Article: Polygamist sweep raises legal query

juantoo3

....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Messages
9,396
Reaction score
1,728
Points
108
Location
up to my arse in alligators
Polygamist sweep raises legal query | Gainesville.com | The Gainesville Sun | Gainesville, FL

The state of Texas made a damning accusation when it rounded up 462 children at a polygamous sect's ranch: The adults are forcing teenage girls into marriage and sex, creating a culture so poisonous that none should be allowed to keep their children.

But the broad sweep - from nursing infants to teenagers - is raising constitutional questions, even in a state where authorities have wide latitude for taking a family's children.

The move has the appearance of "a class-action child removal,'' said Jessica Dixon, director of the child advocacy center at Southern Methodist University's law school in Dallas.

This is one of those subjects it seems hard to decide which board to put this on.

Anyway one looks at this, it is a very divisive subject. But this is the first I have seen in the news media to raise the issues that crossed my mind right after this raid on the Mormon compound happened. Innocent until proven guilty? Not when it comes to family issues. If the state of Texas sets a new precedent, any family can have their children summarily taken away without due process. As near as I can tell, they still haven't figured out who placed the initial accusatory call, and a lot of innocent people are being harrassed by the state, regardless of the accusations floating in the media. Guilty by association and by mass hysteria, ruining how many lives?

Surprised? Shouldn't be, its been slowly becoming the norm for years, disguised as "protecting the children." It can happen to your family. All it takes is an *anonymous* phone call and baseless accusation.

Where is the justice in that?
 
That's how it starts--with the extreme examples used as scare tactics to back up increased governing power--and less freedom and less justice for the mainstream. (Power-hungry governments just don't like that "due process" thing. :rolleyes: )
 
I can't help but be reminded of the whole Waco-Branch Davidian thing...the gov comes in with guns a-blazin', and asking the questions later. Typical.
 
From what little I have read on this case I think it was right for the authorities to risk error in removing the kids. It was not the first such accusation and it seems there has been concern about this group for some time. But that said I am also concerned that due process is there at every stage and there should be constant judicial review of the case. We had a case here in Scotland some years back that proved to be groundless and motivated by the crazy thoughts of the social services official, (whom I heard but cannot confirm was fanatical Presbyterian), who kicked it all off. Several children were removed and kept apart from their families for a substantial amount of time. The kids are to this day still deeply affected by it. So when the state decides to protect kids they have to be as sure as they can be that it is not the state that does the damage.

Tao

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Orkney abuse children speak out
 
We can take their children away, but we still haven't changed their minds one tid bit. Why aren't the enslaved mormon women being taken away as well? And who is going to take care of those Mormon kids? Anyone who's grownup kids will vouch that they are a reasonably good parent and is willing to care for a child may take one of them. Otherwise, look into some other method to help future generations, because you are unlikely to improve the children's futures by placing them into US foster care. Here in the US, our impersonal government has failed to deliver social security for us. Why are workers from the 60's and 70's so easily homeless? People know that family security is inseparable from family rights and reputation, and Mormon kids are just going to have to grow up as Mormon kids.
 
We can take their children away, but we still haven't changed their minds one tid bit.
My thinking on this is "why should we be concerned with changing their minds?" Who are "we" to demand any other to conform to our wishes? It is a slippery slope, first we demand of others who are deemed "different." Then we narrow the definition of different, until all is one homogenous whole. One great big secular mass of mindless, thoughtless blobs of subservient flesh good only for servitude of the elite who will be the ones to dictate what is proper and what is not. There will be no more individuality, that includes no freedom of religion.
 
That's how it starts--with the extreme examples used as scare tactics to back up increased governing power--and less freedom and less justice for the mainstream. (Power-hungry governments just don't like that "due process" thing. :rolleyes: )

excellent.

it started with the seat belt law & you get punished if you forget to wear it, now they can take your children & give them to foster homes just because someone made a practical joke over the phone about your religion.

oh how they hate that due process thing, especially when it has to go state to state first & the constitution is just a Go*Da** piece of paper, according to our rich, know it all leader.:rolleyes:

Somehow, this is not what our forefathers had in mind when they thought of freedom, justice for all & independence.
 
My thinking on this is "why should we be concerned with changing their minds?" Who are "we" to demand any other to conform to our wishes? It is a slippery slope, first we demand of others who are deemed "different." .

because someone made it a law that you can only be married to one person. instead of them addressing that issue of the law itself between mom & dad, they just take your kids forever as punishment.

amazing how that works.

and if they can march in & take your kids that easily on just a phone call as proof, then the government has way too much power.
 
Well a couple of things happen from what i've heard in the group in question that raise issues ...

For one thing very young women below the legal age of consent are being married to men that are considerably older... So the young women do not have the opportunity to be say growing up and choosing a mate later in life by themselves and they miss having an education so this becomes a kind of exploiitation of very young women..

