Discussion in 'Baha'i' started by iBrian, Apr 15, 2004.
Hi Bruce, the "battling" I was referring to was meant to be "mental confrontation". See #17.
Art, within your words lies the rationality & logic that will eventually prevail, but not in our lifetime.
Spirituality shoud be the basis of all religions rather than their own interpretations of their particular messenger.
It is true that one cannot come to God by intellectual effort
I have read Kawohl's experience with great interest as I too am one who has had encounters with God, the first one being my original religious conversion experience which concluded three days of experiencing continuous synchronicity events, one right after the other. This happened at Easter of 1979 and converted me from near atheism to an unshakable belief in the reality of the spiritual world underlying our world of the senses. Since that experience I have periodically had visions, revelations, and God-guided religious research that over the past 25 years have produced a new modern form of Gnostic Christianity, one that follows a Solitary Path because only the Solitary Paths are capable of retrieving believers in God from the abuses of organized religions which have perverted God's calling again and again, making God into tribal war deities of one self-chosen group or another, each claiming knowledge of God for itself alone.
God does choose prophets however, those people called upon to carry on the updating of spiritual evolutionary guidelines necessary for becoming truly humane beings as this is the only way God has "hands" and "eyes" in the world which others can see whether or not God is actually Present in our world and is backing or not backing the particular hands and eyes at any given historical moment.
This being the case, a religious challenge is automatically set in motion whenever a new prophet appears with a new vision. Do people automatically accept new religious visions? No. The established ones cloud everyone's minds with ancient visions never allowed updating because the new prophet with the power to do so never appeared, except, of course Mohammad for the Abrahamic religions with a few other lesser contenders like Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy. With thousands of people experiencing religious visions, many bundled away in mental institutions, how is one to judge new religious visions for authenticity from God?
For myself, because I am one of those people who do get the religious visions, I can only judge by the way I judge all of God's imput into my personal life--I judge by Signs given, i.e., synchronicity events that spiritually reinforce my belief in the truth of the visions. If the visions are true then they will have outward effect on others besides myself--they will be "seen" by others besides myself. For me, this has happened and is happening now which is one of the reasons I am here on these discussion boards. Not only to proclaim the New Gnosis as it were but also to enter into religious dialogue with people who can talk about spiritual experiences and religious doctrines from a broader educational background or so I hope at this point not knowing for sure what to expect on these boards.
Anyway, without further beating around the Burning Bush, I am a prophesy bearer for a very radical gnostic Christian religion with one practitioner but who claims prophesy bearer for the whole Abrahamic religious tradition. I am currently involved in a religious challenge to the Muslim steward of the Dome of the Rock following a long vision quest that began 15 years ago, involved the creation of a truly "magic" sword of peace, and an experience at Easter of last year in Nazareth, Israel that confirmed something truly remarkable was going on here, perhaps God really has stepped into the works again producing prophets with actual spiritual power. Time and history will tell. But in the meantime, you poor people are stuck with a person who is convinced God is working through him and he's not in any funny farm. At least not yet..
Please go to http://www.biomystic.org which takes you to my homepage, New Gnosis. Listed there are two Books. Please go to Book I, Biomystical Christianity, note the radical Johnine Gnostic Christian index of subjects, scroll down to the Story of Paxcalibur and go to those pages to read a true story that is happening now as this particular Vision just will not seem to stop. It is linked to the Canaan Peace Plan, and the Paxcalibur Peace Challenge which is being arranged now between Shaykh Mohammed the Muslim steward of the Dome of the Rock and myself as God has handily arranged our meeting here in California next month. Also linked is another vision that is unfolding in tandem with the Pax Story. This is the Vision of Christ Josephine that is uniting my anachronistic counterculture community here in redwood country of northern California with the Lakota Sioux people. Very interesting stuff for those willing to see how God is uniting Old and New World spirituality.
"But in the meantime, you poor people are stuck with a person who is convinced God is working through him and he's not in any funny farm. At least not yet.."
For a spiritually advanced being does this convey some condescension?
Just curious to know who you were referring to?
I have no problem with people exploring spirituality and finding truth for themselves but it seems at times we can lose a sense of persepective and suggest that our experience must be so much more enlightening and complete than that of other "poor people".
Hi arielmessenger and welcome to CR.
As for the comment - I read that as condescending at first, then realised that it was self-depreciation.
As for being a prophet - IMO, such titles are best earned, never claimed. But perhaps that my English sense of modesty.
Thank you for the welcome and re-reading of my post that informed you if not others that I do have some sense of proportion about my claims of prophesy bearer...some sense if not sensibleness..
