What do you know?

[Gatekeeper]

I've been thinking a great deal over the last couple of days, and have come to realize that I know very little. I have thoughts, experiences, imaginations, and beliefs, but what do I [realy] know?

If you are interested, lets shed off the beliefs, and all of our imaginations on this thread, and focus on what we actually [do] know.

I'll start- I'm not sure I [know] anything, except that I, sensing individuality, [want] or have desires - Do you want, too? If so, what do you [want]?

All things experienced by me are subject to my interpretation through my senses. Experience is subjective, right? Are we the same? Do we, [can] we experience existence the same?

Love,

James

 

[Quahom1]

I've been thinking a great deal over the last couple of days, and have come to realize that I know very little. I have thoughts, experiences, imaginations, and beliefs, but what do I [realy] know?

If you are interested, lets shed off the beliefs, and all of our imaginations on this thread, and focus on what we actually [do] know.

I'll start- I'm not sure I [know] anything, except that I, sensing individuality, [want] or have desires - Do you want, too? If so, what do you [want]?

All things experienced by me are subject to my interpretation through my senses. Experience is subjective, right? Are we the same? Do we, [can] we experience existence the same?

Love,

James

Interesting. I'll bight. I have a need to serve (but in the same breath I have a need to be acknowledged for serving). I can go a long time serving, but at some point someone has to say "atta boy", or I get grumpy. I don't worry if I'll die, or get hurt, because I'm looking for that light in the saved's eyes that says "thank you". I think I was made that way, for a specific reason.

As a family man, I do the same thing. I provide, it is what I am good at. But I need the occasional heart felt "thank you" in order for me to function properly. Or else I become resentful.

Is this what you are looking for?

 

[path_of_one]

I've been thinking a great deal over the last couple of days, and have come to realize that I know very little. I have thoughts, experiences, imaginations, and beliefs, but what do I [realy] know?

I know... not much. I would say I know God exists and that some people in this life love me, as a result of my experiences. But beyond that, I can't say I know any more about either one. And of course, if asked to "prove" God exists, I can't. "To those for whom proof is needed, no proof is enough. For the others, no proof is needed."

I'll start- I'm not sure I [know] anything, except that I, sensing individuality, [want] or have desires - Do you want, too? If so, what do you [want]?

There are times that I even doubt my individuality. Certainly, I sometimes want stuff, ranging from the mundane (a good night's sleep, a particular long coat I saw at a store) to the spiritual (unity with God, peace on earth). But how do I really know that this is somehow unique? What defines me? These thoughts, desires?

All things experienced by me are subject to my interpretation through my senses. Experience is subjective, right?

Yes.

Are we the same? Do we, [can] we experience existence the same?

I have no idea. Yes and no, I would guess. On the surface, we are not the same and we experience existence differently as a result of different bodies, brains, cultures, upbringings. But maybe that surface difference is illusory? Once again, who knows?

 

[Gatekeeper]

I think I was made that way, for a specific reason.

Me too!

As a family man, I do the same thing. I provide, it is what I am good at. But I need the occasional heart felt "thank you" in order for me to function properly. Or else I become resentful.

Is this what you are looking for?

Yes, I was looking for honesty, and heart, Q. You bit, and met the mark.

I think we all need to serve somthing, and we all do in our own way. All things work for the good of those who love God. Even the our resentments serve God's purpose, Q. Not that I think we have a real choice when we resent, but that we might become mindful when we do.

I feel the need to love, and to be loved myself. God fills this need through others, and Himself. He provides for me through His creation, and who He is. Just as He provides for your need to serve, and to be acknowledged for your service.

What do I know, then? I know that I love Him who takes care of my needs, and He who binds us [all] together for His glory.

Love,

James

 

[Gatekeeper]

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I know... not much. I would say I know God exists and that some people in this life love me, as a result of my experiences. But beyond that, I can't say I know any more about either one. And of course, if asked to "prove" God exists, I can't. "To those for whom proof is needed, no proof is enough. For the others, no proof is needed."

Then proof is in the pudding, or so they say.

There are times that I even doubt my individuality. Certainly, I sometimes want stuff, ranging from the mundane (a good night's sleep, a particular long coat I saw at a store) to the spiritual (unity with God, peace on earth). But how do I really know that this is somehow unique? What defines me? These thoughts, desires?

