Why some hate the Jewish people?

[bananabrain]

The jews in a way set themselves up for hate in separating from the society/culture they found themselves in after the diaspora; unlike andalusia in the golden age circa 9th century, where muslims and jews lived peacably.

WHAT? we did not separate *ourselves* from society. we were HERDED INTO GHETTOS and forced to live separately. the society did not want us - except when they needed someone to deal with money. in no way, shape or form should that be construed as "setting ourselves up for hate". as for andalusia, lose the rose-tinted glasses and read some history. we lived peaceably there whenever there weren't fundamentalists in charge. read up on the almohad and almoravid persecutions before you maintain that it was all wine, roses and poetry. jews lived under the "pact of umar", meaning that we were second-class citizens, with less value to society than muslims, protected as dhimmi only on the condition that we paid a "protection tax". whenever the pact of umar conditions were enforced (and they were always there in the background) no new synagogues were allowed, jews were not allowed on horseback and there were a myriad of other demeaning restrictions. ok, it was a lot better than being demonised in christendom, but we were still officially held in contempt in the muslim world.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[nativeastral]

oh, so not being able to sit down for a meal with 'anyone' is not separation? much like the caste system and their notions of purity the observances of judaism did have a part to play; initially, in some places, they were not stuck in ghettos , but they chose to keep separate from the host society because of the danger of 'contamination' and like any ethnic group nowadays you find they stick together for obvious purposes, not least around their place of worship. You are generalising too when you state jews and muslims never got along but that is no excuse for the way the state of Israel are handling their affairs at the present moment. two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[bananabrain]

oh, so not being able to sit down for a meal with 'anyone' is not separation?

in medieval christendom and islamdom, nobody would sit down for a meal with anyone not of their own religion, so i hardly see how that is "setting ourselves up for hate". if you are talking about nowadays, there is no rule against eating together, only a rule about what is eaten, how and when. in other words, i can eat with you as long as it's in a kosher place like a restaurant or a private home, or we can share a picnic as long as the food and utensils are kosher. obviously there are some people who interpret that in a chauvinist way, but it is flying in the face of what the religion actually says and i'd challenge you to find any group that was 100% free of xenophobia. we are no exception.

much like the caste system and their notions of purity the observances of judaism did have a part to play; initially, in some places, they were not stuck in ghetto, but they chose to keep separate from the host society because of the danger of 'contamination'

not because of the danger of persecution, or the need to be within close walking distance of community facilities? not because people from other religions didn't want to live near them? this is simply assertion; produce some evidence if you want to make such an aggressively intolerant point.

and like any ethnic group nowadays you find they stick together for obvious purposes, not least around their place of worship.

you seem to be implying that that is in some way suspicious. i am sure i could say that scots stick together for obvious purposes, not least around burns night and hogmanay. i wouldn't read anything into that, however.

You are generalising too when you state jews and muslims never got along

no, that is not what i said. we got along just fine when there were not islamic fundamentalists running the country, but not as equals. we were dhimmi and, therefore, inferior in the eyes of the law and society. all the power was in the hands of the islamic rulers, so it was up to them whether we "got along" or not.

but that is no excuse for the way the state of Israel are handling their affairs at the present moment. two wrongs don't make a right.

a) who said they do? not i.
b) who says that the way the state of israel handles its affairs is anything to do with how jews lived in the islamic world?
c) who brought up the state of israel and what relevance does it have to this discussion?

if you want to talk about israel, start yet another thread and get your prejudices out in the open with the rest of the anti-zionists. it won't be anything i haven't heard before and i'm sure it will be just as boring as every other israel-bashing-fest i've ever witnessed. go ahead, knock yourself out.

sheesh. why not ask me when i quit beating my wife, poisoning wells and drinking christian babies' blood as well?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[GlorytoGod]

well this is my take,

The Jewish people are fairly xenophobic and by that I mean they keep themselves to themselves how else could they have survived for so longs a distinct cultural group.

Also they are successful which make people Jealous.

dislike of the Jews is common amongst Muslims because Mohamed was always fighting with the Jews.

Sorry if this offends and muslims or jewish people.

