Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

Discussion in 'Islam' started by wil, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    I know it maybe forbidden but surley people still do it... I mean eyes seriously do have a mind of their own... I sometimes could get in trouble with them.. I have mastered the skill of moving your eyes but not your neck... Takes a few years to perfect, but it is a skill I am proud of... Because it is something that... Just happens!
     
  2. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Of course it still happens, we are only human but the important thing is to try not to do it or at least feel ashamed when you do and try not to do it again.

    One interesting thing I have noticed since my conversion is how I see other people. I can now appreciate the beauty of a young girl without feeling jealous and I can look at a handsome man and think 'his wife is lucky'. The urges change, what is important changes. Now if I happen to notice the butchers ass, purely by accident of course, I go and snog my hubby and thank Allah I have a good husband instead of flirting with the butcher. I have become so much more appreciative of what I have.
     
  3. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    I just love the colloquialism "snog".
    It has such a deliciously salacious ring to it.

    flow....:p
     
  4. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    It is one of my favourites too. I wish I hadn't mentioned it though, I haven't seen my hubby for months now and he is just so snoggable. :(
     
  5. wil

    wil UNeyeR1 Moderator

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    Namaste 17th, sometimes I just don't understand your questions. As I see it, if one were going to the butcher to select a nice cut of rump round roast, I would think the next question would be whether it were cut from cow, goat, mule or ass. And while I do think it a good cut of meat, not the best choice of animal; ass has a notoriously tough rump from sacrificially taking the surrogate beatings. But despite all the above and the fact that I am a vegetarian, if my wife were headed to the butcher to bring this home, I would expect her to check out the ass prior to purchase of same.

    And thank you MW, providing all sides of the discussion, a commentary on the OP, clips from pro and con, and your understanding. I'd expect no less from you and appreciate it.
     
  6. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    You are welcome Wil. I asked my hubby about last night thinking I would post his comments but I am not allowed to post language like that (he is not a big fan of the Saudi's). ;)

    I haven't forgotten about the other thing, just so busy trying to get my business up and running before I go home in 4 weeks - YAY.
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Wil, I simply heard that the Local butcher keeps a nice ass outside the back and you can feed it carrots and it will let you pat it on the head.... I love going round the back to pat the ass.
     
  8. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    But would you like it if your wife went round the back to pat his ass? ;)
     
  9. flowperson

    flowperson Oannes

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    wil...The proper way to cook a tough ass roast is to thoroughly season it, sear and brown it on all sides in a heavy dutch oven, toss in a chopped onion and about four cloves of chopped garlic, pour about one half bottle of Soave in the pot, and cover to simmer on low heat for about three hours.

    After about two hours, uncover and fill the oven with skinned and cleaned root vegetables of your choice, season as desired, recover, and simmer for another hour before serving. The ass should be thoroughly cooked to moist and juicy perfection and be fork cut tender.

    Oh, and the drippings will make an excellent brown gravy with a little thickening and a brisk whisking.

    flow....:p
     
  10. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    Yuk, enough with the cooking animals please. Just pat the ass and be done with it but dont kill it and eat it.
     
  11. Sean H.

    Sean H. Well-Known Member

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    I'm a Bahai. Please feel free to discuss on the Bahai forum. :) I don't want to infringe on the Islam forum.

    I think the topic has been discussed fairly well here. :cool:
     
  12. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Oh I'd beat her to an inch of her life! lol.....

    Heaven forbid for a thread on CR to go off topic! Good call man!


    -----edit-----
    Just to clear that up because some people that will have gone over their head.... It was a joke...

    -----edit-----
    So was the wife comment....
     
  13. greymare

    greymare Well-Known Member

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    Mmmmmmm rump roast and gravy. i feel sorry for all the veges out there.
     
  14. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    And I feel sorry for your arteries :p
     
  15. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Nup, not fair...
     
  16. Abdullah

    Abdullah Well-Known Member

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    Hi peeps :)

    Now there are indeed different root meanings [but simmilar?] that could be put to the word 'beat' [daraba] in verse 4:34 of the Quran..., but the traditional Scholars have interpreted it to be 'lightly hit' in the manner and circumstance explained eariler and the hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] have corraborated this meaning; however this is a mere permission and not even a reccomendation for in Islam it is better not to hit a wife under any circumstances.

