There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just like regular acts, random and spontaneous acts are also CAUSED by the influences that motivated us to to make that kind of choice.

    No acts "just happend." All of them were CAUSED to occur by the internal and external influences that made us "randomly" or "spontaneously" choose one choice over another.

    It was not possible that we could have randomly or spontaneously chosen anything other than what we did choose at that particular split second in time all influences remaining equal.
     
  2. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Advocates of free will commandeer the word “choice” (and its synonyms) and boldly incorporate the thought of avoidability into the term itself, even though this is actually no part of the meaning of any volitional synonym. Instead it is merely what most believe to be true concerning human choice.

    This extremely common practice is completely unwarranted, and leads to much error. For a choice is simply that which is chosen or selected; man’s opinion as to whether or not choices are avoidable forms no part of the meaning of the word itself and should not be forced into it.

    It is most unwise to impose the idea of “avoidability” onto the word “choice,” as if this somehow validated the concept of freewill choice. To do so is both linguistically incorrect and logically fallacious. It is also unfair, and exposes its own prejudice.

    The will was only "free" to choose whatever our reasoning decided was the choice we preferred the MOST. It is not even possible that we could have chosen anything else at that particular split second in time.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  3. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Humanity definitely has "a will of their own."
    But they always chose the choice that they wanted the MOST.
    It is not even possible, at that particluar split second in time, that they could have chosen anything that they did not want the MOST.

    The will was only "free" to have chosen what they wanted the MOST and they could not have chosen anything else.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  4. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothing "can become preferred by the act of choosing."
    The reasonings that caused us to prefer one choice over another always came before the choosing actually started. It is not even possible that we could have chosen differently than our reasonings convinced us we wanted to choose the MOST at the particular split second in time that we actually did the choosing.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  5. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Free" will is an illusion.

    Causality has always been true.

    Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.

    It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

    It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
    A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
    But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

    Here is how James Coram puts it:
    "In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

    We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
    Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
    For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

    One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
    Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  6. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    249
    Spontaneous emission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Virtual particle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If these things can commit spontaneous acts and muddy up the separation between cause and effect, then who's to say that it is not possible for this sort of thing to occur within our minds as well, especially when you consider how consciousness and observation can perturb these processes. (See Young's two slit experiment)
     
  7. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Spontaneous acts" are CAUSED acts, just like all other acts are.
    There is no "muddied up separation between cause and effect" in our acts.

    Every act we ever did was in response to the strongest influence on our mind.
    It was not even possible that we could have done anything else at that particular split second in time.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,172
    Likes Received:
    444
    Hey Bob.

    I believe I understand what he's saying too, and don't agree with it either. Now I see he is attempting to put the notion of lack of accountability towards my side of the field, which makes no logical sense. Accountability is predicated on will and action. Without will, we are merely automatons...nothing more than puppets without any accountability.

    The reference I posted really surprised me, as to just how many denoms apparently have concepts that agree more or less with Roger. But I also find that the reasoning seems to me about as antiquated as the flat earth reasoning, or believing the sun revolves around the earth.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,172
    Likes Received:
    444
    Finally, one point in which we agree. I agree free will / choice leads to error...in Christianity that is called "sin." I hasten to add that not every choice leads to sin, but without choice there is no sin.

    Therefore, "avoidability" as you call it, is not built into choice. More rather avoidability is built into the lack of choice. We can choose our behaviors, what we cannot choose are the consequences of our behaviors. *That* is what I *do* see frequently today, but not typically among Christians, those who want their cake and to eat it too. There are those that believe they can do as they wish and disregard the consequences, or cry foul when the consequences catch up with them. The blame game of pinning responsibility anywhere else except where it originates has become a favorite game today...but the blame game does not have its roots in Christianity.
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,172
    Likes Received:
    444
    Well then you contradict yourself. Humanity cannot have a will "of their own," by definition "free will," if their will is governed by an outside agency.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  11. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    God imposes accountability on everyone.
    The idea that it would not be "right" for God to hold us accountable for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

    God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

    Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will then eradicate them from existence.
    THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    evil.html


     
  12. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    Humanity has a "will" alright.
    They always voluntarily chose what they wanted.
    In fact, they could not have chosen anything else but what their reasonings CAUSED them to decide to choose the choice that they preferred the MOST at that particular split second in time.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  13. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Free" will is an illusion.

    Causality has always been true.

    Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.

    It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

    It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
    A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
    But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

    Here is how James Coram puts it:
    "In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

    We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
    Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
    For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

    One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
    Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,172
    Likes Received:
    444
    Whatever dude. :rolleyes:
     
  15. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

    I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

    That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

    I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

    Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
    THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    evil.html

    I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

    I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

    All evil eventually leads to good, however, God is the only One Who can do this. He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), to provide the contrast for good. When all good is revealed, then evil is abolished from God’s universe—forever.
    BIBLICAL CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
    Quote from the above link
    "During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

    I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

    Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.

    “God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”


    I LOVE THAT QUOTE :)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  16. greymare

    greymare Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    donk!!!!!!donk!!!!!! (thats the sound of ones head hitting a wall).

    Between you and me, Rodge, ... do you think, just possibly that you think too much?
    ..... Just a little?...

    Love the Grey
     
  17. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,853
    Likes Received:
    249
    And you think this is not possible with God giving free-will to creation? :rolleyes:

    Where is your faith?

    What does this have to do with the lack of free-will? :confused:
     
  18. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
  19. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    582
    Likes Received:
    0
    It doesn't take faith to know that God gave everyone a "will."

    But that "will" always chose whatever our reasonings CAUSED us to prefer the MOST. It simply was not possible that we could have chosen anything else other than what we perceived to be "choice."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

    “God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

    It means that no "will" can defeat God's intention to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed.

    God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

    Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
    THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    evil.html
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  20. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,085
    Likes Received:
    0
    "contrary choice or “free" will not onlydoes exist buthas always existed."

    It simply is possible that we can chose anything.

    "Free" will is a reality.

    We prefer one choice over another, that is the reason/cause which induces us to make that choice.

    Sincerely,
    The Decider
     

Share This Page