Debate on Science

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Lol, who is talking about "cloned pigs"? My neighbor can attest to the fact that standard pig organs work in human bodies...she is still alive because of one giving heart parts to her.

Citizen, you are grasping at straws in desperation...

Oh, and Ms. Bailey got her pig parts in 2007...your article is about seven years out of date...

The dates work in my favor. If she had gotten her parts seven years before the article, you might have a case.

You're not thinking very logically here. Are you sure your want to continue sticking to your story?
 
The date works in my favor. If she had gotten her parts seven years before the article, you might have a case.

You're not thinking very logically here. Are you sure your want to continue sticking to your story?
Now why should I concern myself with justifying the here and now? Then it was a theory, now it is a fact...I win.

Kind of like pre-mature ejaculation, some science thought. At the time nothing happens, so you just have to wait until the timing is right before you can call the ball.
 
Now why should I concern myself with justifying the here and now? Then it was a theory, now it is a fact...I win.

I think it's time for greymare to get you to bed... with an aspirin of two to keep tomorrow morning's headache from being too debilitating.
 
I'm just concerned for you... you're not thinking very clearly right now.
Lol, that is a "theory", not a fact, that you can prove. However, if I agreed with your assessment of things, then you'd be just as content to call me...something more benign.

However, it isn't nice to make accusations (or imply such) of which you know nothing about. Especially when it was just getting interesting...

Kind of like me calling you a 'republican"...(ouch)
 
However, it isn't nice to make accusations (or imply such) of which you know nothing about. Especially when it was just getting interesting...

Okay, I'm going to do a little more searching to find even more evidence that you sir, are sadly mistaken.

Have you done any research on this beside talking with your neighbor over coffee?

Would you be so kind as to verify your claims with an article that we could all reference?

Thank you. I'll be back soon. This shouldn't take too long.
 
Okay, I'm going to do a little more searching to find even more evidence that you sir, are sadly mistaken.

Have you done any research on this beside talking with your neighbor over coffee?

Would you be so kind as to verify your claims with an article that we could all reference?

Thank you. I'll be back soon. This shouldn't take too long.
Indeed sir. I will be happy to provide you with the "research" I have done, lest I leave even the least bit of doubt hanging from a leaf before your visage. That simply would not do for someone who really wants to know...
 
5 minutes later...

Pig To Human Transplantation Getting Closer ScienceDaily (July 23, 2007)

Experiments using pigs genetically engineered for compatibility with the human immune system have raised hopes that cross-species transplantation could soon become an option for patients with diabetes and other currently incurable diseases. However, many scientific hurdles remain before the ultimate goal of inducing long-term tolerance of animal tissues and organs in human recipients, according to a special paper in the July 15 issue of the journal Transplantation, published by Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, a part of Wolters Kluwer Health.

Don't worry Q1, I'll find plenty more.
 
In a court of law, that would be considered "circumstantial evidence" which rarely on its own merit, results in a conviction.

Science and law are not the same thing. And I can't see how the combination of the fossil record, various types of dating, AND genetic research is merely "circumstantial." What then is real data?

As this is a theory with no evidence conclusive to back the supposition up, I'd have to call it as it stands...not proven (yet). There are arguments now that state Neandrathal walked side by side with and even bred with homo sapien sapien as little as 40,000 years ago...

No, it is not a theory that dogs/wolves split later than humans/primates. It is really very clear. Dogs were domesticated by humans around 12,000 years ago, as evidenced by the fossil record and pre-historical cultural artifacts. They were one of the first domesticates, but on the outside, you're looking at perhaps 15000 years ago. They are the same genetically as wolves, but like all domesticated animals, what we basically did was breed for arrested development, so dogs are like goofy and compliant wolf pups for their entire lives, rather than maturing into the smarter, more dangerous variety. You can see this even moreso in horses, as the oldest breeds are also some of the more difficult to train and work with as they tend to be more naturally self-sufficient and intelligent.

