Shinto!!

Discussion in 'Eastern Religions and Philosophies' started by 17th Angel, May 30, 2008.

  1. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    There`s a video on YouTube I found, I could have sworn I bookmarked it, but I can`t find it.

    It was a video explaining how Jiujutsu and particular styles of Japanese sword fighting are in fact parallel actions. Meaning every Jiujutsu move completely converts into a sword technique and vise-versa in conjuction to aiki (chi).

    Well instead for now I`ll post this link on how kendo was 50 years ago. If you`ve never seen this you`d be surprised. YouTube - 50?????

    TK
     
  2. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Thats weird because I thought the sound from a live blade came from
    the shinogi? The suburi bokken I have has one of those grooves
    along the back just so that the practitioner can hear that whistle
    to see if he is swinging the blade correctly.... the sound isn't as
    harmonic as I imagine it would be in a real blade, but it serves it purpose.


    Not my disposition either actually

    but since im like ultra fatalistic, i figure, if your gonna get
    caught in an ambush like that, your gonna get caught one way
    or another anyway, so I'd just politely tell the guy the
    time and see what happens the next second and respond
    appropriately when that next second comes.

    The guy basically punched the guy out of fear... and fear
    of a threat that might not even have existed at all... but that
    seems kinda pointless considering the real threat might have
    been waiting for him around the corner.



    I was not even aware of that. I don't like to compare martial art styles,
    but I think if I had to choose one, I would probably choose ninjitsu
    simply because of its versatility. But it'd be hard to find a place to train though...
    i would love to train in iajitsu but i just never found any place near toronto
    Maybe these Kendo guys could give me some tips.. so far all i got is a book
    called Flashing Steel I picked up a couple of years ago


    I actually have. The... content of the movie was kinda... surprising
    but the parts with the trainees in the dojo practicing with their bokkens..
    I watched that part over and over again. And that last scene, when he
    cuts the tree in half!!!! If I remember correctly, that was a drawing strike too!!



    Good example is in that Kurosawa flick Seven Samurai
    When they are testing samurais as they walk through the door,
    and the fat one just stops before even entering, cuz he spots the
    shadow of the guy waiting for him on the other side... that was klassic


    Its fatal to enter a war without the will to win it
    --MacArthur
     
  3. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    I prefer the story of the modern day mystic who when got the tap on the shoulder and turned and was confronted by the thug with a gun in his face...said to him, "But Brother, I love you!" To which the guy stood there, and then turned as he put the gun away and walked away.

    My understanding is there is a disposition similar in most martial arts too, no? That thought that the training is enough and doesn't always have to be used?
     
  4. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    Yep... its the basic principle of The Art of War
    Even though Sun Tzu was talking about making your
    position so strong that tactically, your enemy would
    not be in a position to engage you... but what you are
    talking about requires social skills, and the application of
    those skills also require training. And if they are successful,
    they achieve the same result.
     
  5. seattlegal

    seattlegal Why do cows say mu?

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    *nods head vigorously* In this sense, it's easy to see how ones sword could often be viewed as an extenstion of oneself.
     
  6. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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  7. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    For the Ninjutsu lovers.

    Free Jazz drummer & Budo, Japanese Martial Arts Researcher (master)

    Hino Akira.
    YouTube - SRS?????? ?? ?? ? 3
    (knowing when people shoot)

    YouTube - SRS???????????????1

    YouTube - SRS?????? ?? ?? ? 2
    (using peoples reflexes against them)


    Known in Germany. Researched Aikido, and associates with Hatsumi Masa-aki (founder of Bushinkan) of Kogakure Ninjutsu. Teaches Japanese atheletes on how to optimize and lately associates with American ballet dancer William Forsythe as well.

    IMO, seems real enough. Don`t know but he seems like a nice guy and have friends worldwide. When it gets to people like him, I think it is beyond the scope of Shinto, and I think it is appropriate to integrate buddhism, Zen and all the other disciplines.

    TK

    p.s. currently there is no known link between the real ninja`s of the old days to the present, since ninja families were wiped out by the Tokugawa shogunates. Hatsumi Masa-aki claims to be the 34th Inheritor of Kogakure-ryu Ninjutsu.
     
  8. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Don`t challenge karate(buddhism), if you`re not a fighter..

    Yanagi Ryuken(self claimed chi-master) gets his ass kicked by karate guy.
    YouTube - ??????????)????????????

    TK
     
  9. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    The reason why the question marks showup on your screen is because all these video links contain Japanese characters. So you need to have a Japan OS computer to see these links, and be able to write Japanese to find these videos on YouTube.

