Ok this is why I say this everytime...
I am speaking as a bible-believing Christian that believes the bible is God-breathed and infalliable. I am not speaking for any other Christian or Jew.
Sorry CZ..
If I could make it as a signature I would..
Why some hate the Jewish people?
- Thread starter Amica
- Start date
Ok this is why I say this everytime...
I am speaking as a bible-believing Christian that believes the bible is God-breathed and infalliable. I am not speaking for any other Christian or Jew.
Sorry CZ..
If I could make it as a signature I would..
shawn
Well-Known Member
I am sorry to hear that.I have heard that the condition is contagious as well.
sorry, just kidding around.
I am sure you are literally a very nice person.
I have heard that the condition is contagious as well.
sorry, just kidding around.
I am sure you are literally a very nice person.
lol contagious... very true.. Scared much?
shawn
Well-Known Member
Nope, I am immune as I have already had that illness and have quite recovered from it now.
Nope, I am immune as I have already had that illness and have quite recovered from it now.
See once you really get it.. you cant get rid of it. I think you just think you had it.
shawn
Well-Known Member
Nope, I had it really bad.
Went to bible college, did street ministry, was a youth pastor in the Baptist church I was part of, etc.
Took about 10 years to get past all that.
Jesus is a placebo.
Went to bible college, did street ministry, was a youth pastor in the Baptist church I was part of, etc.
Took about 10 years to get past all that.
Jesus is a placebo.
none of that matters... you can work and work and work and it have nothing to do with Jesus Christ.
I still say you never had it.
You cant lose your salvation but you also cannot deny Jesus and be truly saved.
my disclaimer
"I am speaking as a bible-believing Christian that believes the bible is God-breathed and infalliable. I am not speaking for any other Christian or Jew."
shawn
Well-Known Member
That is very judgmental of you.
I was a real true believer, but several eye-opening experiences caused me to realize the mistakes which are contained in christianity.
for example:
You don't need to be saved as you are not d@mned.
That is very judgmental of you.
I was a real true believer, but several eye-opening experiences caused me to realize the mistakes which are contained in christianity.
for example:
You don't need to be saved as you are not d@mned.
We are called to be fruit inspecters... Judge not lest ye be judged the word judged used in the greek means judging to condemn... Im not judging to condemn.. but I am certainly judging to identify..its all in the greek my friend.
Im sure you are familiar with the parable of the sower if you went to bible college... Just in case here it is...
this is why I say what I say about your not getting it.
shawn
Well-Known Member
Oh I get it all right.
I see you are still wandering around in the bushes however.
I see you are still wandering around in the bushes however.
sorry that went way over my head.. I think it was a veiled insult. Thats ok though.. I want you to know that Ive said a prayer for you and thats the most important thing. We are to pray about everything.. and I do.
Im sleepy I have to go now.. Have a good night Shawn.
shawn
Well-Known Member
Not an insult, I try to avoid being that way,.... just an observation is all.
g'nite.
g'nite.
Hi Nativeastral, I do not think one needs to be an expert on Middle East history or policy to have an opinion. I am not an expert either, but some issues are obvious. No, I would not like to live in Gaza or the West Bank or Golan. These are war zones.
During the past 60 years, the Israeli's have been in power in Israel, and there are cases which can be easily cited where they have abused that power. This is really no surprise, it is the history of the Middle East and the history of humanity. I do not approve of it. But lets consider the past 2,000 years. I think we can say the opposite was true during that time. The Jews were oppressed and nearly killed off or exiled. So shouldn't we have compassion for both sides ?
That is right. Many blame Britain for the Balfour, I do not know your opinion about that ? But I personally think, eventhough there were many problems as a result of Balfour, that it was a positive step. It enabled the ultimate formation of Israel.
Really l am just saddened by the situation there as entangled as it is in too much bloody history; the martyr mindset of certain Muslims will not go away so Israelis will always be having to be extremely defensive, no way for a nation to live in peace
I think you are being quite moderate in this paragraph, and I agree.
As I have said on several posts, I think both sides have made mistakes and need to look critically at their positions. It is not a simple problem of one side is wrong and the other right.