    Since this permission to 'lightly hit' wives in the manner and under the circumstances mentioned, is given in the Quran itself and corraborated with hadiths, and since it is the traditional view that is held by the Islamic Scholars I feel a bit compelled to defend any notion that there is something unjust about this permissability.

    I was discussing this issue on another forum and and have answered some of the obejections and arugments raised at this Islamic ruling and in the process have hopefully shown the justice and wisdom of how there is nothing wrong with this ruling, although not hiting a wife under any circumstances is better.

    I'll copy and paste these posts [including the original objections and arguments that I responded to] below so you all can glean the insights from them inshAllah...

    I had posted what I posted earlier on this thread and got this response:

    So you are admitting that Muslim men are allowed to beat their wives. Disgraceful.

    First, any man who would 'lightly beat' a woman for any reason needs to be locked up. That is indefensible.

    Second, is the wife allowed to lightly beat a man if he commits 'hanky panky'?

    My answer:

    "A light tap that leaves no mark" can hardly be called a beating at all, and when exercised in the context which I explained, it mitigates it even more.

    When we consider divine revelation, we should ponder over wether there is anything wrong with it from a religious point of view and not judge it by the man-made doctrine.

    Who are we to say that God and His Messenger are wrong in their judgement?; surley we dont think that mans personal sense of right and wrong [as the man-made ideologies are] is better than Gods judgment of right and wrong?

    Here is the Quranic verse of which I put into perspective...in my above post:

    4:34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    All the above verse [in regards to lightly hitting women] basically means is that, lightly hitting a wife in the circumstances explained, is permitted, but it is better not to hit at all.

    And here are some excerpts from Islamonline.com and Sunnipath.com:

    2. Has the phrase 'wadribuhunna' in 4:34 normally been interpreted as a command or has it been interpreted as more of a recommendation?

    Not even a recommendation. Al-Razi said in his Tafsir on 4:34 (1308/1891 edition 3:222): "Al-Shaf`i said: 'wa al-darbu mubah, wa al-tarku afdal - and hitting is permitted, but not hitting is preferable.'"

    The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Do not hit the maidservants of Allah!" (la tadribu ima' Allah). Then `Umar (RA) came to the Prophet (pbuh) and said [NB: by way of exaggeration, cf. `Awn al-Ma`bud]: "The women are rebelling (dha'irna) against their husbands!" So the Prophet (pbuh) GAVE A DISPENSATION (rakhkhasa) to beat them. Whereupon women started pouring in to see the family of the Messenger of Allah and complain about their husbands. Seeing this, the Prophet (pbuh)said: "Many women have poured in to see the family of Muhammad, complaining of their husbands, and *the latter are certainly not the best of you*." Narrated from Iyas ibn `Abd Allah ibn Abi Dhubab by al-Shafi`i in his Musnad, Abu Dawud, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, al-Tabarani in al-Kabir, and al-Hakim. Al-Nawawi and al-Suyuti graded it a sound (sahih) narration in Riyad al-Salihin [RS-281] and al-Jami` al-Saghir respectively.

    [my comments] The above hadith shows that it is permissable to hit women in the circumstances and manner explained, but those who do resort to this are not the best of Muslims, therefore it can be derived from this hadith that it is permissable to hit women in the manner and circumstances explained, but it is better not to hit them at all under any circumstances.

    The Prophet (pbuh) expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim).

    [my comments] The above hadith refers to men who beat women unjustly, i.e, men who beat women in ways and circumstances other then is allowed.

    A hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: "Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY (fahisha mubina = adultery). If they do, then refuse to share their beds and beat them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE (fadribu hunna darban ghayra mubarrih*). Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=612&CATE=10

    "According to the Qur'an the relationship between the husband and wife should be based on mutual love and kindness. Allah says: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect." (Ar-Rum: 21)

    The Qur'an urges husbands to treat their wives with kindness. [In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not to overlook her positive aspects]. Allah Almighty says:


    “Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.” (An-Nisa’: 19)

    It is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband in the house. He is the head of the household, and she is supposed to listen to him. But the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute among them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to batch up the rift and solve the differences.