As for Neanderthals... a few basic facts are in order. It is currently debated whether or not Neanderthals and modern H. sapiens interbred. What is not debated is the implications of this. Those that think Neanderthals and us hooked up do not think the two were different species, but rather different varieties of the same species, which is why they call us H. sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals are H. sapiens neanderthalensis. Thsoe that disagree and think they did not interbreed say we are H. sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals are H. neanderthalensis. This is an important distinction as the successful production of fertile offspring negate an important defining factor for separating species, hence the movement of nomenclature from the sub-species (varietal) level to the species level in this example.

But the point there is that the DNA still contained enough compatible attributes to even allow for such continuations of breeding, after long periods of isolation.

What is "long periods of isolation" is relative. Evolutionary time, like geologic time, is not like our sense of time. And even so, the argument doesn't hold water because evolution is based on random mutation interacting with environmental variables. This means some species have changed very little over time (horseshoe crabs) while others have changed a lot (apes in general). It isn't one single timeline for every species, genera, etc. It depends on how random mutuations interact with environment.

And genetically speaking, dogs, wolves, horses and donkeys have the same chromosonal numbers...Man and apes do not. But all primates other than man, do share the same number of chromosones...

And the point is? Mutations can happen at a genomal level (entire chromosomes) as well as point or chromosomal (parts of chromosomes). Which would explain a lot about why humans and apes can't interbreed, but means nothing in terms of our lineage.

To assume one is not knowledgable due to a lack of PHD, would be...an assumption I would not be willing to entertain.

That isn't what I said. I said most people (in my experience) who do not have at least a couple years of advanced biology or genetics (said nothing of PhD, but rather upper division undergrad coursework) tend to be poorly educated about how population genetics works, the details of evolutionary theory, and details concerning dating methods, morphology, etc. And this means that they often completely misunderstand how evolution actually works and what scientists have actually uncovered.

A good analogy is my understanding of quantum mechanics and string theory. I've read about it and watched PBS shows for years, but I simply don't kid myself that I actually have a good enough handle on physics to grasp the evidence and debates in that field. Now, if I put in a few years of education into it, maybe I'd get a bit closer. I'm not an expert on human evolution- it isn't my subdiscipline within anthropology. But I know the basics well enough and have seen the evidence up close to realize that most people just don't seem to be getting it.
 
This article talks about the same issues as my original article... 9 years later.

S.Korea scientists clone pig for human transplants Apr 22, 2009

SEOUL (AFP) — South Korean scientists said they have cloned a piglet whose organs were genetically modified to make them more suitable for human transplants.

Lead scientist Lim Gio-Bin said the cloned piglet, born on April 3, had been genetically altered to lack the "alpha-gal" gene which triggers tissue rejection.

He said his government-sponsored team, involving scientists from four universities and two research institutes, used stem cells of smaller-than-normal pigs to clone "mini-pigs" with modified genes.

Immuno-rejection has been a major hurdle in human organ transplants. Pig organs are well suited for transplantation but are coated with sugar molecules that trigger acute rejection in human bodies. Human antibodies attach themselves to such molecules and quickly destroy the transplanted pig organ.

"Our team produced four cloned mini-pigs from about 100 surrogate pigs but only one male named Xeno survived," Lim told AFP, adding his team is now working to produce a female piglet.

"Through mating we will be able to produce many genetically modified mini-pigs whose organs are more suitable for xenotransplantation (transplantation between different species)," he said.

In cloning Xeno, the scientist said his team adopted almost identical technology to that used by US scientists in 2002 to create cloned piglets, in which one copy of the sugar-producing gene was "knocked out."

An organism receives two copies of a gene, one from the mother and one from the father. Scientists have tried to produce pigs lacking both copies, so far unsuccessfully.

"Through our achievement South Korea became the second country in the world to clone such piglets after the United States," Lim said.

"I believe our methods are slightly better. Xeno will help us accumulate technology and resources, which can be used to produce many mini-pigs of good quality."

Lim said his team would conduct clinical trials on humans in 2012 and he believed genetically modified mini-pigs could be used commercially around 2017.
 
You getting tired of this yet Q1?

About.com Biology

Are Pig to Human Organ Transplants Possible? Thursday March 29, 2007

Researchers speculate that animal to human organ transplants may be possible in the future. The reason behind this new hope is the development of genetically modified pigs.

