History of the Sabbath

Wavy_Wonder1

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Here's something I wrote recently explaining my basic position:

Scholars today are generally not quite certain of the origin of the Jewish Sabbath, or Calendar for that matter [1], but of the views represented I tend to agree with the view that the Sabbath day was once regarded and celebrated in Israel's ancient past as a lunar event, probably borrowed from Babylonia; that is to say, it was originally calculated by the phases of the moon. This was recognized as early as the 19th century:
The older theories of the origin of the Jewish Sabbath (connecting it with Egypt, with the day of Saturn, or in general with the seven planets) have now been almost entirely abandoned. The disposition at present is to regard the day as originally a lunar festival, similar to a Babylonian custom.[2]

On into the 20th century this view prevailed:
The name, Sabbath, first appears in Babylonia and as an institution may, in fact, be traced back to the early pre-Semitic inhabitants of that land, the Sumerians. In a bilingual tablet, K.6012 + K.10684, containing a list of the days of the month, the equation U-XV-KAM = sa-bat-ti (line 13) appears, i.e. the 15th day of the month was known in Babylonia as the sabattu, and further, it is the only one of the month that is so named...We would infer, then, that the sabattu was identical with the day of the full moon and with it alone.[3]


The Babylonians developed and used a lunar calendar[4]. Their months were synodic (i.e., corresponded to the phases of the moon) and the 15th day here is significant because the full moon phase coincides with the 15th day of every synodic month (cf. Psalm lxxxi.3). This day held special significance with the Israelites as it marked the beginning of two of the most important feasts in Israel: the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Tabernacles (see Leviticus xxiii.6, 34). The count to Pentecost was also counted from the 15th of day of Unleavened Bread (the first day of this seven-day feast) which is explicitly called the Sabbath in Leviticus xxiii.15. The LXX reads 'first day' here (referring to the 15th of Unleavened Bread, called the 'Sabbath' in the Masoretic Text) and this was understood in the first century by the Pharisees[5] and by Josephus[6].

The introduction of the Sabbath recurring every seventh day after an interval of six work days in the Priestly tradition (Genesis i.1-ii.3; Exodus xx.11; Leviticus xxiii.3, etc.) places the Sabbath at the end of each lunar week of the synodic month in accord with the phases of the moon: namely, the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of the month. This is possible because the day of the new moon (the 1st day of any given month) was not counted in the seven-day cycle (cf. Ezekiel xlvi.1), placing the Sabbaths on the same days each month (the first day of the first lunar week beginning with the 2nd day of the month). A perfect illustration of this is found in Exodus xvi, where Israel arrives in the Wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the second month (verse 1). I understand the mention of 'Sin' here (the moon god and one of the chief deities in the Babylonian pantheon) as deliberate, for in this chapter, the first recorded instance in the Hebrew bible of Israel observing the Sabbath, the god Yahweh appropriates the Sabbath to serve as a holy institute for Israel to keep in honor of himself (verse 23) every seventh day of the lunar week in the synodic month (as opposed to only the full moon, or 15th).

But observe the chronology here: Israel arrived in the Wilderness of Sin on the 15th day of the month, 'grumbled' about the shortage of food, and Yahweh commands them to gather bread for the next six days (twice the daily portion on the sixth day) and rest on the seventh (verses 2-5). As it happens, the next six days fall on the following dates:

16th (1)
17th (2)
18th (3)
19th (4)
20th (5)
21st (6)

That places the 7th day (Sabbath) on the 22nd day of the month with the next one trailing behind on the 29th. Counting backwards from the 22nd that places the previous Sabbaths on the 15th and 8th days of the month...in perfect accord with the understanding above, and this is no mere coincidence.

Scholars are also uncertain of when the change to the uninterrupted, contiguous cycle of seven days culminating with the Sabbath took place (i.e., what is known today as the Sabbath or 'Saturday')[7]. Conjecture as to when this occurred ranges from the pre-exilic period (when prophets like Isaiah were condemning Israel for idolatry associated with the celestial bodies including the moon; cf. Isaiah xxiv.21) to the exilic period during the ministries of prophets like Ezekiel[8].

