Sick of the bailouts.
- Thread starter Dogbrain
- Start date
Pathless
Fiercely Interdependent
Here are my thoughts on the economic meltdown.
What you don't like FeRNs? (federal reserve notes)
Yes, not backed by gold, heck when I was a kid it was illegal to own gold, because it was worth so much more than our pretend money!
Gold standard, gone, silver standard gone. Our forefathers argued and put into our constitution the federal gov't could only COIN money out of gold or silver, they knew anyone whoever printed money or taxed the people directly would have worthless currency and a govt that grew out of control....last laugh is on us because we let them avoid the constitution and we have both.
Better than that I was in a govt building and they wouldn't take FeRNs, would not take cash, would not take pretend money only credit or debit cards!!
Hmmmm, I still have five and ten silver notes...still legal tender and worth more than their face value...
Oh, and so is the common penny (solid copper ones). Our simplest coin is worth 1/3rd more than its face value...save your pennies...
Your dollar in pennies is worth $1.30 amazing isn't it?
and a nickel is worth 9.8 cents. But they passed a law making it illegal to take them out of the country or melt them down.
The most interesting notes were the first Treasury notes, after silver certificates and before FRNs, they said on them. "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private and may be exchanged for real money at any federal reserve bank" This is a blatant indication they are not 'real money'!!
The ones in our pocket only say "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private" also not real money.
note the Federal Reserve is niether Federal nor does it have enough Reserve to cover the money out there... it is made up of member banks, some of them international banks ie foriegn banks. Creature from Jekyll Island is a good book, it tells you exactly when we became an oligarchy.
bob x
Well-Known Member
False: the constitution forbids the STATES from issuing money, except that they are allowed to coin gold and silver. Before 1789, the 13 colonies all had their own currencies, with fluctuating exchange rates. After that the federal government issued the only currency; until the California gold rush, most money was paper, because the country just didn't have much in the way of precious metals.
And...there could not be a United States, with multiple currencies, particularly when one state could effectively "null" another state's currency for any reason, among other laws that had to be standard across the board...
Section 8 indicates the fed can only COIN money, Section 9 says the states cannot use anything but gold or silver as their currency (keeping either from establishing a fake paper system) All printed currency is against the constitution. Madison's Notes detail the arguments where many were ready to refuse the whole document until they took out the or print, between COIN and money, pretty hard to coin paper, but we do it.
The trouble is, the financial system is concentrated into these companies, so when they go, the financial system collapses, and this hits everybody in ordinary life.
The fallout from Lehman's collapse was immense, and threatened to revert the credit crunch back to square one, which is such a serious issue - without liquidity in the markets, those home loans will remain at elevated rates, accelerating foreclosures, and then feeding back as a loop.
Actually, the Constitution forbids the states from coining money at all (Article 1, Section 10).
Pathless
Fiercely Interdependent
An option to at least raise our voices in protest of the proposal that we all go into personal debt to bailout irresponsible investors:
Stop Paulson's Plunder | Democrats.com
Stop Paulson's Plunder | Democrats.com
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Hmm, if the government is going to bail out the banks, instead of just giving the banks the cash, why not give each taxpayer an account at the banks being bailed out with a specific amount of money (I get a nasty headache just trying to do the math for per-taxpayer amount,) that belongs to the taxpayer, but cannot be accessed for five years. That way, the banks get their liquidity needed right now to get back on their feet, and the taxpayers get paid back in five years for bailing them out....
Now you know the answer to that. When we got our stimulus checks (interesting name) we spent them mostly on porn. We can't be trusted with our money, we spend it and then want more...and want to be bailed out again...
I'll help out here. It equates to $10,000.00 per house hold in the US (if spread evenly). And that is on top of any other taxes one would normally pay.
I thought the underlying point of the US economy was that the high standard of living was paid for entirely by debt?
Got admit, I think the media coverage of this as a "bail out" makes it looks like the US tax payer is being asked to "rescue" irresponsible banks - but it's more fundamental than that - the entire US financial system is in danger of collapse.
It happened before during the Great Depression of the 1930's - banks were allowed to fail in a long run, destroying the very fabric of the US financial system - and unless something like the "bail out" happens, history is going to repeat itself.
