Garden of Eden

[Lunitik]

Hey, all I know is that I need all the help I can get!

No you don't, because nothing can be a help. You are making the wall thicker through the acquisition of ego, you feel you understand because you have comprehended words but you have not known their depths.

All that is necessary is to surrender to NOW. Keep watching mind, its conclusions and judgments and go on inquiring into where these arise from. Know that mind cannot assist in the journey, it cannot come along because the path is not for it. Your heart is all that can come, but how will you drop mind on the way? It is like a persistent stalker, it plays all types of tricks to come along. You simply give yourself utterly to NOW, if you can do that consciously you will arrive this moment. Then you will see how stupid you have been clinging to useless words.

 

[Lunitik]

The whole goal is to drop your identifications. Automatically, if you say you are this or that, it is plain you do not know. Your views too will have to be dropped, right and wrong, every kind of opinion is simply fueling ego. You can do this in an instant or you can use methods to gradually walk the path, but either way all of this will have to be dropped. You will arrive at a point where you are presented with something of object and subject - the fundamental duality itself. Once these are merged, self is annihilated utterly, this is enlightenment.

Ramana Maharshi - perhaps the greatest sage of our time - and his disciples go on saying to always inquire "Who am I?", what is this "I" which is the foundation of every thought that comes to you? Try it, play with it, is any thought distinct from it? Is this thing claiming to be "I" existential, phenomenal? Simply find out what it is, and you will start to see that mind becomes more and more still. What has seen mind stilling? That is you, find out what that is. Simply know that any answer arrived at logically is wrong, keep going.

 

[seattlegal]

No you don't, because nothing can be a help. You are making the wall thicker through the acquisition of ego, you feel you understand because you have comprehended words but you have not known their depths.

What kind of superpowers do you have to know what is going on in my mind? (Could it be figment of your imagination, a product of your own mind?)

All that is necessary is to surrender to NOW. Keep watching mind, its conclusions and judgments and go on inquiring into where these arise from.

Perhaps a demonstration might be in order here?

Know that mind cannot assist in the journey, it cannot come along because the path is not for it. Your heart is all that can come, but how will you drop mind on the way?

Citta

It is like a persistent stalker, it plays all types of tricks to come along.

Indeed, it can.

You simply give yourself utterly to NOW, if you can do that consciously you will arrive this moment. Then you will see how stupid you have been clinging to useless words.

Oh, I agree that freeing the mind of prejudice is very important in order to be able to see things as they actually are.

 

[Lunitik]

What kind of superpowers do you have to know what is going on in my mind? (Could it be figment of your imagination, a product of your own mind?)

It is simply that only a silent mind will help, so the particulars of the noise are irrelevant.

Perhaps a demonstration might be in order here?

How can something inward be demonstrated externally? You can watch me enter the space, but what will be helpful for you in it? It will look like I am falling asleep, you will not gain much. No, it is better that you find that place in yourself, know it for yourself. Then you can grow in it, but peripheral activity is not going to help much at all.

Citta

This is state of mind, the only beneficial state of mind is a silent mind, a non-asserting mind.

Indeed, it can.

You actually display at least three games of mind in your short reply

- the link shows you think you already know something because you have read it
- your agreement is a way to not permit something to transform you
- you question instead of allowing something to permeate

These are each the mind asserting itself into what is going on, why is it necessary that it is present? You permit it because you do not know it is even possible that it isn't present. Your whole conditioning and experience says you are mind - man actually means mind, that is how deeply this illusion goes. You are something else, seek that if you want your religious pursuits to be fruitful in your life.

Oh, I agree that freeing the mind of prejudice is very important in order to be able to see things as they actually are.

Through agreeing, you have not taken the words deeply. Agreement is not unlike disagreement, it is a barrier. Do you think Buddha has spoken that you might agree with him, or that you might transform through their utilization? He even says that you should not accept even what he has said unless it matches your own experience, of course this necessitates experimentation, but never agreement. Even if you think you understand Buddha, you do not, you must still attempt to see what he may be pointing to, whether it differs to your current conclusion. Unless you have direct experience in this way, you are wasting your time with Buddha.