 

[nativeastral]

"setting ourselves up for hate".


if you want to make such an aggressively intolerant point.


you seem to be implying that that is in some way suspicious.


a) who said they do? not i.
b) who says that the way the state of israel handles its affairs is anything to do with how jews lived in the islamic world?
c) who brought up the state of israel and what relevance does it have to this discussion?

if you want to talk about israel, start yet another thread and get your prejudices out in the open with the rest of the anti-zionists. it won't be anything i haven't heard before and i'm sure it will be just as boring as every other israel-bashing-fest i've ever witnessed. go ahead, knock yourself out.

calm down BB. the reason l used hate is because of the use of it in the OP.
l would hardly call my viewpoint aggressively intolerant, just my 2c in studying history. They were not ghettoised in roman society but stuck together and l was talking about then not now. in any case yes it is considered suspicious by some [not me], when groups distance themselves from the majority culture, much like how gypsies/travellers are treated like pariahs.

l did not insinuate whatever you may think, but the fact is that jews in Israel are considered by some worthy of hate, whether you accept that or not. The state of Israel could have been an ideal society, incorporating all of the wisdom it has accumulated in the hardships endured over hundreds of years but instead took a more elitist route and so is still suffering within its borders.

peace out

 

[17th Angel]

Also they are successful which make people Jealous.

Oh teh jews? Teh one's that likes teh monies? *rubs thumb and index finger together in a way to symbolise money*

 

[Tao_Equus]

sheesh. why not ask me when i quit beating my wife, poisoning wells and drinking christian babies' blood as well?

b'shalom

bananabrain

Wow! Never realised you did all these things! See you still love to try and put ridiculous words in the mouths of everyone. And htf has Israel got nothing to do with it? Over half the worlds Jews are there and support what the rest of the world considers an endless series of human rights violations on the people who's land they have taken. I think you should go take that victim card your playing and ram it square up your ass.

 

[Dream]

The Israel issue is not simple. I think the opening question was about culture and history. Really its asking is it miraculous that both Hitler & Hamen, the Pogrom-ers, etc. specifically wanted to eradicate the Jews? Is it something they are doing, was it the black hats or what. More cultural than a political inquiry.

As a country Israel has lots of possibilities, lots of high and conflicting ideals within itself. Staying alive is one of them, and its a small country under seige. It should have become an ideal society maybe, but maybe that remains a possibility.

 

[Faithfulservant]

What has my attitude got to do with anything?

You claim it is an oxymoron for a jew to (hate dislike whatever) a christian because some person called jesus was a jew... That has nothing to do with it. But then ic omes back to "claiming means squat" Jesus taught he was -thee- son of god, which isn't a very jewish thing to claim, and also that he could forgive sins, in the eyes of a jew god, and only god can forgive all sins. The Torah teaches to face, confront, and defeat evil... Jesus taught to turn away from it.

To pray to god, all you must do is pray..... This is the Jewish way, Jesus, he said you had to pray through him.... Jewish? Or a defector who made his own religion..... So sure, claiming as you say doesn't mean squat....

So what I mean is sure Hitler did alot and claimed to be a christian..... And my statement is kind of pointless to say that it would be an oxymoron.. But wouldn't that of your statment of the jew against the christian? Simply because Jesus -was- Jewish.

I cant even talk to you.. sorry 17th... Im so sad it hurts my feelings very badly you view deserve comments to you posts but its making me cry. sorry

 

[Avi]

I dont understand how a Jew that believes in God will not believe in their own Torah. He said "You are my people and I am your God" All the covenants He made with them.. The promises He made to them. Its crazy to me that having ALL that from God and rejecting it for any reason.. how do you reason that out? Do you really just believe it wasnt God that said that?

Its very fascinating to me.

Hi Faithfulservant,

I am a Reform Jew. That means that my ideas are different from traditional Jewish beliefs.

First, I would say that I do believe in G-d, but I am not sure that means the same thing to you as it does to me. Eventhough I was born Jewish, it was really only the last 2-3 years that I have been giving considerable thought to the meaning of G-d and Judaism. The best description that I have seen for G-d is pantheistic or panentheistic. By the way, I think this view is very consistent, even with traditional Judaism.

Also, your comment: "how a Jew that believes in God will not believe in their own Torah", I think the Torah is a great work. However, I do not believe in miracles and I do not believe in the divine giving of Torah. My world views are seen through the perspective of my scientific and engineering background. On the other hand, I do think the moral and ethical lessons of the Torah are great ones.

As I mentioned, the idea of Chosen-ness is rejected by Reconstruction Judaism. It seems to me that you look at chosen-ness as a great gift that I am rejecting. I look at choseness as an identifier that has been used throughout history to persecute Jews. I think all people are special. In my opinion, that is what we should focus on.

So, yes, I do not believe that G-d said the Jews are chosen. I do not believe in an anthorpomorphic G-d, so I do not believe he/she spoke to us.

Faithfulservent, I sense that you have a deep respect for Judaism, and I very much appreciate that view. I also respect your beliefs as a Conservative Christian.

