Genuine Question To Theists (all faiths)

enlightenment said:
Can they really be so blind as to ignore the scientific evidence that lies before their eyes?
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Seems to me ignoring the Ishtar gate (a very well known archeological artifact), the carvings on the Cambodian temple and the hundreds of *different* pottery vessels from Peru is behaving in a manner every bit as blind...
 
juantoo3 said:
How far different are modern turtles from ancient ones? What *significant* differences exist?

Stated another way, if there truly were significant differences, they would no longer be turtles.
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There are many species of creature which have not changed that much, even after millions of years.

Scorpions are another example.

The dinosaurs died out. Extincto. As a species. Over a period of time. Lots of theories as to why, the most common being something which led to a significant change in their environment.

But hard science and carbon dating has shown them to have walked this earth well before homo sapien.

It's all out there for ya!

:D
 
juantoo3 said:
Seems to me ignoring the Ishtar gate (a very well known archeological artifact), the carvings on the Cambodian temple and the hundreds of *different* pottery vessels from Peru is behaving in a manner every bit as blind...
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What about them?
 
enlightenment said:
There are many species of creature which have not changed that much, even after millions of years.

Scorpions are another example.

The dinosaurs died out. Extincto. As a species. Over a period of time. Lots of theories as to why, the most common being something which led to a significant change in their environment.

But hard science and carbon dating has shown them to have walked this earth well before homo sapien.

It's all out there for ya!

:D
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But they didn't. Those same books tell us T-rex and raptors became birds (among other things, in case you might have thought I am not capable of reading books on evolution, perhaps intellectually challenged in that regard?). There were more than one species of dinosaur...many more than one species. Not all died out. Many did die out. Some are with us still, in one form or another. But some are essentially unchanged, effectively the same as they were 65, or 100 million years ago. In effect, there are still dinos walking among us *now.* Hard to fathom against the dogmatic doctrine taught in the hallowed halls and ivory towers of the cathedrals of science, I know. But reality is like that.

Reality tends to put a damper on all sorts of cherished delusions...
 
enlightenment said:
Okay.

Hypothetically then.

Why would the 'divine powers' want to bring about the end of all life with a series of signs and wonders? To achieve what?

A form of saying "Ah ha, see, we told you we were for real?".:) A cosmic version of sticking two fingers up to non believers? Some sort of mystic version of a fireworks display? I cannot think what such a thing would actually achieve, can you?
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They'd do it because they're bored. They want some adventure.

It's because they're sick of humans minding their own business. So it's time to start stirring up trouble. It's time for a few introductions and greetings.

With a roar and a bang, the divine powers announce their existence.

They aren't content to be included in a community of human peers. They want to be regarded as what they are: divine. They will not allow their treasured pride and honour to be made cheap and insignificant.

Humans have had their fun eating the meat of other animals, stomping on insects and mucking around with lab mice and rats. This fills the divine with jealousy and envy. It's time to stop being Mr. Nice Guy. How dare these humans keep the fun to themselves.

So they finally decide it's time to turn the whole planet into DisneyLand. They don't want to miss out on a bit of earthly adventure. Being divine for so long has been no fun.
 
Saltmeister said:
They'd do it because they're bored. They want some adventure.

It's because they're sick of humans minding their own business. So it's time to start stirring up trouble. It's time for a few introductions and greetings.

With a roar and a bang, the divine powers announce their existence.

They aren't content to be included in a community of human peers. They want to be regarded as what they are: divine. They will not allow their treasured pride and honour to be made cheap and insignificant.

Humans have had their fun eating the meat of other animals, stomping on insects and mucking around with lab mice and rats. This fills the divine with jealousy and envy. It's time to stop being Mr. Nice Guy. How dare these humans keep the fun to themselves.

So they finally decide it's time to turn the whole planet into DisneyLand. They don't want to miss out on a bit of earthly adventure. Being divine for so long has been no fun.
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So.

Kind of like keeping an ant colony, getting bored with it, then destroying it?
 
juantoo3 said:
But they didn't. Those same books tell us T-rex and raptors became birds (among other things, in case you might have thought I am not capable of reading books on evolution, perhaps intellectually challenged in that regard?). There were more than one species of dinosaur...many more than one species. Not all died out. Many did die out. Some are with us still, in one form or another. But some are essentially unchanged, effectively the same as they were 65, or 100 million years ago. In effect, there are still dinos walking among us *now.* Hard to fathom against the dogmatic doctrine taught in the hallowed halls and ivory towers of the cathedrals of science, I know. But reality is like that.
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Name one species that is alive today?

A turtle or a bird does not count.
 
enlightenment said:
Name one species that is alive today?

A turtle or a bird does not count.
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If a turtle is essentially the same as it was 100 million years ago, then it *is* a dinosaur that has not died out.

Dogma notwithstanding.

Alligators, since you do not wish to accept the reality of turtles too. And you *do* realize "bird" is not a species, right?
 
juantoo3 said:
If a turtle is essentially the same as it was 100 million years ago, then it *is* a dinosaur that has not died out.

