"don't touch our trees" ... (the real conflict in Eden)

Penelope

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[highlight]horizon event[/highlight]

To my reading of modern archeology, Eden is not a mythical place. It was a real one.

This place was bounded:
- On the east by the Caspian Ocean.
- On the north by the Caucasus Mountains and by a (then) mammoth freshwater lake (which is, now, an even larger body of water - the saltwater Black Sea).
- On the west and south by the Mediterranean Sea and the prairies of the Fertile Crescent.
The place which is, today, the nation of Turkey.

This Eden existed from about 11,000 years ago (perhaps as early as 14,500 years ago) and lasted until the end of the Flandrian Transgression (the receding of the last ice age and the raising of the oceans to around their current levels), about 6,000 years ago.

The Turkish plain, during this period, contained vast animal herds of numerous variety. And contained a multitude of wild grains, native fruit trees, and natural vegetables. The Turkish plain was a veritable garden for hunter/gatherer (Paleolithic) peoples migrating thru this territory from the north, or from the east, or from the south.

These people moved from place to place, following the herds, knowing the places and times of year when grains and fruits ripen, and can be gathered and eaten. They took only what they needed, to be consumed within the tribe, or only enough extra to use for trade with other tribes. Their superstitions were animistic. That trees and animals have powers which must be mollified. These superstitions helped keep hunter/gatherer peoples from wantonly depleting their (and fellow tribes') food supplies. It was a kind of moral contract with nature. Nature will provide, if you do NOT objectify animals and trees, and thus NOT abuse these entities' 'spirit.' And NOT abuse the laws of the natural world. Good behavior insures survival of the tribe.

But on the plains of Turkey, something began to change.

& & &

This is where it gets interesting to me.

The procedure by which Neolithic transformation happened - as this "rise to Civilization" has been described by traditional archeology - goes something like this:
1. Domestication of plants and animals began.
2. Agriculture became more organized, necessitating more 'workers' and increased social control beyond tribal customs.
3. Cities developed as centers for trade, and Organized Religion was instituted as an overarching social control, to keep individuals marching to the same drumbeat.

But the Postprocessual movement in archeological, from their recent findings from archeological sites across Turkey, have been turning these long-held assumptions upon their head. The 9000 year old sites which they are unearthing in Turkey (and as far away as the Jordan River in Palestine) were cities.

Early cities, some walled and some not. But cities.

And in these cities, a very close look at their surviving art ... reveals that a new kind of Religious Belief was already beginning to replace the old Animistic tribal religions of hunter/gatherers. And careful statistical analysis from these urban latrines ... reveal that virtually the entire diet of these urban dwellers consisted of wild grains and wild fruit and wild animal meat. Only a small fragment of a citizen's diet consisted of domesticated plant or animal.

Pretty cool what archeological forensics can figure out these days, isn't it?
But to explain the findings takes a tad of [highlight]speculation[/highlight].

Each of these cities likely began, originally, as the location of a typical multi-tribal trading rendezvous - seasonal sites where tribes meet to trade surpluses and to socially interact, forge bonds, arrange marriages. Permanent settlements eventually develop at some of these locations. And year-round inhabitants of these trading posts have become specialists in preserving wild food-product past its natural season (e.g. sealed pottery). Or they have become specialists in developing more expertly sharpened tools and weapons for trade with members of wandering tribes, in exchange for food-product. But, at some of these ancient sites, the urban collection of peoples also instigated a change in human consciousness. These urban craftsmen/specialists/traders began to see their world in a new way.

At the same time, some accidental, and disorganized, domestication of this plant or that animal occurred - by this wandering tribe or that one. And some domesticated product began to come thru these trading-centers. But, thinking differently about the world than those they traded with, some of these urban dwellers see potential in domestication. See profit. Some then actively seek to domesticate local plants and animals - in an ORGANZIED way. The hunter/gatherers do not see the point of doing this - because they are looking season to season: they are not looking long term. But the urban entrepreneurs do recognize this long-term potentiality ... because an entirely different mindset has begun to brew in these proto-cities.

