atheists refuted

[juantoo3]

It's good to see you back, Vajradhara!

And in as good of form as always!

 

[c0de]

Namaste Code,

thank you for the post.

(sigh)

... just when I think i'm out.. they pull me back in!!!! lol

may i ask why it is that you think professor is correct about this assertion? i have several books on my book shelf that talk about gravity and quantum theories of gravity and all of that sort of thing, they all seem to agree on what gravity is and how we human sorts experience it. they do, however, disagree on the why's of the question.

(Well first of all, technically I should have said professors.
As I had one course last semester and now this one.)

The reason why they disagree on the "why" is because
they do not have any testable explanation for it. Its that simple.
Things of this sort confounded the likes of Newton and Einstein,
so when people make the claim that they "understand" or can
"explain" gravity, it would make any real physicist laugh a little.

The fact is dude, gravity is a totally unexplained phenomenon.
This concept of what "force" actually is, is a complete mystery.
Like you said yourself, the only thing we know is the how, but
the real question is the "why?"

oh? i wonder how it is that there are string theorists then? perhaps you are indicating the lack of intersubjective evidence regarding strings or the variations of string theory itself?

No dude, I mean literally, string theory is not technically a science yet.
In order for anything to be a science, it has to pass the test of the
scientific method i.e. your hypothesis has to be testable. Right now,
the claims made by multi-verse and string theory are not testable.
Maybe in the future when we can test them, it will be proven or disproved.
This is why people are so exited about projects like the LHC, because
its aim is to shed light on these issues which will work towards proving
or disproving the claims of theories like this. All new theories go through
this same stage. It is a progression from non-science, to science.

that is a refreshing attitude usually attacks on atheists get the monotheists together like nothing else.

I honestly feel uncomfortable when I am on the offensive, and
when I am uncomfortable I am off-balance and my energies are out
of focus... i think its cuz deep down I know I am just being a douchebag (lol)...

 

[Tao_Equus]

What is "gravity"?

What is "force"???

Where does "gravity" come from?

What causes it?

Giving a name to such phenomenon does
not mean that you have explained them.

Hello Code,

I do not have to explain them to be content that we do understand that it is an effect related to mass and that in that sense it is highly predictable. But it is noted that no religion claims to say what exactly gravity is though I expect when science eventually does know exactly what it is then the bad book writers will dig into their respective holy books and say "we knew that all along"!!

 

[Postmaster]

No more like they will say wow our prophet said this a very long time ago and today it has been realised. They wouldn't exactly say we knew it all along. A prophets job is also to foresee the future, you can't expect them to be entirely accurate they are guiding.

 

[c0de]

@ New Dawn + Postmaster

Hello Code,

I do not have to explain them to be content that we do understand that it is an effect related to mass and that in that sense it is highly predictable.

Hey N.Dawn,

As long as you do not say that you have "explained" it.

But it is noted that no religion claims to say what exactly gravity is though I expect when science eventually does know exactly what it is then the bad book writers will dig into their respective holy books and say "we knew that all along"!!


No more like they will say wow our prophet said this a very long time ago and today it has been realised. They wouldn't exactly say we knew it all along. A prophets job is also to foresee the future, you can't expect them to be entirely accurate they are guiding.

I don't know what the "bad book writers" will do when that time comes...
but the Book I do hold in high regard has already assured me of one thing:

"...and of Knowledge you are not given but a little" 17:85 Al Quran

 

[Friend]

Hi Vaj

It is not easy for me to explain my opinion in English language..I don't use it in my daily life..

do you mean to say that you know how to think like a person that holds no belief in a creator deity?

Yes
They follow the same final idea ...

who?

this...NewDawn

Originally Posted by NewDawn
The universe as we see it came to be through the existence of that simplest of molecules Hydrogen and the effect of gravity. All the galaxies stars planets and everything on our little rock came about from a known process. No creator, but the natural evolution of matter according to understandable and testable laws.

Now the naive little parable may work on the uneducated and those ignorant of basic science but really it is but a piece of foolishness. Very much in the same class as telling little children that it is Santa that delivers presents to them at christmas.

the general theory? what does this mean? are you speaking of cosmology now or still biology? i would suspect biology but i'm not sure given that i'm not aware of anything known as "general theory". perhaps you are meaning to indicate what is called the Modern Synthesis which adds new data to the ToE and a subsequent explanation to correlate the new data?

sorry.. I mean the general theory of evolution..

molecules don't actually look like that, you know?

they don't orbit in a fixed path nor, for that matter, can they be rightly said to orbit at all... they are in a quantum cloud, here's a bit about the electron cloud: Electron cloud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Their are different between atoms and molecules..I indicated atoms not molecules ,and those shapes was models not exactly shape of atoms and atom's components...

quantum cloud and wave behaviour of the electron can be similar to cosmos dust or atmosphere around planet shape ..although there are another theory explain the electron's shape..