Transplants between two different species, called xenotransplantations, have not previously been successful due to aggressive immune responses from the organism receiving the foreign organ. Since the genetically modified pigs are more compatible with humans, it is hoped that the foreign organs will not be rejected.
 
Nope...

Yes. It’s true… For patients requiring heart valve replacement surgery, one of your surgical options will be a pig valve replacement (also known as a porcine valve and a bioprosthetic heart valve).
I’ll never forget when I was diagnosed with severe aortic stenosis. That was a difficult experience. Open heart surgery was definitely not in my “life plan”. The challenge of digesting that diagnosis was compounded when I learned that a pig valve might offer my dilated heart relief.
I remember thinking, “HUH??!!! A PIG VALVE REPLACEMENT? YOU WANT TO PUT A PIG VALVE IN MY HEART?”
As I would later learn, pig valves have been used as human heart valve transplants for over twenty years. Companies including Edwards Lifesciences and St. Jude Medical are the leading pig valve replacement manufacturers. Interestingly enough, cow valve tissue is also used in the construction of pericardial heart valve replacements - known as bovine valves.
pig-valve-transplant.gif

It’s actually quite interesting… By some amazing twist of evolution, human heart valves and pig valves are very similar in structure and function. That said, pig valve replacement surgery is rather common. I’ve actually toured a pig valve manufacturing center of Edwards Lifesciences in Irvine, California. It was fascinating to see the complex process by which pig valves are fitted for heart valve replacement operations.

I can go on, but actions speak louder than speculations...you?
 
Q1, this article mentions that pig skin and valves have been used in human transplants. Perhaps your neighbor has a pig valve. That's as close to anything I've seen to bolster your side of the argument.

But as for whole organs or pigs being closer genetic matches than primates, well, it looks like you're quite incorrect there.

Technology Review published by MIT TUESDAY, OCTOBER 10, 2006

Pig-to-Human Transplants on the Horizon

Transplantation between two different species, which is known as xenotransplantation, is not easy. To date, pig skin and pig valves have been used in human transplants, but not entire organs. When patients get an organ transplant from a human donor, doctors stave off immune rejection with organs matched to the recipient's tissue type and heavy doses of immunosuppressant drugs.

But when organs are transplanted between species, immune attack is swift and much more severe. Pigs and other animals have a specific sugar not present in humans and old-world primates. So when a pig organ is transplanted into a baboon, for example, antibodies circulating in the baboon's blood immediately swarm and attack the pig tissue, leading to the death of the organ.

Scientists made a major advance in overcoming this immune barrier in 2002 by creating genetically engineered pigs that lack the enzyme that attaches the sugar to the surface of pig cells. In a paper published in Nature Medicine last year, Sachs showed that baboons given kidneys from these genetically modified pigs lived for up to 83 days, far longer than the average 30-day survival time for animals receiving regular pig kidneys.
 
And one ironic twist is that for all the haluboo about man being related to apes, we are actually genetically closer to "porcines", than "primates".

Man, can take the heart of a pig and live, with little or no rejection, Same with pig skin. Same with intestines. (I don't think other organs have been tried, but then perhaps there have been no human shortage of the same). Ape organs absolutely do not work within the human body.

If you had only limited your argument to a pig's valve or skin we may not have had so much to disagree with.

And the genetics of a pig being closer than a primate? Care to backtrack on that one? You should.
 
Science and law are not the same thing. And I can't see how the combination of the fossil record, various types of dating, AND genetic research is merely "circumstantial." What then is real data?



No, it is not a theory that dogs/wolves split later than humans/primates. It is really very clear. Dogs were domesticated by humans around 12,000 years ago, as evidenced by the fossil record and pre-historical cultural artifacts. They were one of the first domesticates, but on the outside, you're looking at perhaps 15000 years ago. They are the same genetically as wolves, but like all domesticated animals, what we basically did was breed for arrested development, so dogs are like goofy and compliant wolf pups for their entire lives, rather than maturing into the smarter, more dangerous variety. You can see this even moreso in horses, as the oldest breeds are also some of the more difficult to train and work with as they tend to be more naturally self-sufficient and intelligent.