I, however, believe lunar Sabbaths were kept down to at least the first century, even if not universally, based upon the writings of Philo, where he correlates the weeks with the phases of the moon[9], associates the keeping of the Sabbath with the count from the new moon[10], correlates the Sabbath with the feast days[11], just as done above, and explicates the significance of the number 7 in the context of the phases of the moon and the seventh day.[12]

As of yet in my studies I know of no evidence refuting the practice of lunar Sabbaths in Israel.

Thanks,
E.L.B.




[1] See S. J. De Vries, 'Calendar', The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Abingdon Press, 1962, vol. 2, pp. 483-488
[sup]2[/sup] C. H. Toy, 'The Earliest Form of the Sabbath', Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 18, no. 1/2, 1899, p.190 (referencing the earlier treatments of Lotz, Nowack, and Wellhausen)
[3] T. J. Meek, 'The Sabbath in the Old Testament: (Its Origin and Development)', JBL, vol. 33, no. 3, 1914, p. 202.
[4] See 'Calendar', Encyc. Brit., Macro., 15th ed., 1990, vol. 15, p. 463
[5] Meg. Ta'an. i.; Men. 65a. Reference: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...arch=sadducees
[6] Antiquities, Book iii, 10.5-6
[7] See E. G. Kraeling, 'The Present Status of the Sabbath Question', The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, vol. 49, no. 3, 1933, pp. 218-228
[8] See Meek, 'The Sabbath in the Old Testament'
[9] Congr. XIX (106)
[10] Decal. XX (96)
[11] ibid., XXX (159)
[12] Spec. leg., i, 178; LA, i, 8.
 

brucegdc

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An interesting assertion, Wavy. I've taken one of the two copies of the post and moved it to Belief & Spirituality as it's probably a better location for this discussion - more visibility and it's likely to focus on historical data rather than the faith specifics.
 

sonoman

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I think the Sabbath is a carryover from Vedic Brahmin origins. The sun and saturn were associated with Brahma worship and I am convinced the timing linkage between the drying up of the Sarasvati river and its Vedic civilization somewhere between 3000 BC and 2000 BC forcing the Brahmin communities to move out and the story of Abraham and Sarah and Melchizedek, are Hindu Vedic legends of Brahma and his consort Sarasvati that have become lost in translation. There is too many "coincidences" of names and story features between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the Vedic beliefs about Brahma and Sarasvati. Melchizedek shows up as a version of Maliksadaksina, a Vedic prince with magical powers, "Hagar" shows up like Sarasvati as another goddesses named after a river, the Ghaggar-Hakra river, the main tributary (handmaiden) of the Sarasvati river from which the goddess Sarasvati is named. This borrowing of religious items from Vedic India by Judaism has been noted before all the way back to Roman historians. Even Voltaire saw it but now with the Internet and Hindu scholars posting we will find more and more Vedic origins for Judaism and Islam. Mecca was a Arabic Vedic worship center before Muhammad changed all that.
 

Wavy_Wonder1

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Interesting. So of what import is this to us groundlings?

Chris

This thread was made by the moderator 'brucegdc', carried over from the Judaism forum in a thread about the Sabbath. My post was originally made there to answer a request to supply evidence that the Sabbath, in antiquity, did not fall at the end of an uninterrupted septenary cycle. 'Saturday' was not always originally the Sabbath day.

Thanks,
E.L.B.
 

Wavy_Wonder1

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Evidence/documentation

I think the Sabbath is a carryover from Vedic Brahmin origins. The sun and saturn were associated with Brahma worship and I am convinced the timing linkage between the drying up of the Sarasvati river and its Vedic civilization somewhere between 3000 BC and 2000 BC forcing the Brahmin communities to move out and the story of Abraham and Sarah and Melchizedek, are Hindu Vedic legends of Brahma and his consort Sarasvati that have become lost in translation. There is too many "coincidences" of names and story features between the story of Abraham and Sarah and the Vedic beliefs about Brahma and Sarasvati. Melchizedek shows up as a version of Maliksadaksina, a Vedic prince with magical powers, "Hagar" shows up like Sarasvati as another goddesses named after a river, the Ghaggar-Hakra river, the main tributary (handmaiden) of the Sarasvati river from which the goddess Sarasvati is named. This borrowing of religious items from Vedic India by Judaism has been noted before all the way back to Roman historians. Even Voltaire saw it but now with the Internet and Hindu scholars posting we will find more and more Vedic origins for Judaism and Islam. Mecca was a Arabic Vedic worship center before Muhammad changed all that.

