Re: An Interfaith view
"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name."
This, as I understand it, coincides precisely with the Christian apophatic position.
Again, as I understand it, the author is saying that nothing can be predicated of the Tao, as the Tao surpasses anything that can be said about it, in a superlative manner, to an infinite degree.
Indeed, in the works of St Denys for example, his Divine Names asserts that the Deity is beyond all names, including 'God' (the Greek term 'theos' derives from the verb 'to run' or 'to shine' ... Eriugena comments on this at length); in the Celestial Hierarchy he asserts the deity is beyond all celestial determination; in the Mystical Theology he asserts the Deity cannot be an object of knowledge.
He explains however, that the Divine Names, the Celestial Hierarchies, and the Mystical Theology of the Catholic Tradition are the revealed means by which the Inaccessible can be aspired to; the Unknowable known ... as encompassed in its cataphatic tradition.
My contention is simple: by 'panentheism' we are predicating something of the Deity that 'reduces' the deity to something intelligible and accessible. We are saying that the eternal; Tao can be told, surely?
The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Thus the naming of things is bringing the name forth out of nothing, creatio ex nihilo if you like ... for no thing exists before things exists ... the Tao is not a thing, therefore the Tao is not a thing of things, nor is the Tao a thing in things, nor is the Tao a super-thing of which all things are parts or elements ...
Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
The Tao is free of all desires, for there is no space, no time, no movement, in the Eternal Tao ... so to predicate any order of mutability to the Tao, such as panentheism, surely indicates someone caught up not in the Tao, but in the mystery of manifestation?
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
Yes ... the Tao is not a mystery then, else the Tao would be a mystery unto Itself, but rather manifestation reveals and conceals simultaneously, which is why all forms are veils ... Christian apophatism seeks to penetrate every veil. Denys speaks of the Divine Darkess in poetic fashion.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.
Well here, without commentary from a Tao source, I can only offer my own ... we can know nothing of that Darkness, for what can we know of what we cannot see, what can we know of that which has no 'thing-ness' being beyond all forms ... we lack the faculties to comprehand it, but that Darkness can know Itself in us, and by so doing illuminate our own darkness with its own Dark Radiance, and this is gnosis in the Christian Tradition.
"In Him we live and move and have our being", for sure, but that does not make us Him, nor any part of Him ... but that there is nothing that exists, or can exist, apart from Him.
Thomas
Hi Thomas. My Christian perspective of Taoism identifies
wuji with God, and
taiji with the
Logos, as per the scripture you cited:
"In Him we live and move and have our being", for sure, but that does not make us Him, nor any part of Him ... but that there is nothing that exists, or can exist, apart from Him.
Tao
{The Way} is also seen like water, permeating down through to the lowest places of creation, much like divine grace coming down from God, and returning.
(See Tao Te Ching 25 that I copied into post # 98.) I view this action as analogous to the Holy Spirit in Christianity. Interestingly, this manifests differently in different areas of creation, as is told in one of the
Ten Wings, or the commentary on the
I Ching:
here:
4. Anciently, when the sages made the Yî, it was with the design that (its figures) should be in conformity with the principles underlying the natures (of men and things), and the ordinances (for them) appointed (by Heaven). With this view they exhibited (in them) the way (tao) of heaven, calling (the lines) yin and yang; the way (tao) of earth, calling (them) the weak (or soft) and the strong (or hard); and
the way (tao) of men, under the names of benevolence and righteousness.
However, I like Zhou Dunyi explained it in his
Explanation of the Diagram of the Supreme Ultimate that
I linked to earlier in this thread:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Therefore it is said, 'In representing the Dao of Heaven one uses the terms Yin and Yang, and in representing the Dao of Earth one uses the terms Soft and Hard, while in representing the Dao of Man, one uses the terms Love and Righteousness'.[/FONT]
A sign that man is following the Tao (as I identify with the outward flowing Holy Spirit action explained above)
is his exhibiting Love and Righteousness.
With this wuji, taiji, and "the tao flowing outward like water and returning back," Taoism even has something similar to the trinity, as they are all considered one.
Tao Te Ching 42 (more translations
here)
42
The Tao produced One; One produced Two; Two produced Three;
Three produced All things. All things leave behind them the Obscurity
(out of which they have come), and go forward to embrace the
Brightness (into which they have emerged), while they are harmonised
by the Breath of Vacancy.
What men dislike is to be orphans, to have little virtue, to be as
carriages without naves; and yet these are the designations which
kings and princes use for themselves. So it is that some things are
increased by being diminished, and others are diminished by being
increased.
What other men (thus) teach, I also teach. The violent and strong
do not die their natural death. I will make this the basis of my
teaching.
!!
