Discussion in 'Islam' started by wil, Nov 2, 2007.
FOX News - Friday, November 02, 2007
lol, yes, it is prescribed in Islam that you are entitled to beat your wife, lightly, if she does not do as she is told...
oh, and to be fair.,.. in the bible, women are of no more value than cattle...
ok, ok here is where I am an expert. Lets just say that this fool has to go to sleep sometime, baby and when he does, I wouldnt be surprised if he woke up with an knife across his throat.
What makes me an expert??? Brother, I could write a book abut you wouldnt believe me anyway. Yes, you can Break an animal by this kind of treatment and it happens all the time but one day or night after inflicting this kind of treatment on said wife remember you may never wake up.
Because I havent got a penis makes me a lesser person.?? CRAP. And I say bring it on mate if youve got the guts to try it. (this message is to all the previous believers of the crap mentioned by mahommed al alrifi.
I apologise to all (except the wife beaters) but this kind of stuff really makes my blood boil
Do we have any reliable statistics on spousal abuse in Islamic countries versus western?
I dont know about islamic countries, but here in Australia the average is about 4 out of every 10 women experience abuse. Its appauling. (dont know if my spelling is correct but you get my drift)
Now I'm not certain, but I think that if you ask most Muslims, they would disagree with this Saudi Dr. Phil. I'm not completely sure, but I don't think that the Koran urges men to beat their wives--well, at least not any more than the Bible does. At any rate, Dr. Phil in any culture is not the kind of person to seek advice from. Sure, he may be charismatic in a tough-guy way, and he may be a little better than Jerry Springer, but he's still Dr. Phil.
I'm looking forward to Muslimwoman's response to this one.
LOL "single Muslim".com See that advert on this thread? By the looks of it, if your a female keep it that way... Better for your health....
Yes it is written, but no preacher stands up and says it, they all have grown and moved on. Any preacher who did would be decried by the masses.
Exactly what I was looking for in my post. I am in no way denigrating your religion, I wanted your comment and discussion on this topic.
I expected you refute it, to come out and say this guy is a lunatic, there is no way we believe this is proper...we have grown.
But to my surprise no denial? 56 views on the Islamic board...two posts by you and no denial? The silence and your comparison to Christian literature indicates agreement?
Wil, look at who you quoted. It isn't Farhan.
yikes, my bad, but it appears my thought still stands.
Was going to say... You can obviously see there is a mistake he quoted Francis yet used the word silence..... That is an impossible mathematical equation :\
His throat? I would think the knife would be, um, elsewhere.
Bob, Bob Bob Bobby Bob Bob! No! Bob, no... Always mentioning the jewels. You sure you are not a woman? You don't even threaten the male parts even in jessssst! If it's not a woman creeping up on ya while you sleep, it's taking too many substances and having to have them removed.... :\ I thought it was only women who didn't understand that :| Going on about try having a baby wah wah wah.. Try getting kicked in zee freaking nuts.....
Muslims are only allowed to 'lightly beat' their wives under the following circumstances:
If a wife gets upto some major disobedience, such as hanky panky with another man, then first the husband should admonish her verbally; if that takes no effect; i.e, if that is not enough for the wife to repent and ammend her ways, then he should not share her bed, and even if that is not enough... only then should he lighty beat her, and this light beating is so light, that it should not leave any marks on her body; it should be on a fleshy part of her body [excluding the face] and it should be so light, that it should resemble "a light tap that leaves no mark"; and that is exactly how the prophet [saw] described the word 'beat' in the Quran...
Infact, some would argue that "a light tap that leaves no mark" can hardly be called a beating at all; so that is why the Scholars have said that it is not the actual 'beating' that admonishes the woman [because it's hardly a beating at all] but it is the humiliation from that "light tap" that admonishes her.
This action of light beating which is done as a 'last resort', is undertaken in order to try save the marriage... for if a "light tap" manages to bring the wife back on the 'straight and narrow', then husband and wife can live happily together again and there will be no need for divorce; if however divorce is pursued rather then trying the last resort of "light tap", then the harm the divorce could cause to all involved...could be potentially great.
The law of a country would supercede this shariah sanctioned act, thus a man should not even lightly beat his wife...in countries that dont allow it.
Hope that helps
The verb Muhammad uses in the Qur'an is "to drub". It is sometimes claimed that d-r-b does not have the same meaning as the related "drub" in English, but the Qur'an does not give any further explanation.
Okay here we go.
Chris the statistics for Saudi are off the scale and I have seen pictures of a tv personality whose husband beat her until she was unrecognisable as a human face. The police said they could do nothing as it was her 'husband that beat her' - well bloody hell that makes it okay then.
This silly attitude is countered by Pakistani scholars that state you should beat your wife with a peacock feather, as it is about turning to a right path, not causing pain.