 

[seattlegal]

It is simply that only a silent mind will help, so the particulars of the noise are irrelevant.



How can something inward be demonstrated externally? You can watch me enter the space, but what will be helpful for you in it? It will look like I am falling asleep, you will not gain much. No, it is better that you find that place in yourself, know it for yourself. Then you can grow in it, but peripheral activity is not going to help much at all.



This is state of mind, the only beneficial state of mind is a silent mind, a non-asserting mind.



You actually display at least three games of mind in your short reply

- the link shows you think you already know something because you have read it
- your agreement is a way to not permit something to transform you
- you question instead of allowing something to permeate

These are each the mind asserting itself into what is going on, why is it necessary that it is present? You permit it because you do not know it is even possible that it isn't present. Your whole conditioning and experience says you are mind - man actually means mind, that is how deeply this illusion goes. You are something else, seek that if you want your religious pursuits to be fruitful in your life.



Through agreeing, you have not taken the words deeply. Agreement is not unlike disagreement, it is a barrier. Do you think Buddha has spoken that you might agree with him, or that you might transform through their utilization? He even says that you should not accept even what he has said unless it matches your own experience, of course this necessitates experimentation, but never agreement. Even if you think you understand Buddha, you do not, you must still attempt to see what he may be pointing to, whether it differs to your current conclusion. Unless you have direct experience in this way, you are wasting your time with Buddha.

Let me be a bit more to the point--quit projecting! Your hang ups are yours, not mine, and I am not doing your homework/housework for you, and don't dump your garbage here!

Clear enough?

Now if you would like to actually consider my words instead of dismissing them and projecting your hang-ups onto me, fine.

 

[Lunitik]

Let me be a bit more to the point--quit projecting! Your hang ups are yours, not mine, and I am not doing your homework/housework for you, and don't dump your garbage here!

I am not projecting, I am pointing out your projections.

Clear enough?

More than you can know at this time, you have shown your own barrier if you would but realize. You say you are not doing my homework, then why these links to Buddhist nonsense? These are a particular persons experience, I have tried to show you how to create an authentic experience of your own - why do you suppose your ego has been threatened by this?

Now if you would like to actually consider my words instead of dismissing them and projecting your hang-ups onto me, fine.

What use do you think your words have been? If you can point out what in them you consider valuable, perhaps we can advance on that...

 

[seattlegal]

I am not projecting, I am point out your projections.

ROFLMAO!

More than you can know at this time, you have shown your own barrier if you would realize. You say you are not doing my homework, then why these links to Buddhist nonsense?

I posted Citta because it is associated with heart. You said to drop the mind (did you mean manas?)

These are a particular persons experience, I have tried to show you how to create an authentic experience of your own - why do you suppose your ego has been threatened by this?

I would prefer your addressing my ideas/questions to your dismissing them and projecting your imaginings of what is in my mind onto what you label as my mind, thank you very much. It is called dialogue. It is not an invitation for you to project your hang-ups onto me.

What use do you think your words have been? If you can point out what in them you consider valuable, perhaps we can advance on that...

Go back and read them.

 

[Lunitik]

I posted Citta because it is associated with heart. You said to drop the mind (did you mean manas?)

Your own link states that it means "state of mind", Buddha will not have said anything about heart - his whole method is not concerned with it. Love arises out of his practice, but his method is to reduce the influence of mind.

I would prefer your addressing my ideas/questions to your dismissing them and projecting your imaginings of what is in my mind onto what you label as my mind, thank you very much. It is called dialogue. It is not an invitation for you to project your hang-ups onto me.

I have addressed them, you simply have not liked my response. Your projection is that I am dismissing them, in reality I have tried to bring to a place which will be more helpful based on them.