I hope that interfaith dialogue will allow us to build a level of understanding, respect and appreciation that hatred and violence between religions will be eliminated

 

[Avi]

l did not insinuate whatever you may think, but the fact is that jews in Israel are considered by some worthy of hate, whether you accept that or not. The state of Israel could have been an ideal society, incorporating all of the wisdom it has accumulated in the hardships endured over hundreds of years but instead took a more elitist route and so is still suffering within its borders.

peace out

Nativeastral, I am also a little confused by your comment.

You say that "Jews in Israel are considered by some worthy of hate". Are you referring to the Israel / Palestian issues ? If you are, I think your comment is rather partial and one-sided. Wouldn't it be more objective to say that "both sides are to blame" ?

Also, even if I were to accept your assumption, which seems to be that they have handled the Israel / Palestinian issue properly, isn't it the leaders of Israel that are to blame ? Do you think it is fair to blame all the Israeli citizens for political decisions that their leaders make ?

The reason that I am responding to your comment is because all of the otehr comments that you have written seem very reasonable to me. So I am wondering if this on needs some re-thinking ???

 

[17th Angel]

I, don't understand? I have no intention to hurt or make someone cry, and if it -really- does make you cry, then I am very sorry. I am just attempting to look at it from anothers view point... How about I rephrase the post then perhaps you will be able to reply? Judaism and christianity, are two very different religions I feel, Sure one comes from the other, but it isn't the same religion. They both have different views, values, rituals, beliefs..

Looking at it from a different angle, Some jews may look to christians as deserters of sorts, many jews moved away from their traditions and faith to follow another and his new ways.. And for this some dislike/disagree/whatever with christians... Now I just don't think that is an oxymoron as that is a meaning of contradiction, they stuck to their faith and traditions while others were swayed from them...

That any better? :/

AVI: Israel-Palestine... Both to blame? Uhm.... lol, explain?

 

[Tao_Equus]

You say that "Jews in Israel are considered by some worthy of hate". Are you referring to the Israel / Palestian issues ? If you are, I think your comment is rather partial and one-sided. Wouldn't it be more objective to say that "both sides are to blame" ?

There is blame on both sides. But that is not the same as saying both sides are to blame. At the turn of this year popular Israeli support for what was one of the most sickening violations of a people witnessed in decades was sky high. The support was just as solid in Jewish communities in the US and UK. As long as Jews support the excesses of their US controlled hegemony in gross violations of human rights they are just stoking up anti-Jewish sentiment. As WW2 and the holocaust slide out of living memory Jews will no longer be able to play that sympathy card and will be judged by their actions today. And to me they are what have always mattered. I think time will prove that Israel, and the millions of Jews that support its excesses, have made a monumental mistake. One that will haunt them far greater than the holocaust. You do not piss in your own back yard.

 

[nativeastral]

hi Avi

l cannot add much more to tao's comment as l think he is more up on recent history in the middle east than l am. It is not my view that l am stating but an overall assumption over here at least that the Jews there have treated Palestinians worse than the other way round...one word ...Gaza....could you live there? is it right?

Of course there are some who 'hate' muslims more and if they are inclined to christianity, however tenuously, then they have more of an 'affection' for the 'plight' of the Jews in that they are 'surrounded' by Muslims and of course Allah is not the same G#d, such is the simplified ignorance of the general populace. Personally l was trying to be objective when answering the OP on 'why some hate the Jewish people'; l never use the word hate for people, its too extreme a word for me and l only use it for describing how l 'hate' certain foods!

Long long ago l was up on the middle east scenario and even considered going to work on a kibbutz as l thought it a worthy venture, a communal agricultural undertaking to satisfy and share with all the inhabitants but then l found out that the 'local indigenous' population were being shunted out behind HUGE walls and grants were being given for Ayisha[?], for Jews to return to their homeland displacing said inhabitants. [look at the Buber article in existentialism for his thought on an ideal society].

My view is that the other world powers are as much to blame in condoning/supporting the situation there. After watching the Iran documentary from pre shah onwards up to the present moment the shenanigans of the US/UK is symptomatic of all that is deceitful in politics, which is not about protecting the public and being fair, but of power over land and resources.

Really l am just saddened by the situation there as entangled as it is in too much bloody history; the martyr mindset of certain Muslims will not go away so Israelis will always be having to be extremely defensive, no way for a nation to live in peace All wars reverberate in this now extremely small pond of ours, and moves to alleviate and make truce is much too slow.

 

[nativeastral]

Also, even if I were to accept your assumption, which seems to be that they have handled the Israel / Palestinian issue properly, isn't it the leaders of Israel that are to blame ? Do you think it is fair to blame all the Israeli citizens for political decisions that their leaders make ?