In fact, with the rise of Iran on the international scene, they are going to be playing an important role in future Middle East politics. I hope a consensus of moderates will take place to prevent future wars and unnecessary bloodshed.
nativeastral
fluffy future
Yes l hope too that compassion and moderation will prevail in the Middle east and Iran will be a major factor, l just hope integrity will be shown and acted upon by all sides, though forgiveness doesn't seem to be so easy even amongst the religious unfortunately. Looking out info on Gaza to remind me of the situation brought to the fore the fact that the Palestinian population will outnumber Israelis soon and within Israel itself there has been problems with Neo Nazis from Russia [who increased the population by 20%] which seems rather crazy no?
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
well, you are entitled to whatever view of history you like, but i will nonetheless point out that the opinion that the jews are to blame for our own historical misfortunes is a view shared only by those with the most simplistic view of sin and punishment and those who simply dislike jews and are interested in rationalising their prejudice. you, for example, seem to think that jewish dietary laws are a reason for racism. i hope this is not the case.nativeastral said:
firstly, *everyone* stuck together in roman society, not just us. i don't notice you having a go at the greeks or the egpytians or the britons or the gauls. secondly, roman society was a highly unpleasant, violent, immoral place and frankly i don't think you'd have wanted to mix with them either. thirdly, we had our own country back then, so if living there is what you mean by sticking together, again, the same could be said of the other nations i mentioned above. not only that, but there was also a pretty pervasive class system. and fourthly, you seemed anxious to bring in "now", so i hardly think i can be blamed for pointing out the broadness of your dislike.
that is not in dispute. what you appear to be saying, however, is that we sought this separation (and, by direct implication continue to do so) from mediaeval christian and islamic society because of our own prejudices and thereby made ourselves unpopular. this is utter bilge. if you are not saying that, then please make it clear, but i fail to see how i could be misunderstanding you.
i am not disputing that. the question is whether they deserve it or not, or whether they deserve quite as much. that is a complex issue which raises enormous passions and not one which we can discuss in this kind of manner, particularly when your starting point appears to be "they are asking for it".
that would have only happened if the jewish people had been united, not fragmented as it was and is. call me mr cynical, but i think it is a bit much to expect an ideal society to emerge from persecuted refugees, genocide survivors, euro-chauvinist socialist utopians, capitalist entrepreneurs, atheists and the ultra-religious. and that is *without* the conflict situation! you sound like you're blaming the israelis for not being able to overcome the weight of their history whilst refusing to acknowledge the difficulties that they have faced from the beginning. and, more to the point, i think you could make the exact same point about the french, american and indeed cuban and chinese revolutions!
that was *bathos*. remember, we talked about that?Tao_Equus said:
because we were talking about mediaeval europe. to bring israel into it is pure whataboutery.
nope. there are more in america.
now, whilst i am sad to concede that support for democracy and human rights falls far below what i would expect, there is still a significant part of the population that still strongly supports these things. you sound like you're suggesting that all israelis hate palestinians and nothing could be further from the truth.
what makes you think you can use that sort of tone on this website? moderate yourself or you will get moderated.
i am trying to address what i saw as frankly quite prejudiced comments about jews in the middle ages, which are now being justified by reference to modern israel, as if that's relevant. sad to say, some people will hide behind the situation in the middle east to cloak what are otherwise revealed to be unacceptable attitudes. want to have a go at jews? no problem, as long as you link it to israel, you can say what you like. well, if i think that might be happening, i'm going to call it. and you know, in the last six months, i've been right about it several times. look at this:
yes, because everyone knows that jews have lots of money, right? we'll just bail when the going gets tough, right? sheesh. can you even hear yourself?nativeastral said:
look, i am not trying to justify everything that went on but it didn't happen in a vacuum. could you live in sderot? is that right? there are decades of conflict here and this is simply the latest in a long series of bad calls leading to bloodshed.
the word is "aliyah" and financial support for it has been a prime concern of israel since before its inception - but aliyah was NOT designed to be used as a tool for displacing local populations. it is the settlement enterprise that has coopted it as it has coopted so many parts of the israeli body politic - but i hope and pray that this will soon come to an end. it is also interesting that you say "return to their homeland" but then call the palestinians "local indigenous" - what of the jews? are we not indigenous to the region? what about the more than 50% of the israeli population that is not from europe, but from the islamic world? are they "indigenous"? go and look at palestinian genetics and arabic dialect - you will find that the dividing line between us and them is pretty slim.