As for Neanderthals... a few basic facts are in order. It is currently debated whether or not Neanderthals and modern H. sapiens interbred. What is not debated is the implications of this. Those that think Neanderthals and us hooked up do not think the two were different species, but rather different varieties of the same species, which is why they call us H. sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals are H. sapiens neanderthalensis. Thsoe that disagree and think they did not interbreed say we are H. sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals are H. neanderthalensis. This is an important distinction as the successful production of fertile offspring negate an important defining factor for separating species, hence the movement of nomenclature from the sub-species (varietal) level to the species level in this example.



What is "long periods of isolation" is relative. Evolutionary time, like geologic time, is not like our sense of time. And even so, the argument doesn't hold water because evolution is based on random mutation interacting with environmental variables. This means some species have changed very little over time (horseshoe crabs) while others have changed a lot (apes in general). It isn't one single timeline for every species, genera, etc. It depends on how random mutuations interact with environment.



And the point is? Mutations can happen at a genomal level (entire chromosomes) as well as point or chromosomal (parts of chromosomes). Which would explain a lot about why humans and apes can't interbreed, but means nothing in terms of our lineage.



That isn't what I said. I said most people (in my experience) who do not have at least a couple years of advanced biology or genetics (said nothing of PhD, but rather upper division undergrad coursework) tend to be poorly educated about how population genetics works, the details of evolutionary theory, and details concerning dating methods, morphology, etc. And this means that they often completely misunderstand how evolution actually works and what scientists have actually uncovered.

A good analogy is my understanding of quantum mechanics and string theory. I've read about it and watched PBS shows for years, but I simply don't kid myself that I actually have a good enough handle on physics to grasp the evidence and debates in that field. Now, if I put in a few years of education into it, maybe I'd get a bit closer. I'm not an expert on human evolution- it isn't my subdiscipline within anthropology. But I know the basics well enough and have seen the evidence up close to realize that most people just don't seem to be getting it.
Path, with all due respect, Joseph of the Iraelites never existed, let alone steped foot in Egypt, let alone ruled as Prime Minister of all of Egypt...until they found his name, written in Hebrew, among the Hieroglyphs of a palace, noted as "Pharoahs" second in command. Furthermore, they found his signat rings with his hebrew name, in the dirt next to a ruined place that was once a palace...

Do you see where evidence can become cannon fodder? Because regardless of what proof is provided, some will never accept it.
 
If you had only limited your argument to a pig's valve and skin we may not have had so much to disagree with.

And the genetics of a pig being closer than a primate? Care to backtrack on that one?
Nope... care to show me a successful ape/human transplant, of any kind? Even genetically altered in some fashion?

As I reflect back, my original point was that science is absolute, either it works or it does not. Until proven, it is simply a theory...care to back track on that? Probably not...I'm just a drunk as far as you are concerned...lol.
 
ironic there is no mention of the possibility of ape parts taking pig parts' place in keeping humans alive...

more ironic is your failure to research and provide the possibility of ape parts fixing humans...

I don't see the irony here. In the articles that I've read this is literally a method of "farming" organs. Creating the correct genetic combination in pigs took four generations.

The "failures" could be turned into bacon. I don't think monkey bacon would sell as well. Like most things in this world I suspect it comes down to economics.

Nor would the ethics of farming our closest relative be so easy to shrug off.
 
Nope... care to show me a successful ape/human transplant, of any kind? Even genetically altered in some fashion?

So you're standing by the assertion that Human's closest genetic match is found in pigs and not primates?

I don't know what else to say. But it has been a fun debate (as lopsided as it was).

I'm going to leave this as it stands and give some of our esteemed colleagues a chance to weigh in on the matter if they wish.

Don't forget those aspirin. Take care.
 
So you're standing by the assertion that Human's closest genetic match is found in pigs and not primates?

I don't know what else to say. But it has been a fun debate (as lopsided as it was).

I'm going to leave this as it stands and give some of our esteemed colleagues a chance to weigh in on the matter if they wish.

Don't forget those aspirin. Take care.
Hmmm, thanks. Enjoy the cut and run...
 
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