The latest theory says that the electrons are neither particles or clouds. Instead, they say they are shaped like pieces of string. String Theory has just been stated in the past few years.

Neither theory is easy to visualize, so for the most part we will stick with the older, solar system model. It answers most questions about the atom.

The Atom




The model of atom and the model of solar system is not exactly same .. but their are noticeable similarity.

which let us thinking about the unity of the one who create them.





Thanks to all

 

[Vajradhara]

It's good to see you back, Vajradhara!

And in as good of form as always!

Namaste Juan,

nice to see you as well

metta,

~v

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste code,

thank you for the post.

(sigh)

... just when I think i'm out.. they pull me back in!!!! lol

if you are suggesting that i simply let you have the last word in our conversation, let me know and i shall cease to respond.

(Well first of all, technically I should have said professors.
As I had one course last semester and now this one.)

ok.. so how have you determined that they are correct? are you simply accepting their explanation based on their authority?

The reason why they disagree on the "why" is because
they do not have any testable explanation for it. Its that simple.
Things of this sort confounded the likes of Newton and Einstein,
so when people make the claim that they "understand" or can
"explain" gravity, it would make any real physicist laugh a little.

i would encourage you to read a text by Brain Greene wherein all the testable aspect of string theory are explained and demonstrated, he even goes easy on the math he actually has two books widely available related to this subject: Amazon.com: The Elegant Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory: Brian Greene: Books

Amazon.com: The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality: Brian Greene: Books

indeed, there are testable parts of the theory and, just as we had to wait to verify Special Relativity we have to wait to verify String Theory.

The fact is dude, gravity is a totally unexplained phenomenon.
This concept of what "force" actually is, is a complete mystery.
Like you said yourself, the only thing we know is the how, but
the real question is the "why?"

if you wish to believe this, you are certainly free to do so. i am more than content with the explanation that i provided regarding what gravity is. at some point we will have more data than we do now and we'll see if our understanding of gravity is improved. i expect that this will happen when the GUT is resolved but that may or may not happen during this current arising.

No dude, I mean literally, string theory is not technically a science yet.
In order for anything to be a science, it has to pass the test of the
scientific method i.e. your hypothesis has to be testable. Right now,
the claims made by multi-verse and string theory are not testable.
Maybe in the future when we can test them, it will be proven or disproved.
This is why people are so exited about projects like the LHC, because
its aim is to shed light on these issues which will work towards proving
or disproving the claims of theories like this. All new theories go through
this same stage. It is a progression from non-science, to science.

that we cannot test the theory yet does not mean that the theory is untestable, i hope that we agree on this point.

metta,

~v

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste friend,

thank you for the post.

Hi Vaj

It is not easy for me to explain my opinion in English language..I don't use it in my daily life..

no worries it can be difficult even if you use English every day.

Yes
They follow the same final idea ...

hmm... i would want to ask what you think about when you think about their being no creator deity... does the world suddenly seem different to you when you think like an atheist? when i try to think like a theist, especially one of the Abrahamic faiths, the world seems very different to me.

this...NewDawn

ah, thank you for that.

sorry.. I mean the general theory of evolution.

not to be picky but could you explain a little more of what you mean by this term? as far as i know there isn't a general theory and a specific theory, like we see in Special and General Relativity. there are, indeed, older theories of ToE so it is possible that you are referencing one of those?

Their are different between atoms and molecules..I indicated atoms not molecules ,and those shapes was models not exactly shape of atoms and atom's components...

but your picture was of molecules, wasn't it? molecules are combinations of atoms with strong or weak bonds.

i'm glad that you agree that those models are not accurate representations of what the atomic constituants of an molecule look like. the orbits of the planets around the sun are, equally, non-circular by the way.

The model of atom and the model of solar system is not exactly same .. but their are noticeable similarity.

which let us thinking about the unity of the one who create them.

well.. i agree that the drawings look alike but we both agree that the drawings aren't what those things look like so it would be pretty difficult to make any claims of their similarity based on those drawings, wouldn't you agree?

eh.. it's your choice, of course, but i would think that your apologetic would be more effective if it focused on the religion and its tenets rather than on science.

metta,

~v

 

[c0de]

Hey Vaj,


I was just kidding about that "pull me back in" stuff,
its actually a very famous line from that movie The Godfather???
You must have seen it...

Anyways, I am not just blindly accepting the opinion of my professors dude,
I have heard about this from many sources, I recently read a book by
Oswald Spengler (The Decline of the West, I highly recommend it) he mentions this
in that as well. Gravity is in point of fact an unexplained phenomenon.

If you think that the authors which you have read have explained away
gravity, then you have misunderstood what those authors were saying.
They might have theories, but they dont actually know what causes it.
If someone figures out what it is, believe me that person would become
the most famous person in the world overnight, even more then Einstein!