yes - and i hope you are including russia and china in that, you seem to recognise that it will also be necessary to take account of the regional superpowers of saudi arabia, egypt and iran.
the entire russian aliyah was not made up of neo-nazis, nativeastral. there were a couple of kids involved and the universal reaction was "how stupid would you have to be to do something like that in a country full of jews?". the "demographic timebomb" you mention (as it is referred to by some right-wing israelis) was the cause of sharon and others encouraging this aliyah - although, truth be told, russian jewry had been trying to get the hell out for decades. now, the thing is about the russians is that they are, well, quite russian in their attitudes - not at all religious, pretty racist and with the typical russian attitude to human rights ("is load of rubbish for pantywaist european that never have to queue for ticket for tractor factory open day"), which has given the right wing a shot in the arm as sharon intended. the thing is, it has kind of backfired on the settlement enterprise - not because the russians are more peaceloving, they're not - but because they aren't religious and therefore won't bend over backwards to accommodate the religious fanatics that run the settler lobby. there is far more likelihood for them to compromise than the "national-religious" camp. i despise lieberman - i think he's a corrupt, racist scumbag. however, he is far more likely to make a deal than the likes of effi eitam or benny begin would be.
there, you see - i've been sucked into talking about the peace process when we were really talking about something entirely different. bloody hellfire.
b'shalom
bananabrain
nativeastral
fluffy future
well, you are entitled to whatever view of history you like, but i will nonetheless point out that the opinion that the jews are to blame for our own historical misfortunes is a view shared only by those with the most simplistic view of sin and punishment and those who simply dislike jews and are interested in rationalising their prejudice. you, for example, seem to think that jewish dietary laws are a reason for racism. i hope this is not the case.
----------> the OP asked why some people hate the jewish people; l gave reasons why that may be so and why the jewish ways may have had a part to play in this; as you yourself keep stating it is not always one sided [or maybe it was Avi saying that], in any case l do feel you are coming across as though l personally hate Jews which is not the case, l purely gave reasons, as other folk here did, why that may be so. The only ones l know who say they 'don't like' Jews are lapsed Catholics who are prejudiced but even they 'get on' with Jews who are neighbours so its just a stereotypical thing; l have never been exposed to religious nor ethnic bigotry where l come from, mainly because of lack of other ethnicities here until the oil boom in the 70's; only chinese folk have been settled here earlier.
firstly, *everyone* stuck together in roman society, not just us. i don't notice you having a go at the greeks or the egpytians or the britons or the gauls. secondly, roman society was a highly unpleasant, violent, immoral place and frankly i don't think you'd have wanted to mix with them either. thirdly, we had our own country back then, so if living there is what you mean by sticking together, again, the same could be said of the other nations i mentioned above. not only that, but there was also a pretty pervasive class system. and fourthly, you seemed anxious to bring in "now", so i hardly think i can be blamed for pointing out the broadness of your dislike.
------------> why should l mention other tribes in a thread specifically asking about 'why some hate the Jewish people' which btw was not about any particular era or any domain, cultural or political, which l do not think can be separated so easily anyway. Then, now, the OP did not specify BB.
that is not in dispute. what you appear to be saying, however, is that we sought this separation (and, by direct implication continue to do so) from mediaeval christian and islamic society because of our own prejudices and thereby made ourselves unpopular. this is utter bilge. if you are not saying that, then please make it clear, but i fail to see how i could be misunderstanding you.
-----------> you seem to be thinking its everyone else's fault; wish life was that simple eh?
i am not disputing that. the question is whether they deserve it or not, or whether they deserve quite as much. that is a complex issue which raises enormous passions and not one which we can discuss in this kind of manner, particularly when your starting point appears to be "they are asking for it".
------------> yes it raises enormous passions, enough to make me not even participate in any discussion concerning a whiff of anything negative about judaism whatsover. My words were 'in a way they set themselves up for it'; why? because l know human behaviour and mob psychology and that side of human nature l can say l despise. And of course no one deserves to be treated inhumanely, hence my reasons for mentioning present day Israel and the overly populated and sub human conditions there in Gaza and the West Bank. l'm for the common man.
that would have only happened if the jewish people had been united, not fragmented as it was and is. call me mr cynical, but i think it is a bit much to expect an ideal society to emerge from persecuted refugees, genocide survivors, euro-chauvinist socialist utopians, capitalist entrepreneurs, atheists and the ultra-religious. and that is *without* the conflict situation! you sound like you're blaming the israelis for not being able to overcome the weight of their history whilst refusing to acknowledge the difficulties that they have faced from the beginning. and, more to the point, i think you could make the exact same point about the french, american and indeed cuban and chinese revolutions!