You are very studied, but study is not going to help, you have to come to a point where you realize acquisition of knowledge is accomplishing nothing, then you can move onto the next phase of seeking. There is a Sufi concept called "the Seven Valleys", you are stuck in the first - for the Sufi there is nothing worse than getting caught in a particular Valley and not advancing.

The first Valley is search, once you have found it, then there is a love which forms, the second valley. Next is the valley of certitude, there is no longer any room for doubt. Fourth is the valley of unity, direct experience of oneness marks this valley - this is where kensho's start. Fifth is the valley of bliss, now nothing phases you, you are content. Now is the valley of wonderment - this is where satori's begin, longer kensho's essentially. Seventh is the final loss of self, samadhi - now satori is permanent.

You will know where you are, but be weary of becoming stagnant... do not keep acquiring and relying on knowledge, eventually you will need to apply it to advance. You have become defensive because I am attempting to prod you along, you are not ready and it is fine.

I must apologize for that, it is compassion though, seeing people stuck is frustrating.

 

[seattlegal]

Your own link states that it means "state of mind", Buddha will not have said anything about heart - his whole method is not concerned with it. Love arises out of his practice, but his method is to reduce the influence of mind.

One example: Animitto Sutta

There are many other examples I can provide if you are interested.

I have addressed them, you simply have not liked my response. Your projection is that I am dismissing them, in reality I have tried to bring to a place which will be more helpful based on them.

And yet you wrote this:

This is state of mind, the only beneficial state of mind is a silent mind, a non-asserting mind.

And you have responded with are unfounded assertions regarding my mind based upon ignorance.

You are very studied, but study is not going to help, you have to come to a point where you realize acquisition of knowledge is accomplishing nothing, then you can move onto the next phase of seeking.

There is also a a Zen saying--Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

There is a Sufi concept called "the Seven Valleys", you are stuck in the first - for the Sufi there is nothing worse than getting caught in a particular Valley and not advancing.

The first Valley is search, once you have found it, then there is a love which forms, the second valley. Next is the valley of certitude, there is no longer any room for doubt. Fourth is the valley of unity, direct experience of oneness marks this valley - this is where kensho's start. Fifth is the valley of bliss, now nothing phases you, you are content. Now is the valley of wonderment - this is where satori's begin, longer kensho's essentially. Seventh is the final loss of self, samadhi - now satori is permanent.

Thank you for the information regarding the Sufi constructs.

You will know where you are, but be weary of becoming stagnant... do not keep acquiring and relying on knowledge, eventually you will need to apply it to advance. You have become defensive because I am attempting to prod you along, you are not ready and it is fine.

I must apologize for that, it is compassion though, seeing people stuck is frustrating.

Thank you for your concern.

 

[Lunitik]

You will note "concentration of the heart", and "steady mind".

This is quite important, what is the signless concentration of the heart? It is a merging of the dualities, because all dualities are views which are not upheld by heart. The heart does not judge, it does not label, it accepts all as it is.

You must make mind one pointed in dropping views, all opposites must be dropped. Then super-consciousness, the barrier of self is overcome. Now mind is stilled, it is no longer racing, Buddha calls this "no-mind".

Life goes on after enlightenment, you do not die. That is all the koan states, you have simply been recreated - born again. Your whole perspective and outlook is totally changed, and yet nothing has really changed. You are perfectly right I have assumed, because you go on attempting to teach, you go on presenting Buddhist knowledge, you go on showing you still cling.

I have left the boat by the bank after crossing the river, it is as though you keep tracking me down to give it back - it will be a burden now, nothing more.

 

[Lunitik]

We have a word for thinking with the heart: intuition.

 

[bananabrain]

If all has happened, God has caused all to already be - you have no free will because every choice you're presented with has already been completed. It has not happened because in this plane it is still happening, it as as a script or day two of a play.

ok, but even if all that is true (and, i believe, physicists are telling us that time is relative, which i don't have an issue with) it doesn't mean that our choices are not real *as far as any experiential reality is concerned*. if you don't believe me, try jumping off a roof and experiencing the essential non-reality of gravity. now, it could very well be that all this is an illusory reality or maya (i think that's the term) in G!DSpace and that, Ultimately, none of it actually "happens", but i strongly suspect that in this particularly iteration of this particular set of circumstances, the outcome would be fairly real. it's quite simple, really; what is real to us is not Real to G!D; we can conceive of this Reality, but we cannot experience it and remain real.