Of course l blame the leaders Avi, perhaps l should have been more exact but pedantic is not my middle name! l hope that the Israelis like Iran publically demonstrate that they are fed up with the status quo an move towards a more peaceable situation within its borders and with its neighbours cos no one is going away [except for maybe the Jews there that can afford to emigrate out of a war zone].

 

[shawn]

can you elaborate on that last line shawn?

If you wish to open another thread on the topic, certainly.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I, don't understand? I have no intention to hurt or make someone cry, and if it -really- does make you cry, then I am very sorry. I am just attempting to look at it from anothers view point... How about I rephrase the post then perhaps you will be able to reply? Judaism and christianity, are two very different religions I feel, Sure one comes from the other, but it isn't the same religion. They both have different views, values, rituals, beliefs..

Looking at it from a different angle, Some jews may look to christians as deserters of sorts, many jews moved away from their traditions and faith to follow another and his new ways.. And for this some dislike/disagree/whatever with christians... Now I just don't think that is an oxymoron as that is a meaning of contradiction, they stuck to their faith and traditions while others were swayed from them...

That any better? :/

AVI: Israel-Palestine... Both to blame? Uhm.... lol, explain?

I know this is getting redundant but "my kind" of Christians believe this... The term Christianity was made into effect after Jesus ascended.. They were still Jews with the knowledge that they were witnessing the fulfillment of Judaism and the law through Jesus Christ.. since Jesus was the Messiah to the Jews.. and only opened the Way to the gentiles because the Jews missed their first visitation and hardened their hearts towards their Messiah and their God... but that had to happen so that Gods words to Abraham that all the peoples would be blessed through them would come to pass. We are not Jewish but Jesus was Jewish and a practicing Jew and "my kind" of Christian perceive Judiasm to be the Father faith of our own. We believe that God will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel. We believe that they are still to inherit the earth and that Gods promises are forever. We also believe that they are the apple of Gods eye and that a Christian that has anger in their heart towards His chosen people are not aligning themselves in the will of God. God is very clear on His intentions and purposes for them.

So I STILL say that to "my kind" of Christian... a Jew hating Christian is an oxymoron.

 

[shawn]

God is very clear on His intentions and purposes for them.

LOL
That is so subject to interpretation.
Survey all the Jewish and all the christians and you will find no unity whatsoever in either camp as to what God's intentions or purposes are.
The only thing that is a common thread is the number of schisms/factions.
All with their own interpretation.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Faithfulservant,

I am a Reform Jew. That means that my ideas are different from traditional Jewish beliefs.

First, I would say that I do believe in G-d, but I am not sure that means the same thing to you as it does to me. Eventhough I was born Jewish, it was really only the last 2-3 years that I have been giving considerable thought to the meaning of G-d and Judaism. The best description that I have seen for G-d is pantheistic or panentheistic. By the way, I think this view is very consistent, even with traditional Judaism.

Also, your comment: "how a Jew that believes in God will not believe in their own Torah", I think the Torah is a great work. However, I do not believe in miracles and I do not believe in the divine giving of Torah. My world views are seen through the perspective of my scientific and engineering background. On the other hand, I do think the moral and ethical lessons of the Torah are great ones.

As I mentioned, the idea of Chosen-ness is rejected by Reconstruction Judaism. It seems to me that you look at chosen-ness as a great gift that I am rejecting. I look at choseness as an identifier that has been used throughout history to persecute Jews. I think all people are special. In my opinion, that is what we should focus on.

So, yes, I do not believe that G-d said the Jews are chosen. I do not believe in an anthorpomorphic G-d, so I do not believe he/she spoke to us.

Faithfulservent, I sense that you have a deep respect for Judaism, and I very much appreciate that view. I also respect your beliefs as a Conservative Christian.

I hope that interfaith dialogue will allow us to build a level of understanding, respect and appreciation that hatred and violence between religions will be eliminated

I respect you as a very nice person with more than their fair share of intelligence and in the matter of faith I think might be a hindrance... but I see this whole thing you believe is simply a lack of faith in the unknown.

Yes I am seriously up Jews butts as far as that respect thing goes.

They all think Im a looney and a nincompoop. Thats ok though.

 

[wil]

So I STILL say that to "my kind" of Christian... a Jew hating Christian is an oxymoron.

Namaste FS,

See there yet again another thing we have in common.

Of course "my kinda" Christian thinks that hating anyone, any religion, any race, any nationality, any sexual orientation is an oxymoron.

Love your neighbor as yourself and love your enemies...that just don't leave anyone out.