I don't know, either. I do feel a sense of individuality, but like you, how do we know that we are unique?

I have no idea. Yes and no, I would guess. On the surface, we are not the same and we experience existence differently as a result of different bodies, brains, cultures, upbringings. But maybe that surface difference is illusory? Once again, who knows?

I love you path of one; your honesty makes my heart glad!


James

 

[Gatekeeper]

Sometimes my wants are not what I need, so there is a difference between [want] and need.

I want to know more than I know, [sometimes] but I apparently don't need that kind of knowledge. The Knowledge of God is 'knowing' that He is in control, and trusting Him as Father.

That is just to give you something to think about w/o drifting too far from purpose of thread.

Love,

James

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi James,

Welcome to the know-nothing clan!

My experience is that it's very difficult to know what I want. I often have the desire to desire, but not the desire itself. I love the idea of love, but I'm not all that loving. I want to be a good guitar player, but I don't want to practice.

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

Sometimes my wants are not what I need, so there is a difference between [want] and need.

How true, James.

So often, I want something and later find it's much better that I did not receive it. So apparently I am not even aware of the deeper part of myself. God knows that part, and responds to it, but I haven't met myself yet, in a way. I have found that over time, I am becoming better at separating my wants from what I can intuitively sense I need when I am honest with self-contemplation. This makes it all sound like I have a split personality.

"Hi, Kim. This is Deeper Kim."

"What?"

"I know you want that job that would pay twice as much as you're getting now, but trust me, there's a reason God isn't going to allow that to happen."

"Why?"

"It isn't what I need."

"But it's what I want!"

"Well, sorry about that. God knows me better than you know me. So you might not want to waste your time applying for it. Trust me (and God)- it ain't a happenin' thing."

"Grumbly, grumble."

I want to know more than I know, [sometimes] but I apparently don't need that kind of knowledge.

This is what I have struggled with the most. I am an intellectual. I love to think and learn new stuff and hash it all out until I master the details and also gain the big picture.

Unfortunately, I have gradually learned that God doesn't seem to plan on giving me very many details, or even an understanding of the big picture. I get to experience glimpses of God, and a great deal of yearning and longing. And I am to remain in that place, trusting God.

I've had visions and moments of bliss in which I experienced God, and I used to try to analyze them, work out the details from the experience. It was a natural result of the way my brain works. I am a scientist. I look for patterns, piecing everything together to understand. But at some point, it dawned on me, not intellectually but rather spiritually, that to understand was not the point. I wasn't to analyze, but just experience and be grateful. "Be still and know that I am God," I felt Him say in the core of my being. This is a struggle, since it is not how my brain works. But I recognize it is my journey- to accept and rejoice in the unknowing.

Of course, I still have my ideas because I am a work in progress, but I must continually acknowledge they are only guesses and opinions. In time, I feel like I will move toward ultimately having none of these ideas at all. Just the longing/yearning and the awareness of God's love. I keep getting more comfortable with saying, "who knows?" and then just watching all the ideas flow by (my own, others') with mild interest. Maybe one day the interest in the ideas will evaporate too. Who knows?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi James,

Welcome to the know-nothing clan!

Well, thank you, chinacat!

My experience is that it's very difficult to know what I want. I often have the desire to desire, but not the desire itself. I love the idea of love, but I'm not all that loving. I want to be a good guitar player, but I don't want to practice.

Chris

I'm the same way, China. Only, time usually gets the better of me, and my desires manifest themseves in mind. It is difficult for me sometimes; I mean, my desires come and go, and it seems as if [sometimes] it is not by choice that I have them. [does that make sense?]

btw, I "think" that perhaps, you just don't need to show emotional kind of love. The very fact that you are speaking with me, shows that you care enough to share yourself.

Love,

James

 

[Gatekeeper]

How true, James.

So often, I want something and later find it's much better that I did not receive it. So apparently I am not even aware of the deeper part of myself. God knows that part, and responds to it, but I haven't met myself yet, in a way. I have found that over time, I am becoming better at separating my wants from what I can intuitively sense I need when I am honest with self-contemplation. This makes it all sound like I have a split personality.

"Hi, Kim. This is Deeper Kim."