----------> no these are completely different, they did not return after being exiled, and they were sorting out things that were already interior. Israel has ousted many many common folk [not terrorists, not antisemiticbut certainly anti zionists if that means elitist and supremist and chucking you off your land that youve been on for more than 300 years and were probably jewish anyways before being 'forced' to convert to keep the land; cant you see the craziness of it all?
because we were talking about mediaeval europe. to bring israel into it is pure whataboutery.
-------> as previous, there was no boundries to this thread; l gave suggestions why then and now it may be so [just to participate]
--------> please, don't bring the US into this, haha
i am trying to address what i saw as frankly quite prejudiced comments about jews in the middle ages, which are now being justified by reference to modern israel, as if that's relevant. sad to say, some people will hide behind the situation in the middle east to cloak what are otherwise revealed to be unacceptable attitudes. want to have a go at jews? no problem, as long as you link it to israel, you can say what you like. well, if i think that might be happening, i'm going to call it. and you know, in the last six months, i've been right about it several times. look at this:
-----------> look, are you denying the atrocious behaviour that was meted out to the Jews historically? No? so why are you saying these comments are prejudiced? l was trying to give explanations
yes, because everyone knows that jews have lots of money, right? we'll just bail when the going gets tough, right? sheesh. can you even hear yourself?
--------> again you show your prejudices if you want to play that game; l mentioned that as compared to destitute palestinians that all
look, i am not trying to justify everything that went on but it didn't happen in a vacuum. could you live in sderot? is that right? there are decades of conflict here and this is simply the latest in a long series of bad calls leading to bloodshed.
----------> sometimes you come across as if you are justifying and that Jews are lily white innocents, get a grip..mine was an overall assumption according to death rates more than anything else.
the word is "aliyah" and financial support for it has been a prime concern of israel since before its inception - but aliyah was NOT designed to be used as a tool for displacing local populations. it is the settlement enterprise that has coopted it as it has coopted so many parts of the israeli body politic - but i hope and pray that this will soon come to an end. it is also interesting that you say "return to their homeland" but then call the palestinians "local indigenous" - what of the jews? are we not indigenous to the region? what about the more than 50% of the israeli population that is not from europe, but from the islamic world? are they "indigenous"? go and look at palestinian genetics and arabic dialect - you will find that the dividing line between us and them is pretty slim.
---------> exactly, why l posted that youtube vid. But the fact is it was used to displace and now we have this situation. Perhaps all the irish and scottish that were cleared off their crofts and sent off to Nova Scotia should be given back their ancestral home and chuck out the folk who have been there since the 1800's, nuts eh?
yes - and i hope you are including russia and china in that, you seem to recognise that it will also be necessary to take account of the regional superpowers of saudi arabia, egypt and iran.
--------> perhaps l should have emphasised that more BB then maybe l wouldn't have been at the end of your acidic wrath, as one youtube comment said 'Isarel is the US haemorrhoid in the Middle East' [don't shoot the messenger but l chuckled!].
the entire russian aliyah was not made up of neo-nazis, nativeastral. there were a couple of kids involved and the universal reaction was "how stupid would you have to be to do something like that in a country full of jews?". the "demographic timebomb" you mention (as it is referred to by some right-wing israelis) was the cause of sharon and others encouraging this aliyah - although, truth be told, russian jewry had been trying to get the hell out for decades. now, the thing is about the russians is that they are, well, quite russian in their attitudes - not at all religious, pretty racist and with the typical russian attitude to human rights ("is load of rubbish for pantywaist european that never have to queue for ticket for tractor factory open day"), which has given the right wing a shot in the arm as sharon intended. the thing is, it has kind of backfired on the settlement enterprise - not because the russians are more peaceloving, they're not - but because they aren't religious and therefore won't bend over backwards to accommodate the religious fanatics that run the settler lobby. there is far more likelihood for them to compromise than the "national-religious" camp. i despise lieberman - i think he's a corrupt, racist scumbag. however, he is far more likely to make a deal than the likes of effi eitam or benny begin would be.
