Christmas on December 25th?

Yeah, I figure the clock is ticking. Just an hour left to go to read stuff here on the East coast ... and thanks to those pesky Mayans, we don't get to have Christmas at all this year! ;) :p
"That is an interesting twist to the story. Is it possible Christmas was placed on December 25th, because that was the Solstice at that time?"
Possible. But there is one more possibility. 'Birth Day of Sol Invictus' is a 6000 year old tradition, the date of which has moved by three months in that period. Actually it is the celebration of Spring Equinox. Equinoxes move one year in 25,000 years and hence, 3 months in 6,000 years. Spring Equinox was the beginning of the year for many Aryan people. Indian Aryans changed the beginning of the year repeatedly. It is recorded in the Vedas. They corrected the calendar, where as the Greeks and Romans never did that (we are already overdue for another correction. Delays always happen and that too is recorded. The orthodox are reluctant to change). Why would anyone have the 'Birthday of Sol Invictus' in the darkest portion of the year?
"Is it possible Christmas was placed on December 25th, because that was the Solstice at that time?"

--> It was placed on the 25th because the Winter Solstice was on the 22nd in those days. (22+3=25) The early Christians wanted to stress the idea of Jesus rising from the dead after three days. Likewise, they are "saying" that Jesus arose (was born) three days after the darkest day of the year. The Winter Solstice can be interpreted as being the darkest day of the year.
What I've always heard was it was to separate those pagans, can't have some bacchanalian festival lasting for days at such a somber time. So they had to choose, and be identified and ostracized, of course today, eat, drink, be merry, gluttony and materialism have won back out.

Now the Greeks have a different day yes? But still far from Jesus's supposed real birthdate.

I went for a walk in the woods and celebrated with the pagans this was quite rituals go. We surely can't condemn them for their 'silly rituals and beliefs', we have enough of our own.
I actually could care less what was of Pagan origin and what wasn't.

Bad wording the above, I do have an interest in Pagan traditions and have no issues respecting their beliefs.

But in regards to Christmas, Easter, or any day of the year I think it is the rememberance, not of the event, but that we have another chance to realize the Christ within. From Paul, I die daily, and put the mind in Christ in you. Reminding us that we grow, we need to shed the old skin and try to be better people on a regular basis. Whatever it takes to do that, whatever your method is, it is worthwhile.

One freaks because of wreaths or trees or bunnies or eggs, so be it, don't have em, don't participate. Others enjoy the fun around it, if it helps, awesome, if not let it go.

At church we have the kids and adults write letters to G!d at Christmas time. Like our letters to Santa requesting what we want as gifts and how good we been, letters to G!d are to indicate how good we want to be and how we'd like to use the gifts G!d has already provided, Love, Wisdom, Renunciation, Faith, Order, etc. Then the church sends the letter back to us in July, a reminder of our intentions, giving us the rest of the year to catch up.

Whatever it takes to learn to love your nieghbor is alright with me.

What you said about Christmas in 08 is a bit different then our discussion the other month, right?
If you mean my rant against deception? My pet peeve about being lied to by those in authority who know full well that what they are saying and promoting is a falsehood?


My Sunday School students are fully aware of the fact that Christmas is not Jesus's birthday, and we discuss discrepancies in the bible, but the power and value in the mythology. They are aware of the pagan influence to our current holydays and the underlying story and contemplation that is valuable to them.
Some reflections on a bumped thread ...

One must put down one's baggage if one wants to be free.

The enduring myths of Antiquity endure because they clothe concepts that are otherwise too abstract to conceive. The ephemeral myths of Modernity do just the reverse, they render the sublime quite mundane and void of any real transcendent meaning.

I would have thought the Christmas/Solstice, Christmas/Sol Invictus, Christmas/Must Be Some Other Reason Other Than A Christian One speculations would have long ago been put to bed, but they endure even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

Conspiracy Theories are the superstitions of the secular.
Conspiracy theories??? We KNOW Jesus was not born on the 25th of December or anywhere within few months of that date....

At least this is what we know from that book called the bible.

So how exactly is that a conspiracy theory??

What is the reason the date is so far from his birth in your vernacular?
Conspiracy theories???
I was referring to your view of the Church and the 'grand deception' you see it practising on you.

My point is, you're so full of bitterness and blame, it colours your judgement. You see everything orthodox in a negative light.


the Church? As if capitalizting it makes it divine? Ex Catholics are bitter when they find out the truth..that the catechism they've been fed has no basis in fact. They are bitter and blame... I observe. I do my best to teach those around me that our Christmas rituals are fulll of so called pagan symbolism, that his birthday isn't even close to Christmas...and now since you've enlightened me, that the whole maundy thurs, good friday is all just for the story as well and we really don't have a handle on that as well.

Yes. One day you will see all this baggage is getting you nowhere.

if capitalizting it makes it divine?
Just a mark of my respect, that's all. Sorry if that is something else that offends you?