You see, I have no choice but to issue the claim as to claim I wasn't a prophet would be to lie. I have been given prophetic visions and revelations to share with the world that sorely needs them. Because I follow a Solitary Path no one is compelled to believe me, no one will be excommunicated from my church which I carry around on my shoulders, no one will be condemned to hell if they don't believe. Yet what I have to relay from God is very important spiritual information, especially the Biomystical interpretation of Yeshu-Jesus' sacrificial death. That alone makes Biomystical Christianity unique in the Christian sects as well as giving Christianity the means to withstand rational criticisms about its Pauline Mystery Religion belief system which requires suspension of critical thinking in order to be accepted. But the proof is in the pudding and history will judge the likes of me and my spiritual gifts or mental delusions.
Hi Ariel, I do believe that your spirit has had intense spiritual experiences as mine has. There will always be future messengers of God as long as mankind exists. I was wondering if your mind has eliminated ALL religious conditioning and superstitions in order to clearly receive the so-called unadulterated truth.
IMHO, I have a problem agreeing with the words visions, revelations, prophesies. I do know that spiritual interaction by our spirit is a possibility.
I do not believe in visions unless they conform to the laws of nature. Visions are seeing with the eye. Spiritual visions are what the spirit envisions, which is a possibility.
Physical revelations of anything spiritual is impossible.
A prophet is one who predicts the future, seer; forecaster, fortuneteller. Predictions are correct by chance or via an educated guess. Messengers of God, in the past, were called prophets. They should correctly be called messengers.
The Baha'i Faith (not "Baha'ism- as the 'i already means roughly "ist") offers a view of the Messengers of God which unifies the great Revelators of the past.
The Revelator behind the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, announced unequivocally that these Holy Ones are in a very real sense all the "returns" of the same "Spirit" or "divine station." Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad and many others throughout history all have advanced Their allotted chapter in the book of God's guidance. Each "Manifestation of God" is endowed with the fullness of Divine power and innate knowledge; all the Divine attributes are perfectly expressed in Them. We believe these "returns" are ordained and animated by God His progressive plan of providing guidance to mankind. Each Manifestation inaugurates a major cycle of human civilization and history, and, Baha'u'llah has stated, They appear only once every 500-1000 years or so. It takes multiple generations for mankind to respond to a new revelation and encompass its teachings, for it to reach its full fruit - there then follows a decline in its power as the changes, languages, reinterpretations, etc. inevitably dissipate the initial purity and power of the teachings.
To get a sense of the unique greatness and power of this station, I invite you to read what Baha'u'llah has written on the subject:
The generality of mankind also may receive glimpses and spiritual insights, and can also play a role in helping to carry forward the purposes of God. Among these are many of great power and impact, like Isaiah in the OT. Baha'is distinguish between lesser "prophets" and "seers" based on the evidence that their teachings and powers are partial and sporadic -- "happening to them," rather than commanded at will, and generally purpose to purify and call back to the teachings of a former Manifestation.
Thus the Baha'i revelation does not "compete" or "war ideationally" with the revelations of the past, but rather encompasses their spiritual teachings, expands the depths of those teachings, extends our reach, and also provides a body of social teachings and laws uniquely fitted to the needs of an age speedily building a global, united human community.
Individuals will also find Baha'u'llah's revelation an incomparable source of spiritual awakening and transformation.
I invite you to investigated it if you wish - or, if you prefer (as you may) - see if you can create a "better" revelation on your own!
Why this teeeeeny print? Did you want us to miss it?
As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.
IMHO, Bahaism could be the uniting force between religions if they would be open to a more modern concept of who/what God is. God is spiritual and will not interfere in the affairs of mankind. This is God's new message. Can mankind accept this? Eventually man will also understand that God NEVER has interfered with anything in this physical universe. Then rationality & logic can prevail in religions.
[ADMIN EDIT: link removed]
Well - before you can prescribe for us "a more modern concept of who/what God is" - methinks it might be useful to start by understanding what the Baha'i concept is/is not. Don't you think? You'll find many of His writings at the site given in my previous post. Or for a general overview of what the Baha'i community is actually doing to help bring about unity, I recommend baha'i.org
It's quite possible we don't believe in the same "God" you don't believe in.
As for God not interfering. Oh, but He does! Just giving a "new message" is an intervention, wouldn't you agree?
You would be surprised at how common the experience is. I've been through it myself and I know others on this forum have, too. In fact, I'd love to see bob x post up some of his experiences of travelling the Middle East in the 1970s.
