There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by Azure24, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    I agree with that statement.

    But it is also true that you could not have chosen anything else but what you determined was your preference.
    You HAD to choose the choice that your reasoning CAUSED you to prefer the MOST at that split second in time.

    We all have a CAUSED will.
    No one has a "free" will because
    contrary choice or
    “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  2. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    "Free" will is not a reality, nor can it ever be a reality.

    "Free" will is an illusion.

    Causality has always been true.

    Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.

    It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

    It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
    A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
    But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

    Here is how James Coram puts it:
    "In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

    We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
    Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
    For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

    One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
    Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  3. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    Let me repeat my earlier question:

    What caused God?
     
  4. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    I earlier ignored your question because it is irrelevant.

    When I say "causality has always been true" it is only in reference to the choices that we make.

    Our choices are always caused.

    The "battered wife" that you referred to earlier, was CAUSED by her previous experience to hide from her angry husband.

    "What caused God?" is not even an issue in this debate.
     
  5. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    God, as all the religions understand him, makes heavy demands of his worshipers, punishes those who do not obey, rewards those who do, but he does not, nor can not, make it impossible for any to obey or disobey.
    It is possible for God to control people's minds, but to do so makes of people slaves, or robots, who then have no choice but to do as their master has programmed them to do.
    Then, the responsibility and the guilt/blame all rests on God and not on the created beings who then stand blameless for all they have done.
    This idea turns the concept of Love into a meaningless word.
    The same with sin and righteousness.

    I understand Rodger, that you have a huge thing for this idea, but you present it as a fait accompli (an accomplished fact) when IN FACT, it is just an idea.
    Perhaps you may decide to phrase your notions in such a language which reflects the fact that this is an idea.
    Perhaps you may ignore this advice and continue to preach the truth according to Rodger.
    Your choice.
     
  6. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    If you believe the Bible, in Romans 3:10-18 the verses say that is the condition of EVERYONE (without exception).

    It is God's decretive will (that which MUST occur) that because we are all sinners by nature and cannot help but sin (which means miss the mark) because we are "spiritually dead in trespasses and sin," we will all violate God's preceptive (not perceptive) will (that which we OUGHT to do) e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, as much as we actually do.

    I believe that God justly imposes accountability on everyone even though they cannot help but do what they do, because through His intimate sovereign control of how far He lets everyone get involved in sinning and suffering (until He intervenes for each one by His sovereign grace) God is going to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each individual.

    The idea that it would not be right for God to hold us accountable for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

    There is no "free" will.
    We always chose what we preferred the MOST, and we could not have chosen anything else at that particular split second in time.

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."



     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  7. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Divine love, sooner or later will not fail to ellicit a loving response from everyone.
    God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

    "Free" will is an illusion.

    Causality has always been true.

    Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.

    It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

    It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
    A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
    But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

    Here is how James Coram puts it:
    "In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

    We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
    Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
    For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

    One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
    Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  8. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    Just repeating things with an authoritative emphasis over and over and over and over and over and over and over does not make them become true.
    We all get that you believe it,
    but none of us are buying it.
    You have cited the volume of discussion as proof of its popularity yet everyone here has taken a shot at reasoning with you and then left in dismay.
    Myself, I am beginning to think I am having a conversation with an automaton as you just keep repeating the same old shtick over and over and over.
    Don't you get that.
    Or do you just plug your ears and go LALALALALALA.
     
  9. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    The stubborn fact just sits there in all of its irrefutableness.

    Our "will" always chose whatever our reasonings CAUSED us to prefer the MOST. It simply was not possible that we could have chosen anything else other than what we perceived to be "choice."

    "contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  10. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    But it is not a stubborn fact, nor is it irrefutable.
    It is a THEORY and an OPINION .
    In spite of your confidence in it.
    Yet you continue with tunnel vision stubbornness to present it as the last word.
    And hope that with ham-fisted repetition you will somehow convince people of this thing which you believe.
    Which nobody yet besides yourself here has believed.

    Really I don't care what you believe, you could believe in Cod Almighty, or the flying spaghetti monster, I just am seeking for some evidence of reasonableness in the presentation is all.
    I kind of expect a good example from the elders, ya know.
    Instead I see something completely different.
    So....just to let you know.
     
  11. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    "Irrefutable" is my perception, and it will remain so unless/until someone can convince me otherwise.

    Our "will" always chose whatever our reasonings CAUSED us to prefer the MOST. It simply was not possible that we could have chosen anything else other than what we perceived to be "choice."