    Hope you enjoy!

    TK
     
  10. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    btw I found out a couple of years ago that the reason why TaeKwonDo guys are taught to keep their hands higher up and parallel to each other is because the original technique was developed for Korean soldiers and it was expected that they would be holding a rifle in their hands while fighting (when they run out of ammo, or in close quarters), and this also explains the emphasis on leg work rather then hand strikes. The person also said that the man who was developing the style, the army officer, died, leaving the art incomplete. I never actually bothered to confirm this story, but it made so much sense I just took it at face value...

    p.s. TK thanx again 4 the vids !!
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I think the killer fights made the headlines, as it were.

    Yagyu Munetoshi, founder of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, was a student of Kamiizumi Hidetsuna of the Shinkage Ryu, who was a student of ... of the Kage Ryu ...

    They met in a 'friendly' duel. I think there was a lot of that. Is it 'musa shugo', the 'warrior journey' where they travel the company engaging other masters and styles ... ?

    The bloody Mushashi duels were vendettas, rather than fought in the quest to perfect one's art. I think when seeking to learn and grow, swordsmen tried to avoid killing each other, or getting killed. Musashi's fights with Gonnosuke, for example, were towards perfecting one's skill.

    My take, anyway ...

    Agreed. But they do chip, and a tempered blade edge is harder than a helmet. But they are prone to lateral pressure, and bend. And snap. But if it's a choice between a bent blade, or a severed head ...

    Thomas
     
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    And while you look at your watch he sticks a knife in your gut.

    No, he did it because you can never let your opponent have the initiative. So his solution was the Geordie way. If the guy really just wanted to know the time, tough, shouldn't creep up behind people in the dead of night. Better to deal with the real threat, than wait for the imaginary one ... in so doing, you'll miss the real one.

    Balanced with that:
    1: A man gets held up at knife point. "Give me your wallet!" The man is in a panic, stuttering, trembling, he can hardly get the thing out of his pocket, he's too frightened to reach out to the mugger, and as he hands the wallet over, it slips from his fingers ... the mugger snatches at it ... and the next thing he knows, is waking up in a police car.

    Different solution, but this guy, whom I know, is serious stuff.

    2: From another source — One of the top karate guys in the UK served with the Royal Navy. He does brick-breaking demonstrations, I think he held a record ... anyway, he was mugged in New York, and politely explained to the guy who he was, what a school he trained in, what rank he held, and no, he wasn't going to hand over his wallet. The mugger didn't believe him. The mugger died. The NYPD requested that he say on board his ship.

    +++
    Takes all sorts! I watch that dojo sequence over and over. The bit I like is the 2nd duel, the kid in question, their bokken don't 'clack' so violently, a softer sound suggesting so i guess they're not hacking at each other's blades (as in the 'real deal' later when the old guy breaks his leg) ... the actions at a lot closer range, too.

    Thomas
     
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    A co-worker went to a Karate demo by a Buddhist school. They saw three stages:
    1: The guy attacks, you react, defend, and strike.
    2: The guy attacks but you respond simultaneously and 'smother' his attack before it even develops.
    3: The idea of attacking you goes out of the guy's head.

    +++

    Master Swordsman Tesshu was alive in the mid 1800s so there's a ton of attested material about him. Japan was brewing up for a civil war between the Shogunate (military governors) and supporters of the Emperor. Tokyo was filling up with hot heads, was 'policed' by self-elected paramilitary militias, it was like prohibition Chicago.

    So Tesshu decided to keep the peace by starting a kendo club, attracting all the hotheads cos he was a famous fighter, and working them so hard they were too tired to go out and cause trouble. It worked, but he was always suspect by the authorities as well as the gangs.

    One gang hired an assassin, a strangler, to get rid of him. The assassin watched, followed him through the streets, and made his move — but each time he moved Tesshu changed direction, or stepped into a shop, or ... until the assassin realised he was totally outclassed. Eventually the assassin caught up with him in an inn. "I'm supposed to kill you" he said. "Really? How?" "I strangle!" "Really, show me!" Tesshu obediently leant over (he was a very big man) and the assassin took his grip ... but could not strangle the man.

    One day, Tesshu decided to talk the the authorities in Edo Castle, even though he knew he was 'persona non grata'. The Shogunate was so jumpy, they had a guard spaced evenly every hundred paces along both sides of the broad avenue leading to the gate, with orders that no-one passes without authorisation and escort.

