Genuine Question To Theists (all faiths)

enlightenment said:
Thanks.

Here's a bit on top.

If we went back in time, left a few Derren Brown dvd's, together with instructions on how to watch the footage, what do you think the outcome would have been?

I shall try to have a guess.

Either the natives would have considered him a 'demon', and killed him, or they would consider him as 'divine', and revere him.

Then probably kill him anyway!

;)
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I see an opportunity here. If we could go back in time to a point a couple of hundred years after Brown’s death-by-native, we could pen a book, claim it was revealed to us by the ghost of Brown and start a new religion.

We just need some catchy slogan or logo to slap on our shields as we go on a conquest. It wouldn’t be a real religion unless we conquered something... and killed people.
 
enlightenment said:
And you know this how?

:confused:
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It was by intuition, in terms of making a hypothetical statement. I was describing a hypothetical situation there. If the divine powers that be want the world to end with signs and wonders, that is how they would want it to happen.
 
Resigned said:
We've got a big old stretch across the south center of the U.S. where literal interpretation of their Bible is the norm. It's called the "Bible Belt." The people are backward; they exult in their ignorance of science; they despise education. They think the Bible is the only book they have to read.

This includes places such as Florida, ...
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Ain't prejudice a beautiful thing? Oh, wait a minute, that's only in the south too.

This particular backwards, ignorant, uneducated Bible-belter from Florida just sits back and smiles at the arrogant displays of ignorance by those who condescendingly pat each other on the back and stroke each others' egos.

The problem as I see it, is that those who feel the need to do such are not curing the problem...they are merely the mirror image of the same problem. Just more of the same prejudicial ignorance. It's so much more convenient to paint with a big wide brush than to take each and every situation on its own merits.

If Florida is so damn backwards, remember...the Interstate goes *both* ways. You can always carry your Yankee @sses right on back to the hell you came from, instead of "snowbirding" here in sunny Florida until you retire in West Palm thinking that making this state into little New Jersey is a worthwhile goal. If its so much better up north, why do the damn yankees keep coming back?

When I retire, I'm gonna move up north and drive slow in the passing lane...

:D ;)
 
juantoo3 said:
Ain't prejudice a beautiful thing? Oh, wait a minute, that's only in the south too.

This particular backwards, ignorant, uneducated Bible-belter from Florida just sits back and smiles at the arrogant displays of ignorance by those who condescendingly pat each other on the back and stroke each others' egos.

The problem as I see it, is that those who feel the need to do such are not curing the problem...they are merely the mirror image of the same problem. Just more of the same prejudicial ignorance. It's so much more convenient to paint with a big wide brush than to take each and every situation on its own merits.

If Florida is so damn backwards, remember...the Interstate goes *both* ways. You can always carry your Yankee @sses right on back to the hell you came from, instead of "snowbirding" here in sunny Florida until you retire in West Palm thinking that making this state into little New Jersey is a worthwhile goal. If its so much better up north, why do the damn yankees keep coming back?

When I retire, I'm gonna move up north and drive slow in the passing lane...

:D ;)
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Florida will teach evolution but only as theory

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1929595320080219

TALLAHASSEE, Florida (Reuters) - Florida education officials voted on Tuesday to add evolution to required course work in public schools but only after a last-minute change depicting Charles Darwin's seminal work as merely a theory.

Bending to pressure from religious conservatives, the State Board of Education on a 4-3 vote included the "theory" language as part of a retooling of the state's science standards for public school education.

Your dedicated servant can only hope that we nail-biting Yanks can assist you folks.

Coincidently, if you’re ever in New Jersey, (It’s where I live), let me know and I’ll buy you dinner. We won’t even have to shoot it first.:)
 
Resigned said:
Florida will teach evolution but only as theory

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1929595320080219

TALLAHASSEE, Florida (Reuters) - Florida education officials voted on Tuesday to add evolution to required course work in public schools but only after a last-minute change depicting Charles Darwin's seminal work as merely a theory.

Bending to pressure from religious conservatives, the State Board of Education on a 4-3 vote included the "theory" language as part of a retooling of the state's science standards for public school education.

Your dedicated servant can only hope that we nail-biting Yanks can assist you folks.

Coincidently, if you’re ever in New Jersey, (It’s where I live), let me know and I’ll buy you dinner. We won’t even have to shoot it first.:)
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Not sure where that came from , but if ever I saw a piece of contrived hooey...

They teach evolution here in the schools, and not just as a "theory" either.

And while I'm sure you can purchase some wonderful meals in the bistros of New Jersey, it's difficult to surpass the freshness of a good quality road kill. Lacking that, as long as you don't mind picking out the buckshot which *can* be a bit hard on one's teeth, the taste of wild game can't be found in any citified restaurant. Besides, you can't get good gator tail up north.

But you're on. If ever I make it to New Jersey (again, used to drive 18 wheeler, I'm sure that will draw even more southern jokes at my expense), I'll take you up on your offer. In the meantime, if you make it to Florida, I invite you to either some homecooked Chinese or we'll go out for some *fresh* gator tail. ;)

I always need somebody to ski behind the boat as bait... :D
 
juantoo3 said:
OOOP, you had me up to this.

