating and arouses the other, even if that other was the wrong doer, it now gives them permission to act out more violence. I thing there are times when action is needed as in self defence but this is not about self defence but reaction.
     

Share This Page