    So the Master of the Guard was somewhat surprised when Tesshu knocked on the door unaccompanied and unannounced. At a convenient point in the conversation, he said, "Tell me, did you notice my sentries as you came here?" "Oh yes!" nodded Tesshu, "and very impressive they look, too!"

    My favourite:
    When the Yagyu Ryu were chosen as sword teachers to the Shogunate, its fame and fortune was secured. Yagyu Munenori handed over the running of the school to his sons, and retired.

    One day, his servant stepped out onto the veranda at the back of the house to watch the old man tending his flowers. Munenori looked up, stopped what he was doing, and walked off to a small tea house at the back of the garden.

    Three days later, the servant decided he'd better find out what was going on in there. "My mind is going," the old man explained, "I've come here to prepare for my death." "Why, what makes you think that?" asked his servant.
    "D'you remember, when I was gardening? Suddenly I knew I was at risk, under attack. I looked up, and there was only you there. You would never attack me, so my mind is playing tricks. My life is drawing to its close."
    "Master," the servant replied, "when I walked out and saw you I thought, 'how peaceful, how serene, and yet I know, if someone should attack him right now, without warning, in an instant that man would be facing a tiger!"
    History does not record what Munenori said, but he came out of the tea house and carried on with his gardening, and the enjoyment of his retirement.

    Me? If I were Munenori, I'd have kicked him. "Three days? You let me sit in here for three days before telling me that?!"

    Thomas
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2009
  14. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Thomas,

    I`ve been wondering about this for a while, but is there anyway you can tell me what the kage(shadow) is about in the kage-ryu`s?

    As I think its way more than a ninja thinking style and strategy, I have a hunch that it is a perspective when fighting with regards to how to view the shadows of things. I sense a potential world out there.

    If you happen to know anything in the books, or know yourself, I`d be delighted to hear about it as I can`t find that information anywhere on the Internet. I guess I could go and buy a really thick expensive book thats gonna explain that somewhere..

    Best regards,


    TK
     
  15. c0de

    c0de Vassal

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    If he wanted to stab me, why would he ask me for the time
    >>forcing me to turn and face him?<< In the scenario you set,
    the guy is already behind me when he asks the time,
    so if he wanted to stab me he would have done it without
    trying to get my attention.

    Also, if I am looking at my watch, I have to extend
    my forearm, which would actually bring a barrier between his knife
    and my gut, so you would actually be in a better position to block
    an incoming strike. Another reason to actually be nice and give the
    man some time... (and observe the situation)


    But he did not know if this guy was an "opponent" when he punched him.
    That is the point. So the first rule actually is: Identify Friend or Foe.
    (You don't just assume that everyone is a threat and kill everyone when
    you breach and clear a room, do ya?) The whole point of martial arts
    is to avoid that utilitarian ends justifies the means mentality. Especially
    when the only harm is to yourself, as you are supposed to put your own
    safety as your last priority. That is the spirit of Bushido correct?

    Walk through life as though you have already died, and you will lose all
    such considerations and be able to risk your life to serve a higher purpose.
    If you can't even devalue yourself this much to ID a threat before pulling
    the trigger.... you are pretty far from anything resembling a true "samurai"

    The fact is that this grunt made the wrong decision.... He punched a civie
    in the face cuz he thought he might be a threat...

    I was just watching a doc on the SEALS and guess what, they have very
    little respect for the preservation of a higher purpose, just like this grunt...
    To them, its just about saving their own @$$ and their own team's safety.
    Everything else comes second to this... Very non-Bushido
    (and very un-Islamic/Christian/Judaic too actually).

    I don't know how much honor was actually present in the old battlefields,
    but I know very little of it is present today, exactly because these
    soldiers are just that, soldiers.... And a soldier is very far from being
    a warrior. A basic pre-req of which is letting go of the attachment
    one has to his own life, and this world in general. So that you can
    actually serve a higher purpose.
     
  16. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    That's twice you've surprised me in this thread.
     
  17. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Now!!!
    To the great Kahuna of the topic of this thread I present to you,

    Morihei Ueshiba of Shinto Japan.


    IMO, he is the first modern samurai, and a prophet of Shinto.
    His emphasis on martial arts was not as an art to kill but a message of love.

    You name it, he`s done it all and knew more of the world than any Japanese warrior in the past, and integrated.