& & &

These proto-cities are undergoing a social change. And they are evolving into more organized cities. And this change takes place in their family and communal ritual practices - changes in ritual practices which is keenly reflected in their unearthed art.

These early urban dwellers come to require of themselves ... a new kind of (non-animistic) religion where humans "had dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, over the beasts of the field." To tame wild animals or replant wild seeds ... is a kind of arrogance against Nature. It says nature can be improved. Humans can improve nature.

This is an affront to Animistic tribal belief-structures. It claims that the human spirit is superior to nature-spirits. Claims the human gene is meant to dominate nature. Thus a person's human genetic ancestors are revered. (They are not feared, as ghosts are feared - in the case of hunter/gatherer societies). Here, the graves of one's urban ancestors lie underneath the floorboards of the family house. Each generation rebuilds their family dwelling, literally, on top of the remains of the family's forbearers. Other forms of chromosome-based reverential rituals develop. This is evidenced by early Neolithic urban art. No hunter/gatherer cartoon drawings of hunters chasing their prey - but new rituals connecting the idea of death to the idea of the human face. The literal human being as the supreme image.

Death ... is no longer part of nature's cycles ...

Death becomes emblematic of family (genetic) continuity. Building on the past. Honoring the past but seeing the distant (multi-generational) future, up ahead. (A promised future. A nationhood.)

This I find to be unmistakably crucial.

& & &

The future is a concept which cannot be found within animistic hunter/gatherer mindsets.

Once people have a belief-structure in place which cleanly conceptualizes the relationship between their past and their future (not living in a hunter/gatherer's eternal, if seasonal, 'present') ... then a mindset exists to - in an increasingly conscious way - domesticate the plants and animals in their locality. Domesticating a plant or animal is no longer a lucky accident. (Those who breed new stains of domesticated plants and animals have concepts which now understand something about gene-splicing - about breeding and crossbreeding of genes. About changing nature. About "improving" nature.) The act of domestication becomes, increasingly, a conscious social endeavor.

& & &

Compared with other locales on the planet, during the Neolithic era, a widely disproportionate amount of the earliest human domestication of plants and animals had come from the Turkish plain (domestication of plants and animals was slower to develop elsewhere). And as these Turkish cities became self-confident in their new world view, they inevitably would come into some conflict with the migratory hunter/gatherers who had, once, been their suppliers.

Now, these wandering peoples, these Paleolithic throwbacks, were likely seen - by the Neolithic city-dwellers - as pilferers of domesticated herd-animals and of domesticated orchards and fields of grain. Not quite thieves - but seen by the urban-dwellers as mindless like children.

Incognizant of the 'new morality.'

'Us city-dwellers' have to teach these wandering children to see the difference between wild animals and domesticated beasts of the field, the difference between wild fruit trees & grains and domesticated fruit trees & grain-crops. The wild ones are FREE - and fair game for all. The domesticated ones are OUR PROPERTY.

And, as these cities become increasingly powerful, able to sustain larger and larger populations with their domesticated surpluses, they eventually obtain the power to lay down the law:

"DON'T TOUCH OUR TREES."

& & &

Whatever morality tale you think you read in Genesis 2 of the Bible ...

It seems to me ...

Where Eden is concerned, THIS morality tale is the only one which is definitively true.
 
Hi there Penelope and welcome back, we missed you :). I like your new avatar ;).

As usual, you get a 10 for creativity. But you forgot to give us your reference list again (haha, didn't the teacher always criticize the best kid in the class for bad punctuation ;)). I think we can guess you dredged this out of one of your old Freudian or Jungian class notes from your days at Vasser :)rolleyes:).

As far as your hypothesis goes, it is not a bad one at that. I do not think we give as much thought to the evolution of morality and ethics as we probably should, and your notion is rather clever, after all. By the way, have you read "Ethics of Our Fathers" ? Any Greek ethics ? The Islamic School ?

By the by, I do not recall your telling us, are you a theist or an atheist ?

Incidentally, Penelope, I think it might be interesting to explore your psychological underpinnings. Do you paint ? :)
 
Did you see the recent article about the ancient nation of the Nazca? Their civilization likely failed, because they logged too many trees. South America, about 1000 years ago.
 
heck, now what do I do....sinned again....I this is fourth site I've logged in this morning....any ancient forgiveness?