But claiming titles for the self IMO is a meaningless act. It is our actions in the span of our lives that define us, and it is on that basis that titles are awarded, rather than claimed.
There is only one God but many concepts and interpretations thereof. God providing a new message is God's option, unrestrained by any specific time period. This is providing guidance through his messenger; it is up the recipient to accept or reject this message. Guiding mankind's development like a Master Planner is not the same as intervening, interferring or meddling in the affairs of mankind.
You stated, "Thus the Baha'i revelation does not "compete" or "war intentionally" with the revelations of the past, but rather encompasses their spiritual teachings, expands the depths of those teachings, extends our reach, and also provides a body of social teachings and laws uniquely fitted to the needs of an age speedily building a global, united human community".
I agree. So also a new message from God will vary from the past, but it does not compete with or void the revelations of the past, but rather encompasses their spiritual teachings, expands the depths of those teachings, extends our reach, and also provides a body of social teachings and laws uniquely "fitted to the needs of a new age" speedily building a global, united human community.
"... a new message from God will vary from the past, but it does not compete with or void the revelations of the past, but rather encompasses their spiritual teachings, expands the depths of those teachings, extends our reach, and also provides a body of social teachings and laws uniquely "fitted to the needs of a new age" speedily building a global, united human community."
Regarding voiding or abrogating past ordinances:
I think the Baha'i view is that each Revelation from God is spiritually the same but varies as to meeting the requirements of the age in which it is revealed... So some laws are actually abrogated or deleted as we know from the Baha'i revelation where Jihad has been abrogated. There are other examples where various ordinances in religions have been changed and these reflect the needs of humanity and set the stage for the establishment of a new covenant with humanity.
Specific time periods are significant:
Each revelation also has fulfilled the prophesies of the previous ones, so in our view the specific time period given by Baha'u'llah as a thousand years before the next Manifestation of God appears is accepted by us. The Bab also provided prophetic clues when He prophesied regarding Him Whom God would make manifest and in our view the Bab Himself fulfilled prophesies by outlined by Shaykh Ahmad.
As Baha'is we recognized what was revealed in our Writings.
And it's interesting to note, that in the case of the Bab, He indicated that "He Who Arises" should be sought in 9, and 19 years. Baha'u'llah fulfilled both "dates," receiving His mission 9 years later and publicly announcing it and inauguerating His faith 19 years later.
So there is no fixed period, but each Manifestation provides some hint of how long it will be until the next appearance, sometimes very abstrusely, sometimes very exactly.
Seers and lesser prophets can arise at any time; but a Manifestation "destroys the world and calls into being a new creation" - He "releases an outpouring" of creative power, setting into motion historical forces that transform the human world.
You should understand that a person in my position has no choice in the matter. If I say "No, I am not a prophet" I am lying because everything about my religious life revolves around my role of messenger of a new vision, actually several new visions that still are in the same spiritual lineage as my Canaanite-Hebrew forebearers. There is no one else to tell the world about the Biomystical interpretation of Yeshu-Jesus' sacrificial death. There is no one else to play the role of Elijah-John the Baptist announcing the return of the Spirit of Christ in Feminine form. There is no one else who is actively continuing the Johanine Gnostic exposure of Yahweh as a usurper god who never was God Most High. There is no one else who has been given the spiritual information that will lift Christianity out of the End Times fate that awaits almost all other traditional religious paths that do not lead to recognition and worship of the Holy One of Heaven & Earth.
You see, once the historical information is universally known among intellectuals the religious traditions such as Ba' hai even will lose tremendous spiritual authority because the founders of these traditional religions used mythologies as if they were actual historical events to base their teachings on, e.g., Paul using the myths of Israelite priests and scribes to base the authenticity of Yeshu-Jesus, Mohammad using the myths of Israelites and Pauline Christians to base the authenticity of his teachings, and Ba'hai too following suit with foundational doctrines that use Judeo-Christian-Muslim mythologies as spiritual authority. All this crashes with historical evidence showing these ancient myths to be that, myths. If they are recognized as myths then it is a different story but without that recognition the teachings of these Abrahamic faiths are going to conflict with historical reality as well as spiritual authority, e.g., Ba' hai being a religion of combined universal love and goodwill yet still under the Master syndrome that creates followers as spiritual children instead of individuals unique in themselves with their own unique relationships with the God of All. This too, is one of the reasons God has put me on point--to point to the Solitary Path that alone transcends the historical authoritarianism that seems to always accompany organized mass religions, an authoritarianism that slips far too easily into totalitarianism when coupled with political power.