    "contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  12. shawn

    shawn Well-Known Member

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    See, you just can't, or won't make any alterations whatsoever will you.?
    Just repeat your conviction over again.
    We all get it and see that you are doing this to bump your propaganda to the last word.
    But...to let you know, I am not convinced by the posts you made, nor the few links which I read through.
    Don't believe it.
    Think it is delusion.
    Although I support your right to freedom of speech no matter how delude I may think you are.
    But some speech is more respectable than others.
    Repetition is not in that respectable category.
     
  13. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    So, here it is again, in case a surfer might be interested.

    "Free" will is an illusion.

    Causality has always been true.


    Choices never get made for no reason, even if the only reason is to commit ourself to a random choice, like flipping a coin.

    It is the reason that we prefer one choice over another that causes us to make that choice.

    It is not possible to have made any other choice but the one we deemed MOST preferable to make at that split-second in time.
    A second before, or a second after, there may have been a reason why we would not make that choice due to considerations that were non-existent when we actually did make the choice.
    But at that split-second in time, when we actually did make the choice, it was the ONLY possible choice we could have made.

    Here is how James Coram puts it:
    "In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not.

    We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists.
    Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference.
    For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

    One cannot prefer what is not yet preferable.
    Yet when it becomes preferable it is preferred."

    "therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
  14. citizenzen

    citizenzen Custom User Title

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    I've been watching (one-sidedly, as Rodger is still on ignore) this discussion as you folks continue to try to pierce Rodger's thick fog of dogmatism.

    Rodger has in the past denied he ever called his beliefs "fact", but once again we can see that's exactly what he thinks. It's one thing to have strong faith. But it's another thing entirely to pretend that you know what is unknowable and declare it "irrefutable fact".

    That is not rational. That is not faith. It is insanity.

    I'm really sorry that it's ending this way for you Rodger. Most of us hope that with old age comes wisdom. It's a shame to see that it didn't come true for you. You seem like a harmless enough spirit. But you have to know that at this point it's become... embarrassing.

    Voltaire said, "Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous."

    Rodger, you really have become a completely, irrefutably, certain man.
     
  15. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Hey citzen, I thought you were probably lurking on site. :)

    I'm not aware that anything is ending for me.

    Maybe you know something that I don't know. ;)

    BTW, citizen, did I ever mention to you that you could not have chosen anything else but what you determined was your preference?
    You HAD to choose the choice that your reasoning CAUSED you to prefer the MOST at that split second in time.

    We all have a CAUSED will.
    No one has a "free" will because
    contrary choice or
    “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2010
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    You seem to be making a god out of causality, which is why I asked. :)
     
  17. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    God is God. Causality is what He does.

    If you believe the Bible, here is what it says about Him.

    “ALL is of God”
    2Corinthians 5:18

    “God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will”
    Ephesians 1:11

    Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

    Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
    THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    evil.html
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2010
  18. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Last edited: May 27, 2010
  19. seattlegal

    seattlegal Mercuræn Buddhist

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    This is the result of eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (See more below)
    You referred to a passage in Romans 3 earlier. Immediately preceding that passage, it says this:

    1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

    “ That You may be justified in Your words,
    And may overcome when You are judged.”[a]

    5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
    7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.​

    Paul is denying your argument in the pink highlighted above. :cool:

    and immediately after your cited passage:
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.​

    Again the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which comes back to the free choice of Adam to partake of it...
     
  20. rodgertutt

    rodgertutt Interfaith Forums

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    Paul is not denying MY argument because I am not arguing that we should do evil that good may come. I am arguing instead that God will sooner or later transform all evil into something better that it temporarily prevailed.
    THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
    evil.html
    People who misuse that truth to deliberate do evil will receive "kolasis aionion," which means age-during corrective chastisement as God fits them into His master plan in their own unique way.

    In spite of the truth that we should not deliberately do evil for the purpose of having good come, it is still true that eventually GOOD WILL COME out of the existence of all evil. God will see to it.
    THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS
    The Restitution of All Things: There Is One God; The Lord Our God Is One; All Things Created By God; All Things Created In Christ; All Things Out Of Him; The Unfragmented One; All Things Through Him; All Things Into Him; Restitution
    See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

    Adam had no "free" choice.
    It was God's intention that Adam would disobey.
    Adam was responding to the strongest influence on his mind.
    It was not even possible that Adam could have refused to disobey.
    THE SOURCE OF SIN
    biblical studies: The Problem Of Evil - Part One - Chapter Two - The Source Of Sin
     

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