The other thing is that the young men who normally might be attracted to the young women are also ostracized and cast off fromthe community..so they are abandoned by the community. All in all it becomes a very exploitative kind of community where children are not allowed to grow up normally and make the choices they should have as they mature..

The state doesn't have a choice if young children are at risk of being exploited...similar if you will to the exploitation that occurred at Waco a few years back.

- Art:)
 
For one thing very young women below the legal age of consent are being married to men that are considerably older... So the young women do not have the opportunity to be say growing up and choosing a mate later in life by themselves and they miss having an education so this becomes a kind of exploiitation of very young women..

Its good to hear from you, Arthra, its been awhile.

To me, this is a smoke screen. That is the problem with family services across the country...there is no accountablity. Legally, according to several state constitutions and other state laws, family services are above the law...a law unto themselves. In complete defiance to the US Constitution, which grants the right to face one's accuser, among other things.

It wasn't all that long ago, perhaps 100 years, women routinely married and gave birth young; 14, 13, even 12. And this was accepted social norm, by no means limited to Mormons or any religious group. It was the way it was, and people thrived well enough that the US expanded west and filled in the gap between the Mississippi and California.

Things are different now, I get it. Women's rights, suffrage, education and employment, modern conveniences; I understand. There are mitigating factors. But we come back to cultural allowances and religious rights. I don't see anybody conducting a mass kidnapping of Amish children because their parents won't let them drive automobiles. I don't see a move afoot to re-educate Amish children (yet!) of their backwards ways and beliefs.

Hiding behind "underage marriage" is more smoke. To this point I have seen little to support any accusations of plural marriage. Underage marriage is again very limited in scope (only a handful). Besides, how many *unwed* teen mothers are there in inner cities? In my mind I find it more honorable to be married young with child than to not be married young with child, if a young mother is with child. And we're not talking rape either, to my knowledge none of these "young mothers" is so by rape.

The other thing is that the young men who normally might be attracted to the young women are also ostracized and cast off fromthe community..so they are abandoned by the community. All in all it becomes a very exploitative kind of community where children are not allowed to grow up normally and make the choices they should have as they mature..

I'm sorry but, to me, this sounds contrived in a sorry attempt to cover tracks. It is grasping at straws. The main legitimate argument was founded on an anonymous phone call to assist *one* young woman who claimed she was being forced against her will. In order to satisfy that one complaint, how many innocent and otherwise not indictable families are being torn apart over trumped up charges? When the trumped up charges began to unravel, all kinds of baseless accusations and groundless justifications began to shoot through the air. Kind of like the difference between a sniper rifle and a machine gun...if you have a legitimate complaint, you use the rifle to hit the target on the mark. If you have no legitimate complaint, you just throw up enough lead in every direction in such a hailstorm that you hope and pray something hits and sticks.

The state doesn't have a choice if young children are at risk of being exploited...similar if you will to the exploitation that occurred at Waco a few years back.

Devil's advocate for just a moment here: is it exploitation if the person is willing and amenable to the situation?

Besides the similarities with the so-called "victimless crimes," if a child grows up with a set of social norms different from our own, yet still within a supposedly open, "free" (Constitutionally guaranteed!) and accepting society; who are we to demand change? We aren't talking about subversive activities to overthrow the government. We are talking about the right to raise our kids as we see fit, to cherish the moral values we deem important, to appreciate their heritage and to promote their family. Without government interference. Or, if government in a worst case scenario must interfere, accusers must make themselves available for cross examination *and* be held liable for false accusations and slander and contempt.



See, this is the whole bit with the legalization of tolerance thing. Everywhere I look I see people talking about "why can't we all just get along?" The trouble is, they want everyone *else* to do as they do, and that's what they mean by "get along." Uh-uh, that's not how it works. That's not tolerance. Anybody who thinks it is, is in for a rude awakening. One day it will be their own value judgements at stake.

Personally I think this is a long overdue challenge to the unchecked power granted to family services. It really is about time a situation came about that forced the courts to examine the abuse of power and authority by family services. I hope it goes all the way to the Supreme Court, and an end is put to the nonsensical abuse of authority. I hope a check and balance is finally established for family services, that they are made accountable for their actions.
 
Last edited:
just to add my 2cents worth, where exactly does "honour" and unwed mothers, come into this......?????

Maybe I didn't explain well. Mothers are honorable.

My point is that it would seem, in a perfect world, that having the dad around too would be the ideal for a child. Would you not agree that it would be better for a child growing up to have *both* a mother's and father's influence in their lives?

Again, I know there are a lot of single parents out there that do wonderful things with next to nothing to work with. God Bless all of them. I am speaking of a social ideal when I say it seems better to have the dad around, even if the mom might be underage.
 
yeah , k, in a perfect world. (not in my world). Ill not take your words personally, Ill look at it as though, yes, I would have missed my fathers influence and love. in a perfect world......................
 
On family services..

Actually I think family services are among the most regulated and accountable services in the United States..

If you review the regulations in place it is clear that family servies are tightly regulated.

