Why you believe that non-vegetarian

Discussion in 'Hinduism' started by islamis4u, Jan 27, 2008.

  1. dauer

    dauer Active Member

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    Slowwwww down. That's way too much kool aide for one gulp. I spent about three years as a vegan and did a good bit of reading into those types of assertions. Do most Westerners eat too much meat? Without a doubt. We eat too much meat. That doesn't mean we're not omnivores, that we shouldn't eat meat or that meat has not been beneficial to human beings. Omnivores do not have identical characteristics to carnivores and primates don't eat only vegetation. This article is a good place to start:

    The Relevance of Comparative Anatomy and Physiology "Proofs"


    You might also find this article informative: Paleolithic Diet vs. Vegetarianism
     
  2. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    Can Flesh be considered the natural food of man, when both his eyes and his nose are so much against it, unless deceived by flavors of sices, salt and sugar. On the other hand, how delightful do we find the fragrance of fruits, the very sight which often makes the mouth water"
    ~Paramahansa Yogananda

    The article you posted is an obvious rebuttle to the 80/10/10 diet, which is not what I am advocating. It disregards eating meat for survival. It addreses the evolutionary needs of our ancestors and the lack of other sources of vital minerals and enzymes. Fortunately we do not live in the Sahara, we are not experiencing an ice age. It is important to recognize the age and conditions in which we live.

    20,000 cases of e-coli from meat happen each year. Salmonella can be found in 30-70% of chickens. In 80-90% of turkeys there is found a Camphlobacter infection, which causes intenstinal infections similar to salmonella. Flesh food has aprox fifteen times more pesticides and herbicides than vegetable food, due to the fact that they are at the top of the food chain. Fish contain large ammounts of Mercury and PCB, water contaminants from pesticide runnoff. PCB's are found in 100% of human sperm samples and are considered one of the main reasons that the average sperm count in USA is 50-70% what it was 30 years ago. How about the corelation between young children developing mature breasts, utteruses and vaginal bleeding and the hormone rich animal food they are eating (which are fed estrogen to increase their weight)?
    Uric Acid- our bodies are only able to excrete eight grains per day, whereas one lbs of meat leaves a residue of eighteen grains of uric acid. Uric acid is highly toxic in excess.
    One has to ask why cancer and degenerative disease rates are so high! Ontop of all the contaminates in our food, meat protein is also low in oxygen. Cancer thrives in low oxygen and high blood sugar.

    The studies and lists which show meat eating to be disastrous to humans are long and extensive. More extensive than the university student who had a bone to pick with frugivores. Statistically, vegetarian/vegans live longer healthier lives.

    Most spiritual traditions advocate a vegetarian diet. It is ridiculous to think that humans should and need meat products to live a healthy life. In fact it is the total opposite, and citing research which does not address these very relevant issues will not change the facts.
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    I hate this sort of vegetarian sanctimonious moralising - it is simply an attempt to force one world view on another.

    AndreG, you make statements about the potential chemical pollution of meat products, but you completely fail to even begin to address the massive pollution of fruits and vegetables through use of pesticides, fertilisers, and similar chemical controls used extensively in agriculture.

    Even the EU notes that there are tens of thousands of chemicals used for normal arable food production that have never undergone proper regulation. That's why many people are carrying latent levels of dioxons and pcb's in their bodies.

    You fail to address the fact that pollution from fertilisers and pesticides are predominantly the results of arable, rather than pastoral farming.

    We haven't even begun to address how these chemicals are impacting the natural world, other than note than some of the derivative compounds are oestrogen mimics that are having very profound physiological effects on a wide range of species.

    I've been veggie for 19 years now - and reading your comments, all I can see is some new convert desperate to justify their choice. The "facts" you quote are unsustainable, presented from biased sources.

    As for the spiritual proscription - that's because the consideration that other animals are sentient to some degree and at least feel pain and are sensitive to suffering - and to inflict pain is a horrifying prospect when spiritually aware. And yet...plants can communicate and show a degree of awareness, too. That's why the spiritual path can easily turn someone from eating any form of living creature, whether animal or plant, and eat only fruit.

    If you're going to claim a brain, use it instead of regurgitating propagandist shte from other people. Thinking is actually a really good exercise, and independent of dietary preferences.
     
  4. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    Brian I have been vegan much longer than you have. I am fully aware of both sides of the debate - through direct experience.

    You've chosen to ignore facts and revert to insults...

    There is no debate on the use of organic and sustainable farming methods, why would you even bring that up? I am assuming that anyone who is commenting on this discussion has the sense to eat organic, whole foods.