Is it a global warming thing?
 
this looks like it could be a good discussion.

These early urban dwellers come to require of themselves ... a new kind of (non-animistic) religion where humans "had dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, over the beasts of the field."
if you think that sentiment is a) well-translated or b) clear and simple, you should probably think again. start here, with this excellent essay:

The Human Place in Nature - New Vilna Review

it outlines the fallacy you are basing your entire line of argument on if you want to blame the Torah for what is, at bottom, a consequence of human evolution and development. this is a more comprehensive "big picture" piece on how this stuff is more generally understood:

hazon :: Judaism And The Environment 101

To tame wild animals or replant wild seeds ... is a kind of arrogance against Nature. It says nature can be improved. Humans can improve nature.
look, there's a reason you wear clothes, eat cooked food and have, say, internet access. that is because humans can "improve" (if that's the word) nature. however, the arrogance is in the eye of the beholder. there's an arrogant way to do it - but that's not the only way. which do you prefer, raw grains or bread? is it "arrogant" to prefer bread?

other than that, as avi says, 10 for creativity, but i wish you'd actually engage with the sources concerned rather than assume you've understood everything there is to understand about them and how best to shoehorn them into your hypothesis.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Hi there Penelope and welcome back, we missed you :). I like your new avatar ;).
As usual, you get a 10 for creativity. But you forgot to give us your reference list again ...
I do not think we give as much thought to the evolution of morality and ethics as we probably should ...
:)
Hi Avi.

Friend, who illustrated a couple of my online stories over the summer, did the avatar for me.

Sorry about the lack of references. Bad habit.
But also computer problems.
(Old desktop computer died, 2-year-old laptop's motherboard is going. Otherwise, could have given you 20 saved links.)

I see the emergence of those small cities upon the Turkish plain ... as deeply significant, as an horizon event in human development. This event does not happen overnight. But, as this does, everything changes.
(For good or ill, everything changes. There is no going back.)

And religion does not follow in the wake of this change. Religion leads the way.

This realization shocks me a bit. Organized religion may retard significant social change in multiple ways. But I am thinking ...
That secular mindsets cannot produce an horizon event.

That something is missing there.

There is some kind of deep solemn truth, and self-assurance, that it takes to facilitate an horizon event ...
An utter leap of faith ...
Across to a place where no reasonable secular person would ever dare step.

It is a gene we humans have inside us.

I know it is there. But I am afraid to access it. Because I know it ...
Will change everything.

It will ... change ... everything.
 
Avi,

Should you (or others) take a hard-edged interest in these Turkish archeological discoveries, a good place to dive into the subject is at Catalhoyuk. This is probably the largest and best preserved Neolithic site, anywhere. It's located in south-central Turkey.

Here is the intellectually hardcore (oft-quoted) text:
The Leopard's Tale: Revealing the Mysteries of Catalhoyuk (2006) by Ian Hodder.

Here is a more popular text, for the general reader:
The Goddess and the Bull. Catalhoyuk: An Archaeological Journey to the Dawn of Civilization (2004) by Michael Balter. With illustrations by John-Gordon Swogger. Free Press, New York.

Or take the Wikipedia shortcut: Catalhoyuk - Wikipedia.

You'll also want to check out Gobekli Tepe - Wikipedia and Nevali Cori - Wikipedia. Fascinating stuff!

But do a little Searching, online. I found some better descriptions of these sites and other Turkish Neolithic sites, elsewhere online.
(Lost those links. Sorry for making you work. The fragility of electronic technology.)

& & &

{Note: Some of the flakier authors will make the claim that this archeological site or that ancient dig must certainly be the original Garden of Eden. You must take their amateur arguments - as you should mine - with a grain of salt. Such arguments tend to trivialize the science - trivialize these extraordinarily fascinating discovers in human prehistory.}

& & &

To get flakey again:

Another good claim for the original Garden of Eden ... is the pre-Flandrian Transgression (pre-5000bce) Persian Gulf (which, 7000 years ago, was a great and extraordinarily-rich river valley). The Ubaid people, who first planted grain and built cities in the Tigris-Euphrates delta, witnessed the disappearance of this valley (one meter every ten years) beneath the rising ocean. They referred to this one-time valley in their mythology (echoed in later in Sumerian lore) as Dilmun - or Paradise. As ... the Garden of Eden.

