Discussion in 'Christianity' started by dailogue is the best, Jan 25, 2008.
Don't disrespect me Dialogue. I have never done that to you.
President Bush NEVER said ANYTHING about God ordering him to go to war. And frankly, I think you should check "snopes.com" to find out the truth of things, before you post points that you might regret, later.
Again, Quahom1, again!!! you always made a false assumption against me. Can you show me where I showed you disrespect? I dont dare, Quahom1. Neither your gentle behaviour nor my ethics allow me to do so.
By the way, it is the first time, and believe me, I heard about "snopes.com". These were the news I heard the time war on Iraq began. I will check it out, and then I will inform you about my findings.
If you see my using the phrase "if you are" as a sign of disrespect, then I am no end sorry, and I really apologize.
I used the phrase "if you are" for the sake of giving exapmles, and I mnt addressing you at all.
By the first example, I meant the people of Pharoah and the prophecies of Moses.
By the second example, I meant the people of Israel and the prophecies of Jesus.
By the third example, I meant the people of Arabian peninsula and the prophecies of Muhammed.
I want to say that different prophecies address different people.
Again, I am very sorry, Quahom1, if you felt that you have been disrespected by me. I dont dare. (not out of fear, but out of real respect)
It's ok. Maybe a nerve got touched, and I'm sorry you got the brunt of it.
As usual, Quahom1.....Oh! My God!!!....May God give me patience with you. You accuse me of something, I have to clarify I dont mean anything, then you say you are sorry for misunderstanding....
Another time, I will blink my eyes over your accusations. haha
Now, can you reply to my post, Quahom1.
How do Christians deal with what appears to be great cognitive dissonance in Muslim believers? It's like Westerners, non-Muslims should turn off their tvs and stop reading their newspapers and listen only to the soothing words of Muslim believers about the goodness of their faith. Meanwhile, their Muslim brethren are busy every day of the week blowing fellow Muslims up or non-Muslims in the way of Muslim rule. What Westerner in their right mind would want to be a part of such a violent religious movement?
Any time you couple religion with weapons, God has fled from that religion. God has no need of guns, only men do.
That would be a presumption of my inability to reasonably deduce what is actually happening, and what is being made to appear as something that is not.
Further more, a prophecy is not something that "wows" people with the materialistic, but rather a vision of that which is yet to come. Once the vision is realized the prophecy then is "fulfilled".
I am not in any way Dialogue, arguing the merits of Mohhamad's integrity, morals or ethics. What I question is whether or not he presented prophecies and if so, did any come true.
This is far different than "miracles", which are an every day occurance experienced by every day people.
You bring up the division of the moon as a prophecy. Yet within the ranks of Islam, that "prophecy" is in question as to its meaning, and timing. One camp states that Mohhamad actually split the moon (past tense), yet others claim the splitting of the moon occured on 21 July 1969 at exactly 17:54:1 U, when the American astronauts left the moon, bound for earth with 45 lbs of moon rock in their capsule. In short, Americans (not Mohhamad), literally split a piece of the moon away. The rest of the Q'uranic scripture precludes the "prophecy" from being that of the Americans splitting the moon due to the simple observation of the writer, namely that the people who observed this were not impressed. This we know is not at all true, since the whole world was enchanted by the moon walk (except the Russians who were envious...lol ).
Therefore, the only explanation left is that Mohammad literally split the moon, and the people were not impressed. However, that is not a prophecy, but historical, as Mohommad's writer is speaking in the past tense.
We can look at each "prophecy" if you'd like. I'm game.
However, remember, I am not questioning Mohommad's ethics, integrity or honor.
You forget the Lord's general...Joshua was his name, and Jericho was his claim to fame.
And what he taught us was this: Anything can be used as a weapon, including sound and the frequency of foot falls in cadence.
This is a presumption on the part that all Muslims are terroists?
There are many Christians who do bad things in the name of God, as well. But that doesn't make all Christians bad.
I don't forget that the Book of Joshua is thankfully just a tribal wishful-thinking story and not true according to Israeli archeologists. It's best to not let ancient tribal politics dictate what one believes about God.
There are millions of Muslims who do good. I have quite a few Muslim friends but I am also Christian and cannot stand by seeing murder committed in the name of God. If this was the 11th or 12th century, or the 15th, or 16th, or 17th, I would be protesting against the Catholic Church with its abuse of power in the name of God. I protest American abuse of power in the name of God. And I protest Israeli abuse of power in the name of God--an abuse that is rationalized by Israelis and Evangelicals by pointing to the genocidal myths of Joshua.
I see. Then perhaps you should be the one to tell National Geographics that their discovery of Jericho (and subsequent fallen walls due to seismic disturbance, in an otherwise stable strata), was false.
It's best not to let anyone tell others what is real or what is not, based on personal opinion.
Oh, and I also think you doubt that Moses parted the Red Sea...but we know that it is possible.
First off, I'm not evangelical, not by a long shot. Second, I fail to see where you shooting Christians in the foot is helping matters, considering you claim to be one.
Axe to grind?
finally, there is the consideration of predjudice. We tend to judge people and telegraph that to the world, just in the way we speak. And we don't even realize it. Just ask your "muslim friends", or should that be "friends who happen to be muslim"?
If you just need prophecies, here are they:
Prophecies from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.
Namaste Q, there is plenty of discussion in the Jewish communities that it wasn't the red sea but a swamp that was crossed and it didn't part like the apologetic scientists nor the Charlton Heston movie implied...the foot folks were able to cross and the chariots got stuck in the mud and hyperbole and victory stories took over...
and from wiki
I rely on Israeli archeologists, Finkelstein and Silberman for their professional opinions, not National Geographic. If you need to believe in Old Testament Hollywood miracle stories to secure your belief then don't let me stop you. It just isn't my path. I need my faith placed on firmer ground.
Yes, the fifth finger feed of the "Reed Sea", not the actual sea body itself. I was aware. I also did a test as a kid in school with a scaled mock up of the Red sea with the finger feeds, and was able to "part" the water from the finger feeds with a "down draft of wind", from a smaller blower. Got the idea from watching the "marsh lands" being cut off from the ocean currents on the shores of Rhode Island, during "down drafts" coming off the sea and hitting warmer air on shore.
Still makes the "miracle" even more so, since it can be explained scientifically (the timing is what gets me as being the miracle).
As I explained above, I used theory, testing and observation to validate the probability that it did occur, just not the timing of the whole situation.
But test the theory for yourself. Take a cake pan and fill it with 2 inches of water, then take a hair blower and point it towards the center of the cake pan...neat reaction, watching the water "part", leaving a dry cake pan bottom, while the water "piles up" on itself on either side...
Separate names with a comma.