    The fact of the matter is that meat and animal products carry a MUCH higher load of toxins than veg. This is undeniable. Meat does not promote health, it promotes dis-ease, the research is available. Hippocrates, Tree of Life... so many institutes are succesfully treating these illnesses with a raw food vegan diet. Hypoglycemics and Type1 are being taken completely off of insulin, regulating their blood sugar, with a raw vegan diet. A animal based diet is old news, antiquated, done with, over, finito. The climbing rates of cancer, diabetes, degenerative disease and birth deffects are absolutely frightening.



    It's sad that you feel the need to take this personally, obviously some buttons are being pushed.

    Enjoy your lunch
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Well I'm sorry, but you're the one being patronising, and refusing to acknowledge a balanced argument - instead posting extremely selective bits of information which of course you have simply picked up from propagandist literature.

    You haven't countered any of my points, though, but instead tried to side line it by pointing out that organic farming is less polluting. That doesn't address the issue of existing arable farming practices, nor the fact that our bodies and much of the world is being polluted not because of pastoral farming, but because of arable farming.

    The bottom line is that you have done nothing but post misinformation, and as a veggie reading misinformation about vegetarianism, I am certainly going to challenge it.

    Does this include organic meat? I suspect you will not accept that point, because your argument is not about sustainability, nor about organic methods, but instead a direct attempt to posture morale superiority based on what you eat.
     
  6. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    Brian, quit psychoanalyzing and stick to the topic and facts. This is getting boring.

    Does this include organic meat?
    Of course, there is no question that organic farming, pastoral or arable, is less harmful than conventional practices. And there is no question that organic veggie farming is far more sustainable than pastoral farming. Veggie farming uses far less resources and can be a closed system. Animal farming uses massive amounts of water and feed and cannot be a closed system.
    What is more sustainable than sprouting your own greens/sprouts and growing your own veggies? This is possible even in the smallest of condos; raising a herd of cows for milk is not.

    The bottom line is that you have done nothing but post misinformation
    I apologize if I have posted misinformation. Please show me where.

    Please explain to me why you believe a vegan diet to be more detrimental to your health than an omnivorous diet. This IS the debate after all.
    Keep in mind I am not advocating eating bananas from Costa Rica or plates of Tofu.
     
  7. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    Yes most vegetarians are keenly aware and concerned of the pollutants, herbicide, fertilizers, human waste, irradiation, insecticides, hormones added to our fruits, veggies and grains.

    However what is most interesting is how carnivores point to this and say that this should be a concern of veggies when in reality it should be a concern of carnivores.

    Across the board studies have shown the carnivore to be carrying, containing more of all of the above than veggies do! Why, because much of this stuff is stored in the fat and the meat of the cow, sheep, pig etc that those carnivores consume...so they consume many multiples of these products for that reason alone. And then there is the consideration that crops used for animal feed don't have as stringent a rules on the use of all of the above than crops used for human consumption. And then there is also the amount of grain, grass required for 1 pound of animal protien vs 1 pound of veggie protien...oh my...

    Which brings up yet another topic on the bennies to the world of eating less meat...it takes less energy, land, chemicals, water, and manpower to create feed the same amount of people.
     
  8. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    If you're happy to have a discussion, instead of patronize your audience, that would be great.

    So far you have contributed nothing to the discussion excepting to post dubious propaganda pointers.

    Interesting that you've changed tact, though - originally your aim of of attack was against anything but a meat-free diet - now you seem to be aiming at industrial food production. Not very consistent.

    You opened up with a run of sanctimonious postings, and somehow presume that means people will warm to your comments. I'm sorry, it doesn't, and if you understand that, and can move forward from that, you should be fine to settle in this and any other community online.
     
  9. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    Attempt # 2

    Does this include organic meat?
    Of course, there is no question that organic farming, pastoral or arable, is less harmful than conventional practices. And there is no question that organic veggie farming is far more sustainable than pastoral farming. Veggie farming uses far less resources and can be a closed system. Animal farming uses massive amounts of water and feed and cannot be a closed system.
    What is more sustainable than sprouting your own greens/sprouts and growing your own veggies? This is possible even in the smallest of condos; raising a herd of cows for milk is not.

    The bottom line is that you have done nothing but post misinformation
    I apologize if I have posted misinformation. Please show me where.

    Please explain to me why you believe a vegan diet to be more detrimental to your health than an omnivorous diet. This IS the debate after all.
    Keep in mind I am not advocating eating bananas from Costa Rica or plates of Tofu.
     