& & &

[highlight]speculation[/highlight]

The Turkish connection to Genesis 2 is actually a tad more substantial ... than my inferential connection, in the original post above, would suggest.

The origin of many Creation tales - like the Garden of Eden story - yes, may have originated with the Ubaid Culture (5300-4100bce) which preceded Sumerian Culture in the Tigris-Euphrates delta. The origins of Ubaid culture and Sumerian culture appear to stem from the Samarra culture of northern Mesopotamia - at the southern fringes of the eastern Turkish Plain. Ubaid culture brought hardy grains and sophisticated pottery with them to the Tigris-Euphrates delta, and developed a major trading network throughout the region. Sumerian culture brought, well ...

Civilization as we know it (high degree of social organization, writing, arithmetic, astronomy, historic record-keeping, accountant ledgers, pottery, the wheel, the plow, the arch, forged-metal, food and water storage, sanitation, irrigation, etc). Sumerian culture arrived first in the Tigris-Euphrates delta sometime prior to 4100bce. Sumerian Creation Tales no doubt permeated the Middle East alongside its pottery during the Uruk Period (4100-2900bce), well before Abraham's time (1750bce). But coming from Ur in the Tigris-Euphrates delta, Abraham's clan was likely culturally saturated with these Creation Tales.

& & &

The Tigris and Euphrates rivers each take a long diverse course till they join, just north of the Persian Gulf in present-day Iraq. But the head-waters of each river is, coincidentally, just a short distance from each other, in the mountains of eastern Turkey. There is a bowl-shaped valley there, and several (once-great) rivers flow out of that region, to empty into the Black and Caspian seas. (Sometime before 4000bce, what now is the salt-water Black Sea, was then a massive fresh-water lake, with a shoreline kilometers north of where it is now.)

Not only could two of these north-flowing rivers be the Pishon and the Gihon of Genesis 2, but the bowl valley - ringed by mountains - could be the mythic Shangri-La, the original Garden of Eden, from the storytelling of Samarra peoples.

Had the Samarra people been fated to originate from the western Turkish Plain, instead, they would have told different stories naming different places when they arrived in the Tigris-Euphrates delta. The domestication of plants and animals certainly began at many separate locations in Turkey. Not in one valley, alone. But the Samarra people did understand the significance of domestication of plants and animals. And that one particular highly-productive valley - the legendary Eden from their lore - was the valley they knew.
 
A very interesting discussion - have you read "Legend" by David Rohl? It does exactly what you're discussing here - identify a physical place using historical and archaeological clues - and if I remember properly, places it someone around the Zagros mountains in Turkey, close to the source of the Tigris & Euphrates. (?)

A long time since I read the book, though, so can't recall the details clearly - however, was certainly very interesting, even when read with the presumption that at least some of the associations and conclusions would be wrong from the start.
 
Penelope said:
This [horizon] event does not happen overnight. But, as this does, everything changes.
interesting. for myself, i believe horizon events are rare things - a "change in the wind" in society is rarely down to one person. moses, jesus, lao-tze, confucius, muhammad, alexander, constantine, luther, spinoza, guru nanak, napoleon, einstein, darwin, marx, hitler, gandhi, stalin, mao, mandela - none of these people, good or evil, arose from a vacuum; all of them were products of their environments and required people before and after them to make them significant figures.

(For good or ill, everything changes. There is no going back.)
this is a very C19th point of view - societies can regress, they move backwards and forwards, up and down - i think you'd find spiral dynamics extremely interesting in this regard, you appear to be describing the move from "purple" to "red/blue" vMemes.

And religion does not follow in the wake of this change. Religion leads the way.
sometimes. perhaps, on this occasion. religion is sometimes a force for good, sometimes for bad, sometimes for change, sometimes for stability - it is impossible to make categorical statements about it.