I'd be interested in seeing documentation with accompanying evidence supporting this hypothesis.


Thanks,
E.L.B.
 

sonoman

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The Saturn connection to Brahma is mentioned in Wikipedia's entries on Brahma if memory serves. I also got this off a Hindu Internet discussion on Brahma and the Sabbath.

"There are actually two 'Brahmas'. In this aspect, and according to Vedas, both Sun and Saturn are considered Brahmas. However, note that Sun and Saturn are worst enemies. According to Parasara, who explained and expanded the science of Jyotish, Sun is the Brahma of what can be termed "unborn souls." However, since that means that the life-form (born individual, animal, etc.) must die (in order to be unborn), Sun is also known as the Mahesha of the living things. Therefore, Sun gives birth to body-less souls (after killing) and therefore he is the Brahma who gives "Moksha" or "Nirvana" (Buddhism). Saturn on the other hand, seduces unborn souls towards (again) rebirth. Therefore, Saturn is Brahma of those who are born. Brahmins usually do not worship Saturn, because since Saturn is the creator of all life (on our planet - as in born souls), even his wife is created by him (Saraswati), and therefore, it is considered that Brahma indulged in incest (I think you know what I mean). This is the reason why Brahmins avoid worshipping Saturn, and also, worshipping Saturn usually brings misery and tough life."--Hindu blogger Ron

Here are some earlier historical references:

--"In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)

Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"
"Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

For the majority of information linguistic professor Gene Matlock has done the most research but I believe he's taken the Hindu Vedic ball and run out of the ballpark with it. Still, his basic information about the Brahma/Sarasvati/Abraham/Sarah connection is true.

"There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences. Although in all of India there is only one temple dedicated to Brahma, this cult is the third largest Hindu sect.
In his book Moisés y los Extraterrestres, Mexican author Tomás Doreste states, Voltaire was of the opinion that Abraham descended from some of the numerous Brahman priests who left India to spread their teachings throughout the world; and in support of his thesis he presented the following elements: the similarity of names and the fact that the city of Ur, land of the patriarchs, was near the border of Persia, the road to India, where that Brahman had been born. The name of Brahma was highly respected in India, and his influence spread throughout Persia as far as the lands bathed by the rivers Euphrates and Tigris. The Persians adopted Brahma and made him their own. Later they would say that the God arrived from Bactria, a mountainous region situated midway on the road to India. (pp. 46-47.) Bactria (a region of ancient Afghanistan) was the locality of a prototypical Jewish nation called Juhuda or Jaguda, also called Ur-Jaguda. Ur meant "place or town." Therefore, the bible was correct in stating that Abraham came from "Ur of the Chaldeans." "Chaldean," more correctly Kaul-Deva (Holy Kauls), was not the name of a specific ethnicity but the title of an ancient Hindu Brahmanical priestly caste who lived in what are now Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Indian state of Kashmir. "The tribe of Ioud or the Brahmin Abraham, was expelled from or left the Maturea of the kingdom of Oude in India and, settling in Goshen, or the house of the Sun or Heliopolis in Egypt, gave it the name of the place which they had left in India, Maturea." (Anacalypsis; Vol. I, p. 405.) "He was of the religion or sect of Persia, and of Melchizedek."(Vol. I, p. 364.) "The Persians also claim Ibrahim, i.e. Abraham, for their founder, as well as the Jews. Thus we see that according to all ancient history the Persians, the Jews, and the Arabians are descendants of Abraham.(p.85) ...We are told that Terah, the father of Abraham, originally came from an Eastern country called Ur, of the Chaldees or Culdees, to dwell in a district called Mesopotamia. Some time after he had dwelt there, Abraham, or Abram, or Brahma, and his wife Sara or Sarai, or Sara-iswati, left their father's family and came into Canaan. The identity of Abraham and Sara with Brahma and Saraiswati was first pointed out by the Jesuit missionaries."(Vol. I; p. 387.)