Are you really so certain humans and dinosaurs did not co-exist? Are you absolutely certain they still do not co-exist even today?.
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As certain as anyone can be in order to answer 'yes'.
 
Resigned said:
http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1929595320080219
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From the link:

"I'm not saying it's a fact or not a fact," Raulerson said of Darwin's theory. "I'm saying that it is open to further discussion."
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All I've been saying...is give thought a chance.

Funny, but everytime I broach the issue, evolutionists jump to the conclusion that I *must* be a creationist because I dare question the dogma... :eek: :rolleyes: :p What I really do is try to get the dogmatic followers to come to terms with the discrepencies in their doctrine.
 
Saltmeister said:
It was by intuition, in terms of making a hypothetical statement. I was describing a hypothetical situation there. If the divine powers that be want the world to end with signs and wonders, that is how they would want it to happen.
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Okay.

Hypothetically then.

Why would the 'divine powers' want to bring about the end of all life with a series of signs and wonders?

To achieve what?

A form of saying "Ah ha, see, we told you we were for real?".:)

A cosmic version of sticking two fingers up to non believers?

Some sort of mystic version of a fireworks display?

I cannot think what such a thing would actually achieve, can you?
 
enlightenment said:
As certain as anyone can be in order to answer 'yes'.
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Do you think that somebody finding the fossilized remains of an alligator or turtle from today at some point a million years from now will be able to distinguish between it and other dinosaur fossils? (Other than the obvious soil strata dating)
 
juantoo3 said:
Do you think that somebody finding the fossilized remains of an alligator or turtle from today at some point a million years from now will be able to distinguish between it and other dinosaur fossils? (Other than the obvious soil strata dating)
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Yes.

I do.
 
enlightenment said:
Yes.

I do.
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Good, then what would you conclude if you found human remains in the same strata?

It seems to me one could conceivably conclude that at some point humans co-existed with some saurian descendents.

What is more, things like dragon myths (which cover cultures from around the world-Asia, Euro-centric Pagans, Judeo-Christian-Islam monotheism, Aztec-Mayan and even Polynesia) suggest some quite antique interaction between humans and "living" thunder lizards. Things like the Ishtar gate, the Cambodian temple and the Peruvian pottery show a familiarity not just with the fossilized bones, but the flesh covered bodies of creatures we collectively call dinosaurs. Throw in the fantastic specimens of serpents hunted in South America in the earliest 1900's that would be met with equal dismissal to yours were it not for the fact the carcasses were physically available for observation, and I do think there is more to the story than we are commonly led to believe.

Are humans as old as dinosaurs? I don't know, but I doubt it. I think the question is really: are dinosaurs as recent as humans? To that question I am of the opinion the answer is "yes."
 
enlightenment said:
Good.

Nurture that doubt.

They predated early humans by many millions of years.
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Ah, nice dodge.

It totally evades the premise set forth in your original comment, to wit:

"Some even think that man and the dinosaurs co-existed!"

The reality and fact is that dinosaurs and humans *now,* currently as we communicate, still co-exist, and have as long as humans have been human...by virtue of the fact that alligators and their cousins, turtles and their cousins, sharks and their cousins, ceolocanths and their cousins, and quite a few other remnant holdovers from the "dinosaurian" epochs, still exist.
 
If what you are proposing is that dinosaurs did co exist with homo sapien, then I am afraid that you are simply electing to ignore the wealth of evidence out there, to the contrary.

Even most theists I know would concede that science has shown this not to be the case.
 
enlightenment said:
If what you are proposing is that dinosaurs did co exist with homo sapien, then I am afraid that you are simply electing to ignore the wealth of evidence out there, to the contrary.

Even most theists I know would concede that science has shown this not to be the case.
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And I argue with the theists with equal vigor.

I'm afraid that if you are speaking for science, and in my experience I believe you are pointed in that general direction, then you are dismissing out of hand hard evidence to the contrary.

But that's OK, evolution is full of inconsistencies that don't hold up to the hype under scrutiny. I've been all over that before though, no need to re-entertain that here. A casual look through any of the old creation versus evolution discussions here will sum it up well.

Not that evolution in some form is invalid, but that evolution as is commonly preached to the masses as a dogmatic doctrine is full of fallibility. The explanations don't hold up to the observations, and neither hold up to the political necessity.
 
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juantoo3 said:
And I argue with the theists with equal vigor.
.
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You shouldn't.

Instead, buy some books, books that will show you that it is not just guesswork that led us to know that dinosaurs walked this planet long before our ancestors, but peer reviewed research, and exhaustive testing.

What else can I say....:rolleyes:
 
juantoo3 said:
But those same books also show that all the critters I mentioned are with us still.
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So what?

How does the fact that there are modern turtles today, disprove that man and dinosaur lived millions of years apart?
 
enlightenment said:
So what?

How does the fact that there are modern turtles today, disprove that man and dinosaur lived millions of years apart?
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How far different are modern turtles from ancient ones? What *significant* differences exist?

Stated another way, if there truly were significant differences, they would no longer be turtles.
 
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