    YouTube - Morihei Ueshiba
    YouTube - MORIHEI UESHIBA 1935
    YouTube - O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba Interview
    YouTube - Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido - devine techniques 1-4
    YouTube - Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido - devine techniques 3-4
    YouTube - Morihei Ueshiba and Aikido - devine techni 4-4


    He knew all about other martial arts foreign and native. When he was young after he came back from war, he went to the mountains to further train himself as his original goal was to become the strongest man in the world.
    He would drag trunks of trees, raise and wrestle with bears. You know why he is strong. He could probably break people like twigs.

    On top of that he was very in-tune with the spiritual aspects of our world all his life, and that is why he is different from all the other martial artists of our times. He seems to have been revealed a revelation.

    I cannot begin to express how great this man is, and his contribution to this world is yet to be known. But no, he is not the second coming of Christ. I think..:)

    Thank God for YouTube, cameras and audio tapes, Amen!!!

    TK

    p.s. in the future I will take the liberty to post any video that impresses me with regards to martial arts as well. For fun.
     
  18. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Impressive video section on martial arts and violence Vol1.

    YouTube - Daito-ryu: from kenjutsu to jujutsu
    (this is the video I was talking about, more boring than I thought..)
    Daito-ryu is from Takeda Sokaku an older martial arts brother of Ueshiba mentioned above. But Takeda was the traditional old samurai he fought everything from tyrants to dogs, to gangsters, and sometimes supposedly tried to seduce wifes, thus I categorize him as the old-type samurai. He even killed every dog that barked at him.
    But his is legendary and honorable in his own right.

    YouTube - ??????????? (I`ve been longing to see this footwork with my own eyes from an expert) This footwork is very similar to a Pa Kua Chang style that was exclusive to the body guards of the Chinese imperial courts at one time. The grand master rights are passed onto only one person per generation and he is a Korean raised in China who currently lives in Richmond VA. Strong Mountain Kung Fu School in Richmond, VA
    I never thought I`d see this footwork in Karate, and in Japan.

    YouTube - ?????????? (major dork, you think)
    YouTube - yanagawa masahiro (but after watching this I think he might take me down, depressing somewhat) (good example of buddhist martial arts influenced by Shinto because he swings a sword)


    YouTube - Wing chun fast hands (don`t mess with this guy, fastest guy I`ve seen on the internet!!)

    Now to some examples on real life violence.
    YouTube - slap knock out (biggest knock out I`ve seen on the streets and it was a bitch slap) (I like it how the victim is tucked to his side so that he doesn`t die by choking on his own puke)

    YouTube - Pimp vs Karate (tough in front of the lady`s, think twice)

    http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=AGEtB5KAlJY
    The most embarassing thing that could happen to a tough guy.
    (tough guy smashes girls pumpkin must have been before halloween.. then gets knocked out by chic and have that video posted on YouTube, LOL.. !!!) I think they were ex`s. LA, sigh...


    TK
     
  19. Thomas

    Thomas Well-Known Member

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    I've got a book by Dave Lowry "Autumn Lightning" which is well respected, and he trained under a Yagyu Shingake Ryu sensei, and covers a lot of historical detail. I'll have to dig it out, as those books have been relegated to 'cobweb castle' (if you know Kurosawa's 'Throne of Blood', considered one of the best film versions of a Shakespeare play).

    A vague memory seems to imply the 'shadow' aspect is to do with acting in accord with your opponent's actions, so close that you seem to be his shadow, you know? You move, and the shadow of your hand moves simultaneously ... then you get into 'no-mind' and the fact that the shadow flows from its object without pause, thought, hindrance, interference ... anyway, I could be off into fantasyland here, so I'll go and dig a couple of books out and see what I can find.

    I was going to advise trying to find "Legacies of the Sword: The Kashima-Shinryu and Samurai Martial Culture" Karl F Friday with Seki Humitake, University of Hawai'i Press, 1997, because he touches on something, then ...

    Newsflash
    Take a look at the website of the Kashima Shinryu which gives a brief insight into the use of 'kage' (scroll down the page to the entry on Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Fujiwara no Hidetsuna).

    Haven't read it myself yet ... but looks an interesting site.

    Thomas
     
  20. TheKhan

    TheKhan All Natural

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    Thanks for the info on "Kage". It makes sense to me, its a start as I didn`t have much clue. I was thinking of a concentration method where the shadows appear clearly too and putting meaning or feeling in action.

    The reference link seems very interesting! I will take my time to read it.
    Thanks again!

    TK

    p.s. Now I need to go and do some Salsa dancing :D Personally Kashima-shinto-ryu is the style that fits my personality the most. But the Katori-shinto-ryu`s and shin-kage-ryu`s definately have a point. I am yet to dig into all this.
     

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