As with most things we should go back to the origins. I can show you a thousand websites that say this verse says 'men are better than women so beat/scourge them' that is it - here is the real verse:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). (4:34)
Please note it says devoutly obedient, not obedient to the husband but obedient to the faith and teachings of Allah. What we would guard in our husbands absence is obviously our bodies and our husbands property, including business dealings. As with most issues, if we return to behaving correctly then there is no punishment of any kind.
There is constant wrangling over what the word daraba means (Arabic is a complex language and it can mean tap, walk in stride, to have verbal intercourse and to beat lightly).
So how did the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) interpret this verse? There is a hadith considered authentic by all schools (and even by little old me ), wherein the Prophet said:
"Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
I personally believe this hadith to be true because it is in keeping with the Prophets treatment and attitude to women (may Allah bless him). We know from hadiths that the Prophet once refused to go to any of his wives, as they had been behaving very badly. He shut himself off from them for days (off the top of my head I believe it was 28 or 29 days). They all amended their ways and he returned to them, there are no records of him hitting any of his wives no matter how angry with them he was. There are also a couple of hadiths that specifically say 'do not beat your wives' but of course some scholars ignore these in favour of their oppressive behaviour.
The word daraba is used numerous times in the Quran and the meaning translates as 'to make something known to you' and 'to set something right' and 'set forth' in other verses. So how anyone translates this into beat her but no more than 10 times a day is beyond understanding and is clearly only desire for oppression of women.
All sin in Islam is given a strict punishment but so many conditions to applying a punishment, giving us the opportunity to avoid this punishment. As you can see from the verse we are not talking about beating a wife if your dinner isn't ready on time. It is for wives that behave in a lewd way (eg flirting with the butcher or giving your customers away to the fella down the road she hopes to 'impress').
The refusing to share their bed may sound like a small thing in todays society but remember that this is for a full month and if my husband did this he would sleep with his family, not in our home, therefore showing the whole town I have behaved in a bad way (not very nice at all as reputation is paramount to a Muslimah, I would die of shame if my husband publicly refused to share my bed for a month).
This 'beating' as a last resort cannot leave a mark on the body, most reasonable scholars now say it should be a slap on the behind as this is the only way not to leave a mark on a body. You cannot cause bleeding, break bones or leave a bruise. You cannot hit the face or any sensitive part of the body. Doesn't leave much does it?!
In reality what normally happens is the parents of the wife come to visit and give her hell (if anyone hits her it is usually the mother - the women are generally more vicious than the men). Remember this is a matter of reputation, flirting may be seen as fun in the west but to Muslims it is just one step from committing adultery and yes we should stop people from going down that road.
So what about men, can they just do as they like? NO WAY. Against popular belief, Islam is not set up to interfere in each others lives, it is a favour if you stop someone you know committing a sin, as this sin will be judged when they die. Let's take an example, my hubby when we first married used to letch at girls (old habits are hard to break ) and I often saw his friends touch his wedding ring when he did this, they never said a word but would just touch his ring and my hubby would look very embarrassed and make a fuss of me for a full hour. So the men largely police themselves in my experience. Men live their lives more publicly in our societies, so this system tends to work for them. Women on the other hand live their lives more privately so these matters are dealt with by family.
Yes, as with other societies we have wife beaters in Islam but this is their violent streak not a true teaching of the faith. Even some extreme clerics state that if a man leaves a mark on his wife he must be arrested and punished, even if the wife forgives the husband this is not to be accepted and the man must be punished so he is never tempted to be a bully again. Saudi and Afghanistan are a whole different ballgame.
I happen to know my hubby would rather cut off his arm than hit me and a large part of this is his faith, his father is also very offended by wife beaters (it is a shame they don't have the same attitude to daughters). If I ever started flirting with the butcher I would expect him to be bloody furious but I know he would simply drag me off to the mosque for a damn good nagging by the Imam. If I carried on he would move to his parents until I saw the error of my ways and then as a last resort would divorce me if I carried on. Personally by then I think I would deserve a damn good slap on the behind!!
One other aspect of Muslim mindset is that most men these days see it as a weakness to bully women and their pride is everything. To be honest when men in our town beat their women they somehow go to work the next day with a black eye and split lip!!!!!!! I know my hubby has come home with grazed knuckles a couple of times because of his female cousin and he gets full marks from me as bullies understand nothing else (and I haven't seen any marks on his cousin since the last episode.
So I make no apology for this, it is to protect us and our society from going down a wrong road. We are given plenty of opportunity to amend our ways and I see it as a warning more than anything. There are so many verses and hadiths that say to treat your wives well. As usual Islam gives us a blessing and certain Muslims turn it into something very ugly. (why isn't there a crying smilie??).
Here are a couple of examples of the different attitudes:
This one is a total git, that says beat your wife, to teach her discipline, if she doesn't make your dinner as soon as you get home because women are made from a crooked rib
YouTube - Debate on Wife Beating as instructed in Quran
Here is the other side of the coin:
YouTube - Sheikh Yusuf Estes: Beat Women in Islam? Their High Value
I leave you with these wise words - see if you can guess who said them:
"the best of you are those who are best to you wives"
Separate names with a comma.