Ex Catholics are bitter when they find out the truth..that the catechism they've been fed has no basis in fact.
About Christmas?

You're living in a fantasy, Wil.
(BTW: what does the catechism actually say about Christmas, have you ever looked?)

They are bitter and blame... I observe.
You were an observer once, then a collector, now you are a conduit. I bet it's uncanny how many such stories you hear, isn't it?

And from this you assume Catholics fall into two categories:
Those who have 'seen the light' and are now ex, and bitter, poisonous, etc.
And the rest, who are still deluded.

I do my best to teach those around me that our Christmas rituals are fulll of so called pagan symbolism, that his birthday isn't even close to Christmas...
So you pass on your complaints, your blame, your bitterness.

Again Thomas, you seem to enjoy telling me what I think....

I'm not in a fantasy, I hear ex Catholics complain about the teaching they received in Catholic School, and the hypoccrisy they see in their 'Church'. Of course I also know many Catholics that make the same complaints and have no interest in leaving the fold...and those that thoroughly enjoy and are ensconsed it in it all. And even another category...the returned Catholics...those who left disgruntled with the pomp and cirucmstance...yet reuturned for the pomp and circumstance....becaue the rtual of their youth was comforting in their older age....(that and they heard the word differently now, with new winekins)

But blame? bitterness? too funny.
Another year has come and gone. Once again it is December 22nd. Time to bump this thread for another year.

I would like to add that, in my belief system, Jesus symbolizes our universe and Mary symbolizes "the material from which universes are constructed". So, for me, Christmas is a time to say, "Happy birthday, universe!"
Never having seen this thread before I went back to the beginning to see what it was all about. Ironic that a holiday meant for peace and harmony should result in such a divicive thread!

Whether or not it is Christ's Mass, i.e his date of birth I do not know. That it has been a Holy Day since Pagan times is certainly true. That it is today celebrated as a Holy Day both by Christians and Pagans, though for different reasons, is also true.

Surely that is enough is it not? Celebrate this day as Holy, for whatever reason you choose. And if that is not your thing, celebrate it not. December 25th should be your day for your reasons.

As should every other day of the year! What a concept!
Thomas quotes
"One of the reasons for selecting December 25 is from early Christian cosmology. Sextus Julius Africanus (c220AD) speculated that the world was created on March 25th, based on his chronology of Jewish and Christian history. He suggested that Christ was conceived on that date, as with the Incarnation, a new creation began. This would place His birth in December."

Come now Thomas. Do you personally believe this? Or just wanted to post longer, thus adding 3rd party conjectures. An at any rate what does "the World" comprises, meaning THIS universe, or our planet Earth? Do you suppose there was some schedule set up by the Archangels to do this by March the 25th? Or all bonuses will be cut?
Come now Thomas. Do you personally believe this?
Well I believe this was one of the views that determined the date for Christianity. It's not the one I would put first, no ... but that's not the point.

Based on the evidence, and the significant and erroneous assumptions on which contrary arguments are based, it's clear to me a pagan holiday was simply transposed into the Christian calendar. All the material evidence points to the contrary.

From the 6th century on we did, but 3rd century ... no.
It is likely that Jesus was born under the sign of Pisces, so I guess sometime in the Spring..I do not have problem with Dec 25, just that so many Christian embrace ignorance and clueless about this...some actualy think Santa is the Devil because of the red coat etc....
There is a little bit of a silver lining to all of this. First, let’s take a look at what Christmas is supposed to be. Christmas is supposed to be a time of fun, celebrating, a big tree with lots of presents under it, wide-eyed children trying to guess what their presents are, having parties, putting up beautiful decorations, visiting friends and relatives, having big and happy family get-togethers, going caroling, joining in big Christmas carol singalongs in church, etc.
But let’s face for many people, Christmas is none of these things, especially for people who do not have small children. I had a hard time getting used to this. I did have some great Christmases when I was a small child, but when I became an adult I found myself reminiscing about the great Christmases of my childhood, and feeling let down that Christmas just isn’t as much fun as it used to be.
Here is where the December 25th question comes in. I now know that Jesus was probably not born on December 25th, that that date was probably chosen by some committee somewhere, and that the real December 25th in ways really is just another day. So now, when I think of December 25th, it IS in many ways just another day of the year, not a special day foistered on us, blasphemously, by lieing church leaders.
I have now gotten to the point where December 25th is, in many ways, just another day, and I find this works very well for me.

I am also lucky to be in China, in that there are practically no signs of Christmas in every store, on every corner, and in every TV show and TV commercial, and I like it this way just fine. (In China, KFC's and Starbucks have small Christmas trees and play Christmas carols, but that's about it.)

I agree that Jesus was more likely a Pisces. His message is that of the fisherman (Pisces), and the previous age, that of the bull (Aries) is seen clearly in the things of ancient Egypt. And yes, we have entered the age of Aquarius, which brings up a whole different set of questions.