Think of it this way - when people want to borrow money for a loan or a mortgage, or even just get a credit card or bank account, their credit-worthiness is checked to see if they are regarded as an acceptable risk. People who are seen as an unacceptable risk are not leant to.
Trouble is, in the current banking system, every single bank and company is now seen as an unacceptable risk - no one will lend - because no one knows the extent of everybody's exposure to bad mortgage debt assets.
When banks won't lend to each other, they won't lend to Joe Public either.
Current US interest rates are at around 2%, but mortgage repayment rates are around 6-7%. Unless there's a bail out, even these rates will seem cheap. Property prices will crash further, ordinary homes losing much of their value, no reasonable mortgages or mortgages available, no lending facilities such as loans or credit cards excepting at the most punitive rates - and the American public impoverished by a lack of access to credit, accelerated unemployment, rising prices - and a general inability to pay for the current standard of living.
Seriously, you folks in the US are looking at the end of the US economy as we know it - all debt and no way to pay for it - unless Paulson is able to act.
And a collapse of the US economy drags the rest of the world into it.
The US economy is haemorrhaging, but medical care costs. Unless that cost is covered, the damage gets worse and worse.
Just my 2c.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
That's how I understand it too I, Brian. Time to pay the piper. 
Exactly--time to pay the piper NOW instead of piling on yet another stop-gap government "rescue" that will only end up contributing to an even larger collapse later.
Pathless
Fiercely Interdependent
Who is the piper that we are paying? Who is owed what? Is it a nebulous, unconnected group of megacorporations? Is it a government or governments supposedly propped up by taxpayers' money, but in reality so far in debt that the numbers have become incomprehensible? Or is it maybe the poor people of the world who are constantly working to survive in this climate by providing elites and privileged people with the necessities of life as well as the luxuries?
Any bailout right now that perpetuates this climate of unregulated, speculative financial markets, is ludicrous. Time to pay the piper, indeed. Yet a bailout which props up those institutions and people who profit from those unregulated, speculative financial markets is simply further rewarding those few who abuse the rest and are rewarded for it. The reality of what is happening is that the abstraction of financial markets has raced so far ahead of itself that it has bitten its own ass. Since that is the case, any attempt to keep the financial markets going along their staid trajectory--such as the kinds of bailouts that Paulson, Bernanke, and associates are promoting--is absurd. And a bailout that will hold those irresponsible people accountable for their actions is also simply mitigation for the long-term damages that are just now manifesting. Such accountability and mitigation will not rescue the markets, because those markets are not rooted in reality.
Here we have an opportunity to take irresponsible financiers to task, but it is painful and frightening to most people because it means subverting the status quo and the financial institutions that we have become accustomed to and dependent on.
Ultimately, I think that this economic collapse is one part of a greater and inevitable systems shift. Creativity and a reconceptualization of priorities in our daily lives are necessary to respond in a productive way. Any band-aid or surgery applied to the financial hemorraging that does not address the core roots of the illness will only delay the inevitable decay. Treat the problems, not the symptoms.
Any bailout right now that perpetuates this climate of unregulated, speculative financial markets, is ludicrous. Time to pay the piper, indeed. Yet a bailout which props up those institutions and people who profit from those unregulated, speculative financial markets is simply further rewarding those few who abuse the rest and are rewarded for it. The reality of what is happening is that the abstraction of financial markets has raced so far ahead of itself that it has bitten its own ass. Since that is the case, any attempt to keep the financial markets going along their staid trajectory--such as the kinds of bailouts that Paulson, Bernanke, and associates are promoting--is absurd. And a bailout that will hold those irresponsible people accountable for their actions is also simply mitigation for the long-term damages that are just now manifesting. Such accountability and mitigation will not rescue the markets, because those markets are not rooted in reality.
Here we have an opportunity to take irresponsible financiers to task, but it is painful and frightening to most people because it means subverting the status quo and the financial institutions that we have become accustomed to and dependent on.
Ultimately, I think that this economic collapse is one part of a greater and inevitable systems shift. Creativity and a reconceptualization of priorities in our daily lives are necessary to respond in a productive way. Any band-aid or surgery applied to the financial hemorraging that does not address the core roots of the illness will only delay the inevitable decay. Treat the problems, not the symptoms.
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