--In Hindu mythology, Sarai-Svati is Brahm's sister. The bible gives two stories of Abraham. In this first version, Abraham told Pharaoh that he was lying when he introduced Sarai as his sister. In the second version, he also told the king of Gerar that Sarai was really his sister. However, when the king scolded him for lying, Abraham said that Sarai was in reality both his wife and his sister! "...and yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12.)

But the anomalies don't end here. In India, a tributary of the river Saraisvati is Ghaggar. Another tributary of the same river is Hakra. According to Jewish traditions, Hagar was Sarai's maidservant; the Moslems say she was an Egyptian princess. Notice the similarities of Ghaggar, Hakra and Hagar.

The bible also states that Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants lived in India. "...Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin... They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur." (Genesis 25:17-18.) It is an interesting fact that the names of Isaac and Ishmael are derive from Sanskrit: (Hebrew) Ishaak = (Sanskrit) Ishakhu = "Friend of Shiva." (Hebrew) Ishmael = (Sanskrit) Ish-Mahal = "Great Shiva."

About 1900 BC, the cult of Brahm was carried to the Middle and Near East by several different Indian groups after a severe rainfall and earthquake tore Northern India apart, even changing the courses of the Indus and Saraisvati rivers. The classical geographer Strabo tells us just how nearly complete the abandonment of Northwestern India was. "Aristobolus says that when he was sent upon a certain mission in India, he saw a country of more than a thousand cities, together with villages, that had been deserted because the Indus had abandoned its proper bed." (Strabo's Geography, XV.I.19.)

"The drying up of the Sarasvati around 1900 BCE, which led to a major relocation of the population centered around in the Sindhu and the Sarasvati valleys, could have been the event that caused a migration westward from India. It is soon after this time that the Indic element begins to appear all over West Asia, Egypt, and Greece."
(Indic Ideas in the Graeco-Roman World, by Subhash Kak, taken from IndiaStar online literary magazine; p.14)

--Indian historian Kuttikhat Purushothama Chon believes that Abraham was driven out of India. He states that the Aryans, unable to defeat the Asuras (The mercantile caste that once ruled in the Indus Valley or Harappans) spent so many years fighting covertly against the Asuras, such as destroying their huge system of irrigation lakes, causing destructive flooding, that Abraham and his kindred just gave up and marched to West Asia. (See Remedy the Frauds in Hinduism.) Therefore, besides being driven out of Northern India by floods, the Aryans also forced Indian merchants, artisans, and educated classes to flee to West Asia.

In India, the Hittites were also known as Cedis or Chedis (pronounced Hatti or Khetti). Indian historians classify them as one of the oldest castes of the Yadavas. "The Cedis formed one of the most ancient tribes among the Ksatriyas (the aristocratic class made up of Hittites and Kassites) in early Vedic times. As early as the period of the Rgveda the Cedi kings had acquired great reknown... they are one of the leading powers in northern India in the great epic." (Yadavas Through the Ages, p. 90.) Ram or Rama also belonged to the Yadava clan. If our Abraham, Brahm, and Ram are the one and the same person, Abraham went to Jerusalem to be with his own people!

--Ram's congregations segregated themselves in their own communities, called Ayodhya, which in Sanskrit means "The Unconquerable." The Sanskrit word for "fighter" is Yuddha or Yudh. Abraham and his group belonged to the Ayodhya (Yehudiya, Judea) congregation who remained aloof from non-believers and Amalekites (Aryans?).

*-from The Dictionary of the Kashmiri Language by George A. Grierson, pg. 865
Sadakh – A magician; one possessed of supernational powers; esp. of powers gained by worshipping a deity or uttering charms. Sudakshen – Name of a son of a king of Kashi or Kasi. In Sanskrit, it is Sadaksina or Sudaksina Melik or Malik is a North Indian and Kashmiri term for King; Lord; Master. He was a teacher of Brahma, a son of Krishna and father of Maheshvar.

why doesn't History mention them?