"What?"

"I know you want that job that would pay twice as much as you're getting now, but trust me, there's a reason God isn't going to allow that to happen."

"Why?"

"It isn't what I need."

"But it's what I want!"

"Well, sorry about that. God knows me better than you know me. So you might not want to waste your time applying for it. Trust me (and God)- it ain't a happenin' thing."

"Grumbly, grumble."

That's funny, path of one.

I've been contemplating free will lately, and I'm at a crossroads. I don't know which way I will go, and it is perplexing me a bit. do I, or do I not have a choice in the matter? Will the course taken be because I willed myself to take it, or because God knows my need more than I do?

Grumbly, grumble

This is what I have struggled with the most. I am an intellectual. I love to think and learn new stuff and hash it all out until I master the details and also gain the big picture.

Unfortunately, I have gradually learned that God doesn't seem to plan on giving me very many details, or even an understanding of the big picture. I get to experience glimpses of God, and a great deal of yearning and longing. And I am to remain in that place, trusting God.

I've had visions and moments of bliss in which I experienced God, and I used to try to analyze them, work out the details from the experience. It was a natural result of the way my brain works. I am a scientist. I look for patterns, piecing everything together to understand. But at some point, it dawned on me, not intellectually but rather spiritually, that to understand was not the point. I wasn't to analyze, but just experience and be grateful. "Be still and know that I am God," I felt Him say in the core of my being. This is a struggle, since it is not how my brain works. But I recognize it is my journey- to accept and rejoice in the unknowing.

Yes, I know only that I [want] sometimes, and that I Love my heavenly provider. I do love others, but it is a different kind of love, ya know? I'm not attached to my enemies, or my neighbor, like I feel attached to God. Sometimes I feel detached from God, but that is an illusion, I "think"?

Of course, I still have my ideas because I am a work in progress, but I must continually acknowledge they are only guesses and opinions. In time, I feel like I will move toward ultimately having none of these ideas at all. Just the longing/yearning and the awareness of God's love. I keep getting more comfortable with saying, "who knows?" and then just watching all the ideas flow by (my own, others') with mild interest. Maybe one day the interest in the ideas will evaporate too. Who knows?

Maybe, I wouldn't know? I think our intellect serves a good purpose, tho. I just need to realize that I am more than my intellect, and that my views aren't always going to be in sync with truth.

Love,

James

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, thank you, chinacat!



I'm the same way, China. Only, time usually gets the better of me, and my desires manifest themseves in mind. It is difficult for me sometimes; I mean, my desires come and go, and it seems as if [sometimes] it is not by choice that I have them. [does that make sense?]

btw, I "think" that perhaps, you just don't need to show emotional kind of love. The very fact that you are speaking with me, shows that you care enough to share yourself.

Love,

James

I didn't know what love was until I had kids. Whatever feelings I have for my wife, my friends, my family, it doesn't compare to how I feel about my kids. I would sacrifice myself for them without a thought. I wouldn't do that for anyone else, not even my wife, who, I presume to love, but don't always like!

Chris

 

[Gatekeeper]

I didn't know what love was until I had kids. Whatever feelings I have for my wife, my friends, my family, it doesn't compare to how I feel about my kids.

Chris

Exactly, different levels of Love for different people. We can't all get your best, now can we? You are no different than anyone else, or maybe you are - I don't know!

Love,

James

 

[path_of_one]

do I, or do I not have a choice in the matter? Will the course taken be because I willed myself to take it, or because God knows my need more than I do

Maybe we have a choice whether or not to choose God's way or try to forge our own, come what may? It seems I can force some parts of the universe to obtain my wants, but then when I do so it always results in heartache in the end. The path of least resistence is God's path, since He seems to clear the way. That doesn't always mean it appears to be the best way to the outside world, but it ends up being the best way for me.

Eh, I don't really try to figure out free will vs. predestination any more. No matter what I would decide, it's almost a given that it would not be accurate to how it all really works. And in either case, it would be irrelevant.

Yes, I know only that I [want] sometimes, and that I Love my heavenly provider. I do love others, but it is a different kind of love, ya know? I'm not attached to my enemies, or my neighbor, like I feel attached to God. Sometimes I feel detached from God, but that is an illusion, I "think"?