---------> l did not imply that but can see why you may have thought that. The point l am making is changes will come within Israel perhaps not for the best either, do things happen for a reason? l just saw some irony there. And you are calling a nation racist? and you depise someone? tut tut, wash your mouth out!
there, you see - i've been sucked into talking about the peace process when we were really talking about something entirely different. bloody hellfire.
-----------> good for you
'shalom
bananabrain
Are there are any threads on the development and intentions of zionism here?
nativeastral
fluffy future
BB l have been reading up on the history of zionism at this site
Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History
The real self-hating Jews: the paradoxical tragedy of extremists- Zionism-Israel Web Log
..which reminds me of the long history previous to WWll which tends to be the starting point for the more naive [inc me].
In any case my suggestions on why did not include the obvious root...that Judaism did not accept either of the 'prophets' of Christianity and Islam and this was why, in the main, they were hated, because integration was therefore impossible in societies where religion is society and society is religion and why separation was inevitable and why that is seen [aka mob psychology] as anomalous and anti the majority. Of course it was fuelled by the story of Jesus' demise and the story of the betrayal of the Jews at Medina, and as l intimated also by the sacred practices observed as well...
To be more balanced and for you not to think that l have no understanding at all of the situation l can see why Israel does not want Muslims in their midst, no minaret wailing 5 times a day, and no paranoia maybe that your neighbour is harbouring a terrorist; and l acknowledge the stubborness of the Palestinians in not agreeing early on suggested partitions, but if it was the other way round l'm sure the Jews would not have given way either [this was influenced by the rise of Arab nationalism].
l think that the reason there has been more sympathy for the Palestinians is the heavy handed military Israeli treatment and obvious financial support from the West. For me it looks like the abused becomed the abuser, and we can say oh well thats the history of humanity and go on about how f### up it all is, but a solution would relieve the whole world not just the crescent, infertile becoming again fertile.
Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History
The real self-hating Jews: the paradoxical tragedy of extremists- Zionism-Israel Web Log
..which reminds me of the long history previous to WWll which tends to be the starting point for the more naive [inc me].
In any case my suggestions on why did not include the obvious root...that Judaism did not accept either of the 'prophets' of Christianity and Islam and this was why, in the main, they were hated, because integration was therefore impossible in societies where religion is society and society is religion and why separation was inevitable and why that is seen [aka mob psychology] as anomalous and anti the majority. Of course it was fuelled by the story of Jesus' demise and the story of the betrayal of the Jews at Medina, and as l intimated also by the sacred practices observed as well...
To be more balanced and for you not to think that l have no understanding at all of the situation l can see why Israel does not want Muslims in their midst, no minaret wailing 5 times a day, and no paranoia maybe that your neighbour is harbouring a terrorist; and l acknowledge the stubborness of the Palestinians in not agreeing early on suggested partitions, but if it was the other way round l'm sure the Jews would not have given way either [this was influenced by the rise of Arab nationalism].
l think that the reason there has been more sympathy for the Palestinians is the heavy handed military Israeli treatment and obvious financial support from the West. For me it looks like the abused becomed the abuser, and we can say oh well thats the history of humanity and go on about how f### up it all is, but a solution would relieve the whole world not just the crescent, infertile becoming again fertile.
Probably, I would guess, for the same reasons that they hate Nazis and similar organizations -- one group claiming they are an elite among the rest and backing it up with militant and oppressive strategies. (chosen people... master race etc.)
If one were to look a bit closer at the metaphoric possibilities, of not only Judaism but of all religions, one might see that the message is, ultimately, universal. This is also a form of monotheism.
It's when this universality ceases to exist that the precursors of so-called holy wars begin to gurgle... along with those of new religions.
If one were to look a bit closer at the metaphoric possibilities, of not only Judaism but of all religions, one might see that the message is, ultimately, universal. This is also a form of monotheism.
It's when this universality ceases to exist that the precursors of so-called holy wars begin to gurgle... along with those of new religions.
Adi, some how your style is reminscent to me of another, past, poster (or perhaps several, now that I think about it).
It is wonderful that you describe yourself as the village idiot.
I do like your avatar though. Are those antlers on your head ? Are you a reindeer ? Or a little moose ?