The exodus of refugees out of ancient India did not occur all at once but over a period of one or more thousand years. If all these refugee ruling peoples were exclusively of Indian heritage, why doesn't History mention them? Indeed they are mentioned as Kassites, Hittites, Syrians, Assyrians, Hurrians, Arameans, Hyksos, Mittanians, Amalekites, Aethiops (Atha-Yop), Phoenicians, Chaldeans, and many others. But we have been wrongly taught to regard them as ethnicities indigenous to Western Asia. Our history books also call them "Indo-Europeans," causing us to wonder where they were really from. "The people of India came to realize their social identity in terms of Varna and Jati (societal functions or caste); not in terms of races and tribes." (Foundations of Indian Culture; p. 8.)
Here's an example of how the ancient Indians identified people: The leaders were called Khassis (Kassites), Kushi (Ku****es), Cossacks (Russian military caste) Caesars (Roman ruling caste), Hattiya (Hittites), Cuthites (a dialectical form of Hittite), Hurrite (another dialectical form of Hittite), Cathay (Chinese leaders), Kasheetl/Kashikeh among the Aztecs, Kashikhel/Kisheh by the Mayans, and Keshuah/Kush by the Incas. The Assyrians (in English), Asirios (in Spanish), Asuras or Ashuras (India), Ashuriya, Asuriya (Sumer and Babylonia), Asir (Arabia), Ahura (Persia), Suré in Central Mexico, etc., were people who worshipped Surya (the Sun).
Naturally, in areas where this religion prevailed, they were known as "Assyrians," no matter what the real names of their respective kingdoms were.

Another problem that western scholars have in identifying the Indo-Europeans as Indians is that India was not then and never was a nation. Furthermore, it is not "India." It is Bharata, and even Bharata is not a nation. Bharata is a collection of nations, just as Europe is a collection of nations, presently held together by the real or perceived threat of Moslem expansionism. Indian scholars have told me that when and if this expansionism ever disappears, the "Bharata Union" will again splinter into many smaller nations.

"The Arabian historians contend that Brahma and Abraham, their ancestor, are the same person. The Persians generally called Abraham Ibrahim Zeradust. Cyrus considered the religion of the Jews the same as his own. The Hindoos must have come from Abraham, or the Israelites from Brahma..." (Anacalypsis; Vol. I, p. 396.)
--Gene D. Matlock, B.A, M.A.

This information about the Sarasvati river and Sarasvati the Goddess comes from Wikipedia;

Saraswati, goddess of knowledge
Consort: Brahma
Mount: swan, peacock
--In Hinduism, Saraswati (Sanskrit sarasvati) is one of the goddesses, the other two being Lakshmi and Durga, that form the female counterpart of the Trimurti. Saraswati has been regarded as a river goddess and in recent times a goddess of knowledge, music and the arts. She is the consort of Brahma, the Hindu god of creation.

Saraswati as a river
--The Rigvedic hymns dedicated to Saraswati mention her as a mighty river with creative, purifying, and nourishing properties. The best theory regarding the Vedic Sarasvati River states that it was formed by the present headwaters of the Yamuna River. In ancient times, after they had left the Himalayan foothills, the waters of the Yamuna turned west instead of east at Paonta Saheb. Next, the river flowed southwest across the Punjab and Haryana regions along the course of the modern Ghaggar-Hakra River in a pathway roughly parallel to the smaller Indus River to its west. The Sutlej flowed further east than it does today, and joined the Sarasvati somewhere near Bahawalpur. Eventually, the wide river emptied into the Rann of Kutch, which at the time was a more integral part of the Arabian Sea.

Along the course of the Sarasvati, the Harappan Civilization developed. The earliest known examples of writing in India have been found in the ruined cities that line the now dry riverbed of the ancient waterway. Some have postulated that the goddess Saraswati gained her role as personified communication and the giver of knowledge due to the role of the Sarasvati River in the development of written language in ancient India.

Between 2000 B.C. and 1700 B.C., seismic activity caused the waters of the river's two main sources to change course. The Sutlej moved course westward and became a tributary of the Indus River. The Yamuna moved course eastward and became a tributary of the Ganges. The tremendous loss of water which resulted from these movements caused the once mighty river to become sluggish and dry up in the Thar Desert without ever reaching the sea. Without any water for irrigation or transportation, the dense population of the river basin soon shifted east with the waters of the Yamuna to the Ganges River valley. Late Vedic texts record the river as disappearing at Vinasana (literally, "the disappearing"), and as joining both the Yamuna and Ganges as an invisible river. Some claim that the sanctity of the modern Ganges is directly related to its assumption of the holy, life-giving waters of the ancient Sarasvati.
 