I am beginning to experience an odd dual existence where what I feel and what I more deeply feel are two different things. I used to feel emotionally attached to God, to certain people. I would strive to feel that way toward everyone and all beings, believing that is what Christ taught us. I would worry when I felt emotionally distant from God.

I am beginning now to "feel" on two planes- emotionally and a different one. Call it spiritual feeling or whatever. The best analogy is when you're really angry emotionally with someone you love very deeply. You don't feel emotionally loving at the time, but yet you do feel that you love them. This is beginning to occur in all cases for me. I may feel a bit alone, away from God, but on that other level I feel close to Him. I may emotionally be more attached to my family than to others, but on that other level I love everyone deeply.

I can't tell if it was always so and I merely learned to recognize it, or if it is something that grew in me. I do know that it seems that the more I recognize these two planes and keen my awareness to the other type of feeling, the more they merge and the more emotionally loving I feel towards everyone. At times, I will see some random person on the street, or even some other being (tree, animal, whatnot) and feel so much that I love them that I want to cry. It's like their inherent beauty- their life- just overwhelms me. And then instantly, I feel instinctively even closer to God, like I am drawing near Him but without effort.

I think our intellect serves a good purpose, tho. I just need to realize that I am more than my intellect, and that my views aren't always going to be in sync with truth.

Yes, I agree. I think our intellect is very useful in many ways, just not always the right way to approach all issues and a poor way to define the self.

 

[Quahom1]

How true, James.

So often, I want something and later find it's much better that I did not receive it. So apparently I am not even aware of the deeper part of myself. God knows that part, and responds to it, but I haven't met myself yet, in a way. I have found that over time, I am becoming better at separating my wants from what I can intuitively sense I need when I am honest with self-contemplation. This makes it all sound like I have a split personality.

"Hi, Kim. This is Deeper Kim."

"What?"

"I know you want that job that would pay twice as much as you're getting now, but trust me, there's a reason God isn't going to allow that to happen."

"Why?"

"It isn't what I need."

"But it's what I want!"

"Well, sorry about that. God knows me better than you know me. So you might not want to waste your time applying for it. Trust me (and God)- it ain't a happenin' thing."

"Grumbly, grumble."



This is what I have struggled with the most. I am an intellectual. I love to think and learn new stuff and hash it all out until I master the details and also gain the big picture.

Unfortunately, I have gradually learned that God doesn't seem to plan on giving me very many details, or even an understanding of the big picture. I get to experience glimpses of God, and a great deal of yearning and longing. And I am to remain in that place, trusting God.

I've had visions and moments of bliss in which I experienced God, and I used to try to analyze them, work out the details from the experience. It was a natural result of the way my brain works. I am a scientist. I look for patterns, piecing everything together to understand. But at some point, it dawned on me, not intellectually but rather spiritually, that to understand was not the point. I wasn't to analyze, but just experience and be grateful. "Be still and know that I am God," I felt Him say in the core of my being. This is a struggle, since it is not how my brain works. But I recognize it is my journey- to accept and rejoice in the unknowing.

Of course, I still have my ideas because I am a work in progress, but I must continually acknowledge they are only guesses and opinions. In time, I feel like I will move toward ultimately having none of these ideas at all. Just the longing/yearning and the awareness of God's love. I keep getting more comfortable with saying, "who knows?" and then just watching all the ideas flow by (my own, others') with mild interest. Maybe one day the interest in the ideas will evaporate too. Who knows?

I have a different dillema. At the crossroads to changing careers (because I'm at 30 years and can't continue), I don't know what I want to do. I can do many things, but I'm used to doing "many things" in the career I've had, now I have to focus on one...and deeper self isn't helping matters much...

grumble grumble...

 

[Gatekeeper]

Maybe we have a choice whether or not to choose God's way or try to forge our own, come what may? It seems I can force some parts of the universe to obtain my wants, but then when I do so it always results in heartache in the end. The path of least resistence is God's path, since He seems to clear the way. That doesn't always mean it appears to be the best way to the outside world, but it ends up being the best way for me.

Eh, I don't really try to figure out free will vs. predestination any more. No matter what I would decide, it's almost a given that it would not be accurate to how it all really works. And in either case, it would be irrelevant.