    However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

    The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

    It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

    Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

    It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."


    Wife Beating in Islamic Perspective - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

    Another response by a critic:

    Hi ...,

    That is the most hilarious non-rebuttal I have ever read. What you basically said is that Islam does give men the right to beat their wives but at the same time urges them not be too violent. Therefore Muslim women must constantly trust in the good nature of Muslim men to not beat them.


    My answer:

    That is not correct...and you know it... The light 'beating' that should resemble 'a light tap that leaves no mark' on a fleshy part of the body [so any pain [if any is felt at all] is minimised] , excluding the face, is permitted only in the circumstance where the wife becomes rebbellious in a major way, and it can be implemented if the step of verbal admonishing and not sharing of the bed fails to end the rebbellion.

    So unless the wife gets upto any major disobedience, then she doesn't have to fear a beating from the husband at all, and if she does get upto major disobedience [such as adultery, etc,] then even then she doesn't have to fear what is described commonly as a 'beating', for 'a light tap that leaves no mark' is hardly a beating at all...even after all of that, she has the safe-guarding of the Islamic teaching that not to even lighty beat a wife under such or any circumstances is better for a man, and the additional principle that a Muslim has to abide by the law of the country that he lives in, so if a country prohibits by law this Islamic permissability, then this prohibition will overide the permissability...

    Now what would a person normally do if he finds out that his wife has commited adultery?, some may try and admonish their wives verbally, or not share her bed and see if their wife will repent and change her ways, and if that does not work, many would probably seek divorce and as we all know, divorce can have major harmfull consequences for those that are directly involved [the husband and wife and children] so if a last resort of a subjection to humiliation by the means of a "light tap that leaves no mark" sorts things out for the couple, then would it be fair to take that permissibility away in such a circumstance?

    And is it really injusitce on a woman to be subjected to humiliation [as a means to repenting and changing her ways, and so that husband and wife may have a chance at living harmoniously again] by the means of the 'light tap' in the circumstance and manner that Islam permits?

    Nuff said inshAllah.


    Hope this helps guys

    peace :)
     
  17. Abdullah

    Abdullah Well-Known Member

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  18. Saltmeister

    Saltmeister The Dangerous Dinner

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    Hey, grey.

    You don't have to hold a knife up to a man's throat to make him feel vulnerable. Vulnerability is a frequent occurence in the life of men. We just don't express the condition as often as women do.

    If you're a victim of domestic violence that's a sign of vulnerability. As men aren't always good at expressing themselves and aren't that good at finding resolutions for emotional problems, violence is sometimes the solution.

    Women have more white matter in their brain. I guess that allows women to see "more of the big picture" and therefore to be able to reason better emotionally and find resolutions for emotional problems. Men have more grey matter in their brain, which I take to mean that we're "more focused" in our thinking.

    I guess it's just easier for a woman to bring emotional issues into the foreground so they can be resolved. I believe it has a lot to do with the abundance of white matter in women's brains. Men would be more reluctant to bring emotional issues into the foreground due to the fact that they have less white matter in their brain. Life throws a lot of decisions at you and because of the number of decisions that have to be made, we just can't deal with it all at once. The "foreground" is already occupied. No room for emotional issues. Violence and aggressive behaviour are signs that a man wants to get a fight over and done with so he can focus on other things.

    When one criticises a man over something he doesn't want to bring into the foreground, one starts to do emotional damage. He wants you to just shut up so he can get on with his life. He isn't ready for this . . . he just can't take anymore of it. His mind is overloading.

    All of a sudden he feels vulnerable. People are criticising him, judging him. Their expectations of him are too high. He can't keep up with the demands or standards. People are getting in his way, stopping him from being the man he wants to be.

    Vulnerability. We can only take so much. We're not as high and mighty as we make out to be.:eek: It's only because people have such high expectations of us. They put us under pressure to hold our heads high and not fall . . .