IMHO, prophecy, physical revelations & visions, & God performing magic on earth are the results of superstitions & these beliefs have mostly been or should be eliminated in our modern societies. God is spirit & only interacts with our spirit.
IMHO, like myself, you should consider yourself a humble messenger. Messengers should not be elevated, or deified as Jesus was by many Christians.
IMHO, people still have a tendency to want to see magical performances or prophecies from God when this actually is the mind's interpretation of the spirit's spiritual inteteraction with God. The mind's translation thereof is often inaccurate due to its clinging to subconscious superstitions or prior conditioning. God is not restricted be any time period for a spiritual interaction with man. It is at God's choosing.
How does anyone know God is present in the world without signs of that Presence?
Kurt, one of the reasons there aren't that many prophets running around at any given time is that anyone who entered the kind of mental state I did when I went through my three day religious conversion experience, comes away with Knowledge that this world is illusion, that it has been scripted from from the beginning and that each of our lives lives out Archetypal dramas that are given to us for our souls to learn moral lessons in preparation for the World Beyond. This experience of "reality" being illusionary makes no sense to anyone who hasn't experienced it yet the concept of the world as maya appears again and again in differing cultures. Even the Judeo-Christian tradition carries the idea:
"Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them."
Illusion is the case yet reality is nonetheless very "real" in its temporal consequences on our lives and so, God works within the illusion of Creation manifesting the spiritual truths through singular men and women who God has brought into the Light. If all were brought into the Light the Light could not be seen for what it is-it would just be light illuminating darkness only when it's turned on. Who throws the switch for the Light? Visionaries, seers, prophets.
But I do agree with you, gone should be the days when visionaries, seers, prophets are idolized. They are messengers only and the Messages are the important thing. Myself, I make sure that my foibles as a human being are displayed in the large print of my gospel. We don't judge a recording by the quality of the tape recorder do we? Bliss and spiritual comfort are not what I am about as no one with an ounce of true spiritual consciousness who reads a daily newspaper cannot retreat into any nirvanic state while so many are so very desperate to just survive calamity.
My feeling is that God is not restricted, but to fulfill His previous Revelations He has left signs and prophecies that are to be spiritually understood... It takes a great deal of humility and a seeking heart to understand these. These signs and prophecies are provided to us so we can appreciate the consistency and fulfillment of previous religions both ancient and more modern.
Abdul-Baha in a Tablet dated January 1920 wrote:
"Sixty years ago Baha'u'llah, even as the shining sun, shone in the firmament of Persia, and proclaimed that the world is wrapt in darkness and this darkness is fraught with disastrous results, and will lead to fearful strife. In
His prison city of Akka, He apostrophized in unmistakable terms the Emperor of Germany, declaring that a terrible war shall take place, and Berlin will break forth in lamentation and wailing. In like manner, whilst the wronged prisoner of the Sultan of Turkey in the citadel of Akka, He clearly and emphatically wrote him that Constantinople will fall a prey to grave disorder, in such wise that the women and children will raise their moaning cry. In brief, He addressed epistles to all the chief rulers and sovereigns of the world, and all that He foretold has been fulfilled. From His pen of glory flowed teachings for the prevention of war, and these have been scattered far and wide. "
Some may not appreciate that the Baha'i Faith also has as it's basis in the Writings a prophetic view of history and the future but in this regard it is not unlike previous dispensations.
Ah, but then you are talking about condemning a pivotal part of the human experience - because you disagree with it??
And if God is spirit and only interacts with our spirit, then what is the result? When god interacts with us is there truly no prophecy, revelation, or vision?
In which case in what manner do you say we perceive God? Only in synchronicity and intuition?
"You see, once the historical information is universally known among intellectuals the religious traditions such as Ba' hai even will lose tremendous spiritual authority because the founders of these traditional religions used mythologies as if they were actual historical events to base their teachings on, e.g., Paul using the myths of Israelite priests and scribes to base the authenticity of Yeshu-Jesus, Mohammad using the myths of Israelites and Pauline Christians to base the authenticity of his teachings, and Ba'hai too following suit with foundational doctrines that use Judeo-Christian-Muslim mythologies as spiritual authority. All this crashes with historical evidence showing these ancient myths to be that, myths."
The Baha'i Writings do frequently use Biblical and Qur'anic references and I invite to explore them in an essay by Brent Poirier at
In time Ariel, it may be that you'll come to appreciate how Baha'is view the prophcies of past dispensation by reading the Baha'i Writings for yourself... Rather than losing "great spiritual authority" there is a great spiritual authenticity and relevance to be found therein.
Separate names with a comma.