Consider the Welfare and Institutions Code say in California and the Family Services in Texas are no exception to this..

All cases brought before a Juvenile Court require all the children and parents to be fully represented by Counsel and the legislatures of all states have extensive provisions for family services.

That an appeals court went against a lower court is allso not so unusual..

The law though does require a lower burden of proof when protection of children are brought before a court and this case was difficult in that it had to be determined who were juveniles and who were not and who was related to whom hence all the DNA tests.. but there was no shortage of legal counsel for all the parties.

The fact remains that the particular group in question has a so-called "prophet" who can marry very young women to much older men now if you feel this is appropriate and should be condoned by the state I strongly disagree with you!

- Art
 
Actually I think family services are among the most regulated and accountable services in the United States..

If you review the regulations in place it is clear that family servies are tightly regulated.

Consider the Welfare and Institutions Code say in California and the Family Services in Texas are no exception to this..

All cases brought before a Juvenile Court require all the children and parents to be fully represented by Counsel and the legislatures of all states have extensive provisions for family services.
Representation simply means that attorneys have a field day raking in the bucks. It does not dismiss the lack of accountability for false accusations and liability for ruining families' lives.

The law though does require a lower burden of proof when protection of children are brought before a court and this case was difficult in that it had to be determined who were juveniles and who were not and who was related to whom hence all the DNA tests.. but there was no shortage of legal counsel for all the parties.
OK, so its alright to hang 'em as long as its done with a brand new rope? I am being facetious to make the point. "Lower burden of proof" in this case means family services can break up a family on groundless and even false charges. I was watching a PBS program some time back regarding family services and it struck me how the social workers (in some cases, not all) exploit their status of "lower burden of proof" to their benefit. They can say anything they want to, and get away with it, because they are not required to "prove" their allegations.

The fact remains that the particular group in question has a so-called "prophet" who can marry very young women to much older men now if you feel this is appropriate and should be condoned by the state I strongly disagree with you!

Now this is the very kind of intolerant thinking I spoke of earlier. What difference does it make that this group has (a) prophet(s) they believe in? Do you believe in any prophets? So you disagree with their teachings? So what if I disagree with your teachings? Does might equal right? What I think on this matter is irrelevent. What you think on this matter is irrelevent. If they are not a threat to the greater society, than what we really have is a bunch of nosey goodie-goodies with nothing better to do than make other people's business their own by brandishing an *inordinate* and disproportionate amount of political power around without any checks or balances, immune to recourse when they get it wrong.

And it looks like the courts are figuring out that they did in fact do it very wrong this time. I hope those nosey people get slapped really good, so they get a little better focus on what family services is supposed to be about rather than abusing their authority.

Of particular note consider reading the sections on "plural marriage" and "lost boys".. 400 of whom have been "excommunicated".

I skimmed the article, so its possible I missed this, but I was looking for the material relevent to what is going on now. This is what I found:

In July 2005, a half-dozen lost boys who say they were cast out of their homes on the Utah–Arizona border to reduce competition for wives, filed suit against the FLDS Church. "The [boys] have been excommunicated pursuant to that policy and practice and have been cut off from family, friends, benefits, business and employment relationships, and purportedly condemned to eternal damnation," their suit says. "They have become 'lost boys' in the world outside the FLDS community."[citation needed]

A half dozen is not 400. What is more, there is nothing to substantiate the allegation, "citation needed." That doesn't make it false, but it surely doesn't help its case towards being truth either. Anybody can say anything they like on Wiki, so these articles really do need to be taken with a grain of salt, especially without a reference to back them up. Hmmm, sounds like a theme developing...
 
Juantoo wrote:

"Lower burden of proof" in this case means family services can break up a family on groundless and even false charges.

My comment:

What it means is that the standard of proof is not as great when minors are involved... How long would you wait for the standard of proof to be self evident? When the child has bruises? broken bones? is pregnant? has a child themselves? is deprived education? The charges were not found groundless by the Juvenile court...


Juantoo wrote:

If they are not a threat to the greater society, than what we really have is a bunch of nosey goodie-goodies with nothing better to do than make other people's business their own by brandishing an *inordinate* and disproportionate amount of political power around without any checks or balances, immune to recourse when they get it wrong.

My reply:

Is having a "prophet" dictate who you can marry a problem for you?

Especially inexperience young women with older men who already have wives?

Is having a "prophet" who can take away a wife and children from a man a problem?

This is about control.
 
Is having a "prophet" dictate who you can marry a problem for you?

Especially inexperience young women with older men who already have wives?

Is having a "prophet" who can take away a wife and children from a man a problem?

This is about control.
Following a prophet has not become a crime, has it? If so there's a lot of us in doo-doo.

Control is only a marginal issue, one being used to usurp the real issue, erosion of Constitutionally guaranteed personal rights...like freedom of religion and the right to face one's accusers. The real issue is the abuse of unchecked political power, and the un-Constitutional establishment of same.
 
Back
Top