Wavy_Wonder1

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Evidence/documentation part 2

I'm sorry sonoman, but a few obscure, sporadic, and overall late references to an Indian origin of the Jewish people (against the consensus of scholarship) does not explain in any detail whatsoever how the Jews borrowed the Sabbath Hindu religion, nor does it address the evidence found in my post.

Thanks,
Eric
 

sonoman

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You must not read mystery novels then. Mysteries are solved when the weight of evidence builds up past "reasonable doubt". When the "coincidences" between the stories and the basic ideologies of Brahmins and Jews is put side by side personally I think one would have to be virtually blind to not see a startling match-up. But that's me.

I've followed the Brahmin movement out of India into Iran, one can see a religious war happening between Iranian sun worshiping Brahmins and Hindu Brahmins moon worship with Hindu Vedics served by Devas and Iranian Brahmins served by Syra, Syrius. Devas became "devils" to Iranians and Asuras were devils to Hindus. I have traced Syra, Syrius, to Assyria, Syria, Asir, Osir, Osiris, the Father of the Pharaohs --Egypt.
 

wil

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a figment of your imagination
and what about the consensus of tradition, then? does that get a vote here? or is anything not supported by "the scholars" simply ruled out of court?

b'shalom

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Namaste BB,

I have the same discussion with Thomas in Christianity and frankly I can't see how tradition gets a vote.

I'll just go to the most drastic. If tradition ruled, then here in the US we'd be hanging folks without a trial. And beating our wives and raping our slave girls without reprecussion.
 

seattlegal

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and what about the consensus of tradition, then? does that get a vote here? or is anything not supported by "the scholars" simply ruled out of court?

b'shalom

bananabrain
Actually, BB, doesn't Genesis 25 write about Abraham sending all his sons from his late-life wife Keturah away to 'the country of the east?' Isn't one of the companions of Job (the oriental) a descendent of Abraham through Keturah?
Genesis 25:1-12
1 Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah, 2 and she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah. 3 Jokshan fathered Sheba and Dedan. Dedan's sons were the Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim. 4 And Midian's sons were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah. All these were sons of Keturah. 5 Abraham gave everything he owned to Isaac. 6 And Abraham gave gifts to the sons of his concubines, but while he was still alive he sent them eastward, away from his son Isaac, to the land of the East.


Job 2:11
11 Now when Job's three friends—Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite—heard about all this adversity that had happened to him, each of them came from his home. They met together to go and offer sympathy and comfort to him.

Job 1:1-3
1 There was a man in the country of Uz named Job. He was a man of perfect integrity, who feared God and turned away from evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters. 3 His estate included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and a very large number of servants. Job was the greatest man among all the people of the east.
 

bananabrain

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I'll just go to the most drastic. If tradition ruled, then here in the US we'd be hanging folks without a trial. And beating our wives and raping our slave girls without reprecussion.
that's not what i'm saying. the tradition itself has an excellent track record of addressing and successfully reconciling precisely this kind of halakhic issue, which deals with rights and wrongs. more speculative aggadic interpretation is left to the individual to decide from the multiplicity of options available. however, there are certain things that the tradition would *not* say, for example:

"hinduism was invented by the jews" (although there is a kabbalistic tradition that the esoteric eastern stuff comes from abraham via the sons of keturah, as SG correctly notes)

or indeed

"judaism was invented in india"
"judaism was invented in egypt"
"judaism was invented in babylon"

i know all of these theories have their "scholarly" adherents - but the tradition would consider them risible. remember, they are based on the assumption (conveniently untestable) that the traditional explanation, which involves Revelation, G!D and so on, isn't worth considering. interestingly enough, one of the traditional aggadic positions on the book of job says "there was no such person as job in real life, it's an allegory". for obvious reasons, no traditional aggadic position says that about the events of the Torah.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 

Wavy_Wonder1

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Mystery novels and what you've 'followed'

You must not read mystery novels then. Mysteries are solved when the weight of evidence builds up past "reasonable doubt". When the "coincidences" between the stories and the basic ideologies of Brahmins and Jews is put side by side personally I think one would have to be virtually blind to not see a startling match-up. But that's me.