  10. AndreG

    AndreG New Member

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    Yes, Dioxin/DDT and other toxins are fat soluble, which is why there is abundance of them in flesh and animal tissue, and not so much in plants.
     
  11. Pravin

    Pravin New Member

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    Greetings

    @Islamis4U

    Now regarding why do Hindus believe that vegetarian food should be eaten, or to make it sound better why do most Hindus prefer to eat vegetarian food by excluding meat?

    This issue mainly dwells under the idea of Ahimsa, which simply means non-violence. Killing of an animal for our own survival/hunger when we could still well survive by eating plants and grains is considered an act of violence. Why do we have to kill the poor animals when we can still survive by eating plants?
    What is the purpose of eating? We eat to provide ourselves the daily energy and nutrients needed by our body. Isn't that the purpose of eating?

    After myself having said all the above, as usual many might ask, then isnt eating plants means killing plants too. Isnt that an act of violence?

    Well, fair enough. But fortunately, plants do not feel pain, do not cry in pain, nor do they shout out in pain. I have been recently hearing and reading the claims of certain people that plants can feel pain too. That plants too cry out in pain. And that their cry if beyond the normal hearing of humans. All these claims are purely ridiculous! And it sounds even more ridiculous when these claims are being made by people with scietific educational background.

    Now, let me ask u, if u have learnt the plant biology, can u please name me an organ in plant which percieves pain stimulant (eg: cerebral cortex in human)? Or can u name me an organ in plant that can produce sound waves (eg: vocal cords in human)? Well, there is nothing. Plants do not feel pain, nor do they cry in pain. I wonder why are these wrong scietific facts being spread like a virus just for the purpose of againsting vegetarianism.
     
  12. Pravin

    Pravin New Member

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    so what's the conclusion through this discussion?
    from what i have read throughout, my conclusion a balanced vegan diet is definitely the best for human health.

    p/s : im not a vegan though (but wanting to change one day)
     
  13. ultimateProphet

    ultimateProphet New Member

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    Most sattvik food is fruit and milk.during the period of worship we take this.This not hurt tree as well as animal .And our saints advocated for this food.2nd type of food Rajashik like Anna,bannana etc.
    Taking meet is tamoshik as it shows the blood and violence.
     
  14. murugan

    murugan New Member

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    We are not killing a plant or a tree, we just using their fruits, leaves and vegetables for our food. Unlike in animals they are killed for the food.
     
  15. avinash-kalawar

    avinash-kalawar New Member

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    Hindus are non vegis only brahmins and vasyas are vegis they sacrificed practice of non veg from the birth of lord vishnus messenger buddha he thought aahimsa (non-voilence) from there onwards this two castes sacrificed flesh consumption
     
  16. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    Welcome, avinash-kalawar! We need some Hindus here at interfaith.org that we can learn from! :)
     
  17. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    here, here...

    absolutely agree and namaste avinash-kalawar
     
  18. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    When a regular person eats meat, how do they know they were not served Human Flesh?

    Faith!

    Guantanamo prisoners have faith that they are NOT served Human Flesh.

    Even atheists and travelers the world over are faithfull ---that no one is feeding them flesh [or soylent green too].

    Why all the faithfullness?

    It is not faith ---it is in-difference to the re-actions of the Karma!

    Karmic-reactions are mechanical. Karmic-reactions are not based on anyones faith.

    Having faith that an ex-convict, or illegal emmigrant, or mad-man is conscientious of clean and karma-free food prep is called GAMBLING.

    Not Faith ---in-different Gambling.

    Yahoo to the schools of Future Fish colonies.
     
  19. Etu Malku

    Etu Malku Mercur├Žn

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    Thank GOD I'm a Luciferian . . . . because I loves me some Pulled Pork smothered in spicy BBQ sauce!
     
  20. bhaktajan

    bhaktajan Active Member

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    <Note to self: I must write shorter posts>

    So Etu, when someone preps a pigs corpse with flavoring ---
    HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS NOT HUMAN FLESH THAT YOU WERE SERVED?

    How do they know they were not served Human Flesh?

    You have faith Etu!

    Correct?

    You have faith Etu, that you are not served Human Flesh!
    You have faith Etu, that you have NOT been eating Human Flesh!

    Why? Because you have faith in strangers!

    Correct?

    BTW: Would the "Strangers" have faith in your flavored corpse serving?

    CHALLENGE QUESTION: Is Raw/Un-cooked* red meat or pork is something you have eaten?

    *remember: they are called "Cured Meats".
     

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