But I am thinking ...That secular mindsets cannot produce an horizon event.
hmm. i don't know about that, you'd have to define your terms a bit more clearly.

That something is missing there. There is some kind of deep solemn truth, and self-assurance, that it takes to facilitate an horizon event ...
An utter leap of faith ... Across to a place where no reasonable secular person would ever dare step.
you'd be intrigued at some of the midrashic literature around abraham. in fact, once you start really understanding the episode of the "binding of isaac", you understand what a radical horizon event it actually was.

It is a gene we humans have inside us. I know it is there. But I am afraid to access it. Because I know it ...Will change everything. It will ... change ... everything.
and perhaps not in the way you expect. religion, at its best, is a way to access it (i'd not call it a gene) in a way that changes lives for the better.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
... "Legend" by David Rohl? It does exactly what you're discussing here - identify a physical place using historical and archaeological clues - and if I remember properly, places it someone around the Zagros mountains in Turkey, close to the source of the Tigris & Euphrates. (?) ...

Eden is many places. Across Turkey. And not just in Turkey.

Rohl is playing a game. It is like a puzzle.
I just read about someone who is making the Eden-claim about the Gobekli Tepe site. Silly game.
(Philosophically and psychologically, the need to find 'the one place' is bred of an ontological fallacy - the fallacy of idealism. It seeks form without context.)

But yeah. I am referring to the same site as Rohl, in Post #7 above. An idle pursuit. So much nonsense ... matching lore to the facts on the ground.

The point is not the actual place. But the horizon event which occurred.
 
Great OP Penelope. It is an idea I have touched upon a couple of times in the past here but not with the particular focus you bring. Which has a lot going for it. I think you may be able to expand it by thinking on the significance of metallurgy in the same region, all the worlds most ancient copper mines are in that area. And perhaps more significantly how the wealth that was created from trade surplus effected religion and politics.
That said it is now beyond question that agriculture arose independently several times across the world and it was more likely to have first occurred in China than in the area of modern day Turkey. Perhaps the silk road brought ideas long before it carried cloth and spice?
http://www.botanischergarten.ch/Africa-Harvest-Sorghum-Lit/Harlan-Centers-1971.pdf
Earliest Agriculture in the New World
origins of agriculture :: Earliest beginnings -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
 
interesting. for myself, i believe horizon events are rare things - a "change in the wind" in society is rarely down to one person. moses, jesus, lao-tze, confucius, muhammad, alexander, constantine, luther, spinoza, guru nanak, napoleon, einstein, darwin, marx, hitler, gandhi, stalin, mao, mandela - none of these people, good or evil, arose from a vacuum; all of them were products of their environments and required people before and after them to make them significant figures.
And this years "No Sh1t Sherlock" award is duly awarded to you ;)

religion, at its best, is a way to access it (i'd not call it a gene) in a way that changes lives for the better.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/9647/agriculture/10760/Earliest-beginnings
Shoorly you mean "at its best and rarest" ! ?
 
You agree with someone ! Seeing that is about as close to a 'miracle' as any of us are likely to see.
 

Eden is many places. Across Turkey. And not just in Turkey.

Rohl is playing a game. It is like a puzzle.
I just read about someone who is making the Eden-claim about the Gobekli Tepe site. Silly game.
(Philosophically and psychologically, the need to find 'the one place' is bred of an ontological fallacy - the fallacy of idealism. It seeks form without context.)

But yeah. I am referring to the same site as Rohl, in Post #7 above. An idle pursuit. So much nonsense ... matching lore to the facts on the ground.

The point is not the actual place. But the horizon event which occurred.

have you seen any of this?
[youtube]pPgII_4ciFU[/youtube]

its a unified field theory I am getting through, but it lead me to his site which discusses the Eden site Anthropology - Nassim’s Journal and a trailer for the 'event horizon' DVD Trailer: “Crossing the Event Horizon” - Nassim’s Journal.
 

Hi Nativeastral.

Thanks for the tip on Nassim Haramein and his "Crossing the Event Horizon" lectures.
A number of Haramein's interests do appear to parallel mine.
If I had 8 hours of spare time to toss to the wind, I'd dive in and listen to the other 44 (11-minute) segments of his lecture.