Like I said man, you don't have to take my word for it, just go an ask
an actual physicist: "What causes gravity?" and he will tell you that
no one actually knows what "causes" it. We just know that it is
associated with mass etc.

And as for string theory, I never said that it can never be tested,
all I said was that until it can be, it is technically not a "science".

 

[Postmaster]

Mysteries of Life - Public

 

[Saltmeister]

Like I said man, you don't have to take my word for it, just go an ask an actual physicist: "What causes gravity?" and he will tell you that no one actually knows what "causes" it. We just know that it is associated with mass etc.

Why do people want to know about a cause? I say people should only worry about a cause if they can find one.

Gravity is just a mathematical relationship involving force, mass, position and acceleration.

Maybe the universe is a person who has emotions and just feels like it wants to produce the phenomenon of gravity. So maybe gravity is a personality trait of the universe.

When it rains, the sky is crying . . . What did we do to upset the sky? Why is the sky so sad?

 

[Friend]

Maybe the universe is a person who has emotions and just feels like it wants to produce the phenomenon of gravity. So maybe gravity is a personality trait of the universe.

When it rains, the sky is crying . . . What did we do to upset the sky? Why is the sky so sad?

I think you are project of literature man ..or poet

 

[greymare]

ummm, just to throw a curve ball.......... check out the" land of no horizon" itsa book and on the net i think. a little about gravity.
oh and Salty,,,,,, that was beautiful.

 

[c0de]

Why do people want to know about a cause? I say people should only worry about a cause if they can find one.

Gravity is just a mathematical relationship involving force, mass, position and acceleration.

Maybe the universe is a person who has emotions and just feels like it wants to produce the phenomenon of gravity. So maybe gravity is a personality trait of the universe.

When it rains, the sky is crying . . . What did we do to upset the sky? Why is the sky so sad?

whoa... dude...

i am enlightened

*(goes off into zen mode - starts floating in air)*

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hello Friend,

You entitled this thread "atheists refuted" based on my dismissal of a childish parable you related on another thread. Subsequently you have gone on to produce only inaccurate and misleading ideas that show that you are entirely incapable of seeing through the eyes of atheism, yet you claim you can! I challenge you to do as you say you can do. Present an argument against your belief using science and critical thinking. I think you cannot do it but I would most surely welcome being proven wrong.

Hawddamor

 

[Saltmeister]

whoa... dude...

i am enlightened

*(goes off into zen mode - starts floating in air)*

Life is full of ironies and funny situations.

Last week I saw a chicken crossing the road.

Actually, I was joking.

But I am sure . . . it happens occasionally when a farmer forgets to lock up his chickens . . .

Now that, my friend is an interesting phenomenon. Let's get our scientists on that one. I think we'll make some useful discoveries.

It's not every day that a chicken crosses the road, so when it happens it's a spectacle.

 

[Saltmeister]

I think you are project of literature man ..or poet

oh and Salty,,,,,, that was beautiful.

Thanks, fellow members!

I don't know what made me say that. I guess I felt like I wanted to crack a joke!

Grey: How is it over there in the Sunshine State? Does the sky cry often?

 

[greymare]

oh, mate, its been raining on and off for a week now. Hot and humid. Put it this way, i mowed the yard on Sunday and by wednesday it needed it again. How about you?

 

[Friend]

Hello Friend,

You entitled this thread "atheists refuted" based on my dismissal of a childish parable you related on another thread. Subsequently you have gone on to produce only inaccurate and misleading ideas that show that you are entirely incapable of seeing through the eyes of atheism, yet you claim you can! I challenge you to do as you say you can do. Present an argument against your belief using science and critical thinking. I think you cannot do it but I would most surely welcome being proven wrong.

Hawddamor

From my childish parable that you mentioned ..you still can't put your answer to a very simple question..

You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves?

In this story mentioned below

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an athiest approached them. He said to them, 'I don't believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you're wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.'
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the athiest who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, 'Oh Abu Hanifah, an athiest is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!' Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messeneger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the athiest awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn't arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the athiest to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the athiest started laughing and said, ' Your best debator is too scared! He knows he's wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I gurantee he will not turn up today.'
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the athiest had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, 'Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.'
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologises for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
'Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the athiest to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn't believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, 'Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?' I could not undertsand what was happening before my eyes.'
The athiest meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, 'I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, 'Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.' I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, 'How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?' I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.'
At this moment, the athiest brust out laughing and remarked, 'Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking rediculous, I swear I do not belive a word of it!'
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the athiest and replied, 'You don't believe a word of it? You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves? You dont believe sealant can be poured by itself? You dont believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don't believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?'

The athiest remarked defiantly, 'Yes I dont believe a word of it!'
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, 'If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?

The athiest astonished at his reply got up and fled.