The path of least resistance [for me] might be to just sit back and enjoy the ride, lol. Then I think, "what if God wants more from me?" I don't know that I can do anything more than what God allows me to do, or what He has put in me to do. Whether I view myself as doing, or whether I view God as doing - the result is the same, yes?

In that regard, I wonder if there is a difference? Did I choose to believe in God, or did God choose [me] to believe in Him? I simply don't know, and perhaps that is the way it should be.

I am beginning to experience an odd dual existence where what I feel and what I more deeply feel are two different things. I used to feel emotionally attached to God, to certain people. I would strive to feel that way toward everyone and all beings, believing that is what Christ taught us. I would worry when I felt emotionally distant from God.

I am beginning now to "feel" on two planes- emotionally and a different one. Call it spiritual feeling or whatever. The best analogy is when you're really angry emotionally with someone you love very deeply. You don't feel emotionally loving at the time, but yet you do feel that you love them. This is beginning to occur in all cases for me. I may feel a bit alone, away from God, but on that other level I feel close to Him. I may emotionally be more attached to my family than to others, but on that other level I love everyone deeply.

I can't tell if it was always so and I merely learned to recognize it, or if it is something that grew in me. I do know that it seems that the more I recognize these two planes and keen my awareness to the other type of feeling, the more they merge and the more emotionally loving I feel towards everyone. At times, I will see some random person on the street, or even some other being (tree, animal, whatnot) and feel so much that I love them that I want to cry. It's like their inherent beauty- their life- just overwhelms me. And then instantly, I feel instinctively even closer to God, like I am drawing near Him but without effort.

I "think" the different levels of love are one and the same spirit, and that they only differ in degree of vibrition. The level I have for my nieghbor is different than my son, or mother, and my dad.

The more pure the love, the higher vibration of energy, and as the purity lessens, the lower the vibration. You can feel the fuzzy feeling when it's pure, and it is more of a dull sense when it is less, yes - no - maybe? We just don't know do we?

Yes, I agree. I think our intellect is very useful in many ways, just not always the right way to approach all issues and a poor way to define the self.

Amen!

Thank you, path of one.

James

 

[path_of_one]

I have a different dillema. At the crossroads to changing careers (because I'm at 30 years and can't continue), I don't know what I want to do. I can do many things, but I'm used to doing "many things" in the career I've had, now I have to focus on one...and deeper self isn't helping matters much...

grumble grumble...

You have my sympathy. I've been feeling pressured to do all kinds of research and publish for years, and set my heart on being a professor and all this.

I find myself at a crossroads myself where I don't exactly like what I'm doing, but I don't think the best use of my life is to do research, and I'm not sure where I am heading. I still want a professorship, but the deeper me feels like God has something else in mind.

It seems every time I rebel against just being and spending much of my time simply loving people and God, and I go back to trying to do data analysis and publication, I quickly become so overwhelmed with stress that I get sick and wind up in bed. My doctor says I need to just enjoy life and quit trying to accomplish so much. I'm beginning to think God is saying that too. Well, more that God is telling me to enjoy life and listen for what He wants me to accomplish instead of running after whatever I want on my own.

To be honest, it's a real struggle, because I feel most deeply that I am supposed to have kids and raise them, do some art, write some spiritual stuff, and do some practical volunteer/non-profit work (like a homeless shelter or something). But here I have bills due, and I can't see how I can do all that and survive financially. None of that pays much, and we're just not in a spot to make it on one income right now. I keep hearing "Patience, patience" from God and deeper self, but oh it is difficult. I am not the patient sort, especially with myself.

I trust I'm being led somewhere, but it is so hard to have a blindfold on while I stumble along, if you know what I mean.

 

[greymare]

I have a different dillema. At the crossroads to changing careers (because I'm at 30 years and can't continue), I don't know what I want to do. I can do many things, but I'm used to doing "many things" in the career I've had, now I have to focus on one...and deeper self isn't helping matters much...

grumble grumble...