Two things, though, I should point out:

"Event Horizon" ...

This is a concept from physics and astronomy. It regards watching an object in the vast distance of outer space moving away from you or watching an object during the act of it disappearing into a Black Hole. There is an horizon beyond which you will no longer be able to accurately see this object (if see it at all) - no matter how good your instruments. At root, a pretty simple concept. But the phrase "event horizon" also has a certain pizzazz to it. Sounds like something more than it is. A metaphor for some BIG CONCEPT.

So Hollywood picks up the phrase for the title of a movie. New Age thinkers lift the phrase for a book or lecture title.

By "horizon event" in my writings above, I had intended to mean the reverse of "event horizon." I am speaking of something, formerly not perceived as part of the human experience. But something that suddenly appears upon the human horizon (the human emotional/intellectual horizon) for the first time in human history.

Poor choice of phrase upon my part. I should have anticipated the problem. (Apologies for the confusion.)

"Ancient Wisdom" ...

I always wince when someone uses the phrase "ancient wisdom." Nassim Haramein does so, more than once, in the first eleven minutes of his lecture.

Firstly ...
By taking metaphorical ideas from modern science, then linking these ideas to "ancient wisdom," New Age thinkers confer upon their ideas the patina of INSTANT DEPTH.

The Great Religions, over the centuries, have each earned their emotional DEPTH.

(Even if that particular Great Religion should someday be proved to be a LIE at every point of its theological foundations, the emotional DEPTH would remain ...
Too many great human individuals, who ascribed to this religious tradition, brought their own individual depth of thought and feeling to this Tradition over the centuries - cumulatively enriching the Tradition.
Even if this Religion, per se, were to die - this RICHNESS, this depth, would not be lost.)

So, while I will grant Haramein and other New Age thinkers the stage to make their case (I enjoy the exchange of ideas), I will approach each such thinker with more than just a healthy skepticism ...
I will approach their ideas, Nativeastral, with a certain emotional resentment ... for embedding their ideas in a past which they have no right to claim as their own.

Secondly ...
I'm not convinced that "ancient wisdom" was ever all that WISE.

Lacking the scientific method, ancient science (from Babylon or Egypt or wherever) tended to be "mystical" to fill in its gaps in understanding - Astronomy was mixed with Astrology, Chemistry with Alchemy, Mathematics with Numerology, Geometry with Geomancy.

To believe in some magical "divining" rod to predict the future ... is not wisdom. It is foolishness.

I mean, genuine science today has a limited ability to "predict the future" - say, Meteorologists predicting "rain next week." But think about it, Nativeastral ...

Wouldn't it would be laughable for a New Age (or any) thinker to call your local television meteorologist a "Wiseman"? (a "Wise-person"?)

Let's get real, here.

 
hi penelope, thanks for replying to my ad hoc; l realised lt had nothing to do with your storyline but as it was coincidental with regard to that neolithic site and as l wanted to post Nassim's theory l thought l'd chuck it in your thread! so now l know you have a certain bias against anything new age or even mentions of ancient wisdom yet you have regard for the 'Great Religions' even though they may be a lie, just because they have emotional depth?

To me what you've described is just a natural progression in human civilisation, and could just as easily be 'don't touch our women'! since [picking up on Nassim's holofractal theory people come out of people viz 'women'].

All great religions come from ideas even earlier and so if 'new agers' want to regurgitate re evaluate or re invent to come to a fuller undertanding then l'm with that all the way. I havent gotten round to trailing through all his stuff [though you can watch it here without it spliced] but it certainly isn't new as in lacking relevance. It is his take on modern physics but also more pythagorean and spinozan and particularly kabbalistic in that the star tetrahedron is the only structure that can be infinitely divided within a [spherical] boundry and his assertion that the vaccum [or void or space] is the structure that holds all information and that everything else [all the dots or singularities of which we are infinitely one] is connected via that. His idea that all singularities [the smallest particles of atoms] are black holes is something rather mind blowing as well. Perhaps someone more informed that me could make sense of that. Anyway sorry to derail.
 
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