I've followed the Brahmin movement out of India into Iran, one can see a religious war happening between Iranian sun worshiping Brahmins and Hindu Brahmins moon worship with Hindu Vedics served by Devas and Iranian Brahmins served by Syra, Syrius. Devas became "devils" to Iranians and Asuras were devils to Hindus. I have traced Syra, Syrius, to Assyria, Syria, Asir, Osir, Osiris, the Father of the Pharaohs --Egypt.

Mystery novels and what you've 'followed' don't constitute an argument.

Thanks,
Eric
 

sonoman

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Neither do sound-bite "answers".

I've shown a direct linkage between India Brahminism and Egypt via Iranian Brahmin worship of surya, the root word for assyria, syria, asir, osir, osirius, who Egyptians claim as founder of Egyptian pharaoh linage. If Judaism traces linkage to Egypt then it is coming to Egypt from an original base in northern India.
 

Joedjr

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Hi,
I've read the parts about the calender in the bible, and find them and this thread very interesting. Thinking about it and reading here you can't help but think this is something of history. I don't want to sound complaining, maybe this should be in "Ancient lore and Mythology".
Didn't the biblical calender change to help Israel "mesh" with neighbors at some time (which I have no idea)?
Anyway sorry for the interruption, I hope to read more here!
thanks
.02
Joe
 

Dream

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I read all of the posts and found everything very interesting. I really don't know what to think, however I will contribute a book title I ran across once called The Emergence of Hinduism from Christianity which claims that Hinduism is an outgrowth of Thomas Christianity under the influence of Syrian Gnosticism. Like I said, I really don't know what to think about all of this, however I thought I'd mention the title. Its written by someone named M.M. Ninan.
 
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This thread was made by the moderator 'brucegdc', carried over from the Judaism forum in a thread about the Sabbath. My post was originally made there to answer a request to supply evidence that the Sabbath, in antiquity, did not fall at the end of an uninterrupted septenary cycle. 'Saturday' was not always originally the Sabbath day.

Thanks,
E.L.B.

Ah, I see. Exiled to the B&S zone. Well, I can't say that I have any problem with your lunar Sabbath hypothesis. It makes quite a bit of sense, actually. Are you a sabbatarian, or what is your interest precisely? I'm an ex-SDA.

Chris
 

Wavy_Wonder1

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Ah, I see. Exiled to the B&S zone. Well, I can't say that I have any problem with your lunar Sabbath hypothesis. It makes quite a bit of sense, actually. Are you a sabbatarian, or what is your interest precisely? I'm an ex-SDA.

Chris

I am a mainline Christian went Messianic went liberal Christian went deist went agnostic went atheist.

So I guess you could call me an atheist.:D

However, in my later Messianic days I kept a lunar Sabbath.

Thanks,
Eric
 

seattlegal

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Here are some earlier historical references:

--"In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)
Hi, sonoman. I checked this reference, and here is what I found:

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 22 (in its entirety)
CHAPTER 22.
How Isaac Died, And Was Buried In Hebron.
From thence Jacob came to Hebron, a city situate among the Canaanites;
and there it was that Isaac lived: and so they lived together for a little while;
for as to Rebeka, Jacob did not find her alive. Isaac also died not long after
the coming of his son; and was buried by his sons, with his wife, in Hebron,
where they had a monument belonging to them from their forefathers. Now
Isaac was a man who was beloved of God, and was vouchsafed great
instances of providence by God, after Abraham his father, and lived to be
exceeding old; for when he had lived virtuously one hundred and
eighty−five years, he then died.​
I did a search for the word "Calani" in all of Flavius Josephus's works on Project Gutenberg, and the word 'Calani' did not appear in any of them.

Did you find this reference to "Calani" in the writings of Josephus yourself, or are you passing on something someone else referenced? :confused:
 
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