    Violence against women is a sign of vulnerability. Hey -- it's your job as a woman to probe deeper. You're good at finding emotional resolutions. Violence is a sign that you don't know him well enough -- you and him haven't connected well enough. Reach out and touch him -- he needs you. He feels vulnerable and needs an ally. You're his ally. Don't be his opponent.:eek: Pardon me for saying this . . . but . . . You may have more white matter in your brain, see more of the big picture and be better at resolving emotional issues, but it doesn't mean that . . . you have to be patronising because you're more articulate than men.:mad::eek:

    He feels vulnerable because he can't take your criticism. You feel vulnerable because he's stronger than you and is now beating you up. The brawn starts beating up the brain.

    But let's just rewind things a little . . . to the point where he's on the verge of breaking down, desperate and broken. At this point, you don't have to be vulnerable. It's not you that's vulnerable -- it's him. This is your chance to use your qualities as woman to "tame the beast" (so to speak). This is when you can start addressing his vulnerabilities. He'll cool down and become less aggressive.

    If you treat a man as an enemy, he'll treat you as an enemy too. Men have an implicit persecution complex. For men, life is a war. We were born to fight the dragons and demons. The world is full of predators. In a world of conflict and adversity, we look for allies. When you first met him, he saw you as an ally. When he believed you had turned against him, he started seeing you as an adversary rather than an ally, a confidant. He shared his secrets with you, so now you know where to hurt him. He fights with you because he believes you are using your personal knowledge of him to hurt him.

    If we fight each other, we will both turn out to be losers in the end. If you are nice to him, you may find that, as well as fighting his dragons and demons, he can fight your's too. He is as much as your ally as you are his. The marriage was meant to seal the alliance for good . . . so you can fight wars against a common enemy.:)

    If you're a woman, are you invincible? This is how you achieve . . . invincibility. Men and women reach their full potential when they know how to deal with each other.:)

    Edit: Oh, btw since you often end your messages with "love the grey," I just thought I might say this: Love the white!!!!:D
     
  19. Muslimwoman

    Muslimwoman Coexistence insha'Allah

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    I cannot see the point in lightly beating a dead body (you do believe rajm is the punishment for adultery don't you Abdullah?). So please enlighten me as to why you think this verse refers to adultery, if the punisment for adultery is either 80 lashes or death (depending if you believe Allah or the scholars) what would be the point in a light tap that leaves no mark if you have blood pouring down your back from the 80 lashes or you are in fact dead?

    While you are back on please could you explain to me why dead bodies get married? As you assert that the penalty for adultery is rajm, why does the Quran state that an adulteror or adulteress can only marry an adulteror/adulteress?
     
  20. greymare

    greymare Well-Known Member

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    Oh MY GOD, are you for real Salty???????? basically the man in your argument is a victim???? CR-P. Without quoteing and requoting everything you said. Ill try to respond and try to make sense. OK? Where do I start??? You have assumed that the female was a critical person basically driving this poor man to erupt in violence. and because we are the nuturing one, the thinking one that we should look for a resolution to this problem. When the male of the species drinks every second night (yes, look at the calendar) for various reasons as (its really hot today, its really cold today, Im bored, there is too much to do. your family **** me. why dont your family talk to me?...)Then you want to get critical believe me you really really want to get critical but you say for your own safety. thats ok what would you like for tea? thank god you didnt ask anything about where hes sbeen or where his wage has gone or who that woman was that rang up looking for him? Next you get to spend the next few hours running around the house, yard shed whatever, trying to persuade him that you can thinkd f0r yourself, and you can cook tea without asking him every 5 minutes what he would like. Being chased with a cricket bat isnt much fun. But I can tell you this, I can out think him and I have had to and it was only when i noticed my boys trying to ment6ally stay ahead of him and not get beat up that I broke.
    the mental torture of continuous beating and personal degredation can break you but its also about self control. I have it . I have HAD to have it. If I didnt have it I would be locked up. I have only bveen albe to be critical now because its been 10 years since I was in that relationship. If you can call it that. ten years is a long time thankfully . but it still has scars. I couldnt say anything out of line to him back then, one day Ill catch up with him then Ill have a few words to say.

    My point is.......... When he is at fault. he IS at fault.
     

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