Hey Q, couldnt you instruct others.? Be a teacher, maybe thats a rewarding career for you. and I mean teach others the skills that you have a lifetime of. How about doing what you do but in another country. Could you lead a team doing what you do in (like a third world country)???? That would help the citizens, you would get a lot of gratitude and others could learn heaps from you. (just a thought)

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

How about Postmaster General? Or Barkeep? The new face of Quaker Oats? Seriously though, that's an interesting dilemma to have Josh. I suppose you get a tidy pension, but it's probably not enough to live comfortably on. Of course there's always law enforcement. That's always an easy in from the military.

It's interesting to me to imagine retiring at 45. I went into the Air Force when I was 25, and I was considering a career. But Clinton had just been elected and the talk of "doing more with less" didn't sound good. I wanted to cross train into working on helicopters instead of fighters and the AF wouldn't give me a guaranteed job reservation, so I split after my initial four year hitch.

Anyway, I'd bet you've got any number of connections and the real question is just which offer to accept.

Chris

 

[Gatekeeper]

I have a different dillema. At the crossroads to changing careers (because I'm at 30 years and can't continue), I don't know what I want to do. I can do many things, but I'm used to doing "many things" in the career I've had, now I have to focus on one...and deeper self isn't helping matters much...

grumble grumble...

Hey, Q

I'm in a position where I have to choose a career, also. My counselor has given me a list, from which I will pick 15 possible careers. I have been disabled for a great while now, so this is a VERY big change for me. I am nervous, exicted, and even fearful of the idea of going back to work after so many years.

I have no advice; I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone, man. I find it helps when others can relate to my own challenges. [If only a little]

I am personally pursuing my passion in photography. That is, if my counselor will support this decision.

Anyway, I 'know' you will find what you need!

Love,

James

 

[Dondi]

I am beginning to experience an odd dual existence where what I feel and what I more deeply feel are two different things. I used to feel emotionally attached to God, to certain people. I would strive to feel that way toward everyone and all beings, believing that is what Christ taught us. I would worry when I felt emotionally distant from God.

I am beginning now to "feel" on two planes- emotionally and a different one. Call it spiritual feeling or whatever. The best analogy is when you're really angry emotionally with someone you love very deeply. You don't feel emotionally loving at the time, but yet you do feel that you love them. This is beginning to occur in all cases for me. I may feel a bit alone, away from God, but on that other level I feel close to Him. I may emotionally be more attached to my family than to others, but on that other level I love everyone deeply.

I can't tell if it was always so and I merely learned to recognize it, or if it is something that grew in me. I do know that it seems that the more I recognize these two planes and keen my awareness to the other type of feeling, the more they merge and the more emotionally loving I feel towards everyone. At times, I will see some random person on the street, or even some other being (tree, animal, whatnot) and feel so much that I love them that I want to cry. It's like their inherent beauty- their life- just overwhelms me. And then instantly, I feel instinctively even closer to God, like I am drawing near Him but without effort.

We learn how to love mostly through our most intimate relationships...at least initially. That is our "training ground". Has it ever occurred to you God's purpose for learning that deep love is so that you can branch out toward others not in your immediate fold? Your familiar love is just a mustard seed, that love will grow. That seed, of course, is the love that God plants in your heart when you begin a relationship with Him.

We have to learn to love, it doesn't all come naturally. We have to will to love. But it is far easier to do when our spirit is merged with the Spirit of God, who embodies the greatest Love. God wants to love through us, channeling His Love toward others as we allow ourselves to be His tool for His purpose. When we make ourselves available and learn to love with a pure heart, we will see things happen that can often just blow our mind. It's like being in sync with our surrounding, with other people.

Path of One, the love for others that you experience in seeing the person on the street is a direct result of your relationship with God, and your relationship with the ones you love. You feel the pull toward them and maybe less for you family because He's transferring the love you know for your loved ones to those who need it more.

I find myself at a crossroads myself where I don't exactly like what I'm doing, but I don't think the best use of my life is to do research, and I'm not sure where I am heading. I still want a professorship, but the deeper me feels like God has something else in mind.

It seems every time I rebel against just being and spending much of my time simply loving people and God, and I go back to trying to do data analysis and publication, I quickly become so overwhelmed with stress that I get sick and wind up in bed. My doctor says I need to just enjoy life and quit trying to accomplish so much. I'm beginning to think God is saying that too. Well, more that God is telling me to enjoy life and listen for what He wants me to accomplish instead of running after whatever I want on my own.

You are ripe for a calling.