Dogma nothwithstanding.
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A turtle is not a dinosaur.

Name one dinosaur that exists today, without using turtles and birds.

:)
 
Huh?

Look, what I am saying is that the genus aka dinosaurs were a distinct group. That group went from distinct to extinct. I am stating that man did not walk the earth at the same time as T Rex, and other species.

If it makes you happy to think otherwise, go right ahead.

Makes no difference to the facts, fella.

:p
 
Just as the facts that some few species of dinosaur still exist until today makes no difference to your beliefs.

Hard to have an intelligent conversation with a zealot, I know. Passersby can't tell who the crazy one is... :D
 
But don't take my word for it:

In addition, the alligator has been described as a 'living fossil from the age of reptiles, having survived on earth for 200 million years'.[1]

An average American alligator's weight and length is 800 pounds (360 kg) and 13 feet (4.0 m) long, but can grow to 14.5 feet (4.4 m) long[2] and weigh 1,032 pounds (468 kg).[3] According to the Everglades National Park website, the largest alligator ever recorded in Florida was 17 feet 5 inches (5.3 m), although according to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission web site the Florida state record for length is a 14 feet 5/8 inches (4.28 m) male from Lake Monroe in Seminole County[4]. The Chinese alligator is smaller, rarely exceeding 7 feet (2.1 m) in length.
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emphasis mine, ~jt3

Alligator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The order Testudines includes both extant (living) and extinct species. The earliest known turtles date from 215 million years ago,[1] making turtles one of the oldest reptile groups and a more ancient group than lizards and snakes. About 300 species are alive today, and some are highly endangered.
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Turtle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evidence for the existence of sharks extends back over 450–420 million years, into the Ordovician period, before land vertebrates existed and before many plants had colonised the continents.
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Shark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prehistoric species of coelacanth lived in many bodies of water in Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic times.
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Coelacanth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"We determined that T. rex, in fact, grouped with birds--ostrich and chicken--better than any other organism that we studied," he says. "We also showed that it groups better with birds than modern reptiles, such as alligators and green anole lizards."

While scientists have long suspected that birds, and not more basal reptiles, are dinosaurs' closest living relatives, for years that hypothesis rested largely on morphological similarities in bird and dinosaur skeletons.
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Phylogenetic Tree: Dinosaurs, Alligators And ... Ostriches?
 
enlightenment said:
So.

Kind of like keeping an ant colony, getting bored with it, then destroying it?
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Not really. Ants are a much lower level of sentience. You can't have a conversation with an ant. Not a real conversation.

A parent can have a conversation with a child, take a child to DisneyLand and try to be a hero that way.

Let's say you're a kid. Your dad isn't much fun, but you have a friend who has a dad who regularly takes his kids out on exotic adventures. Your friend is a prophet/wonder worker. You would much rather spend time with your friend's dad than your own dad.

Dads are divine.:)
 
juantoo3 said:
And gay marriage is not here, based on a vote that went to the people.

In both instances, the populace decided. That's what democracy is about, right?
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Your comment is completely irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that Massachusetts is a more liberal state and if Enlightenment were to poll theists from here he'd probably get fewer fundy statements than he would in other parts of the country.
 
juantoo3 said:
Just as the facts that some few species of dinosaur still exist until today makes no difference to your beliefs.

Hard to have an intelligent conversation with a zealot, I know. Passersby can't tell who the crazy one is... :D
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:rolleyes: Well, you just keep on beleiving that man and dinosaur shared the same air space, I am sure if you say it often enough you might start to believe it.

What next... that dinosaur bones were planted as some sort of elaborate hoax, by evil atheist science!

:D
 
enlightenment said:
:rolleyes: Well, you just keep on beleiving that man and dinosaur shared the same air space, I am sure if you say it often enough you might start to believe it.

What next... that dinosaur bones were planted as some sort of elaborate hoax, by evil atheist science!
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The very same evil atheist scientists who wrote the wiki articles I quoted for you.

Alas, it is always a disturbing thing to find conflict within one's dogma...here they teach this, and there they teach that...whatever is a lay person to believe? And now I find there are things they know about and neglected to tell us...

Hey, you asked for the opinion of a scientifically minded theist. I merely obliged. ;)
 
dauer said:
Your comment is completely irrelevant to the point I was making, which is that Massachusetts is a more liberal state and if Enlightenment were to poll theists from here he'd probably get fewer fundy statements than he would in other parts of the country.
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With all due respect, I hardly see how my comment was irrelevent. The conversation was -in a general sense, at that time- about how liberal the north was compared to how *backwards,* uneducated and <gasp> conservative the south is.

If Mass. has approved such unions, good for them. They decided, fair and square, what rules to make and follow for themselves. That's what democracy is all about.

We did the same thing here, we decided for ourselves how to rule ourselves, fair and square. Are we to be faulted for it, because we don't agree with the Kennedy dynasty?
 
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