As for not lifting a finger to save someone from pain, Buddha's disciples will help no one in trouble because if this person then goes and kills tomorrow it is on them.

a ridiculous and anti-human position. it's not "compassion" in any way that i understand the term.

They allow fate to play its course utterly, and yet he has lasted 2,500 years!

probably because it isn't like you say and buddhists intervene all the time in just about everything.

Osho never....blah blah blah excuses blah, he never asked for any of the stuff people gave him, no responsibility blah blah blah

yeah....right.

Osho has not taught repression of sexuality, and again actually recommends children engage their sexual curiosity at a younger age so that earlier in life they are engaging in more mature relationships.

gosh, that's not risky or controversial at all, is it?

What does ehyeh asher ehyeh mean, then?

it will mean what it will mean. it sounds an awful lot like "it's up to you what i mean" to me. in other words, "quit trying to understand Me and take responsibility for your own destiny".

providing meaning puts you in a box

yep - a box marked "meaningful", as opposed to a meaningless tangle of glutinous verbiage.

Osho would say he has owned nothing though, because how can you own an object?

"own" also means "have responsibility for the upkeep and wellbeing of". i bet he didn't do the housework or the gardening or the rolls-royce maintenance, either, did he? how very convenient for him.

This is the most beautiful aspect of Osho, that he is the culmination of every former tradition and yet utterly original.

gosh.... gobsmacking.... nobody's ever said that before..... except of course jesus, muhammad, shabbetai tzvi, jacob frank, abdul-baha, mirza ghulam ahmad, marx... i could go on, but it's tough on my suspenders. (as marx himself once said, in fact)

For me, he is the greatest enlightened man the world has ever known because he is utterly authentic.

authentic, as opposed to fraudulent, presumably?

I am unfamiliar with OSHO, can you point me towards something worthwhile online?

Osho/Rajneesh

When you give, first you have to gain, you have to be utterly greedy otherwise what will you give?

fantastic stuff! what could *possibly* go wrong with a philosophy like that, eh?

The Qabalah cites the Tree of Life as being imperfect, due it being created by the Demiurge

the kabbalah says nothing of the sort; sources, please. earlier configurations of the sefirotic system were imperfect and hence collapsed, but the tree configuration was the one that worked, despite the admixture of evil. as for the demiurge, that is a gnostic concept, not a kabbalistic one - the misattribution of gnostic concepts to kabbalah is quite a minefield, partially due to prof gershon scholem's work - he's an important scholar, but not entirely correct in many ways.

which the Gnostics believed as well, this Tree then collapsed and where the physical/material Malkuth was not originally present, there now existed it due to the collapse.

umph... that's not really how we see it at all.

Some Luciferians and LHP Orders believe it necessary to assist the completion of the collapsing Tree in order to rebuild a better and balanced Tree of Life.

that would make sense, if you considered that it was the tree that was collapsing, but it was the prior configurations of "yosher" and "igulim" via the universes of points and so on. a traditional kabbalist considers that it is one's job to collect and repair the sparks that fell into the lower worlds through the various tiqqunim and unifications. however, i could see that lhp might have an important function in terms of change management as freeing up the sparks in the first place, allowing them to be retrieved; however, please note that similar doctrines were held by the shabbateans and frankists, so they're hardly "kosher".

See this is where you fail in this 'InterFaith' forum (my turn to be blunt), until you can prove to any of us that your beliefs are Truths then you are simply instigating and demeaning in tone, whether purposely or accidentally, which neither a truly enlightened being would project.

well, quite! also, what you said in post #118.

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making. Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

and still is, if you are familiar with traditional jewish prayer practices, which embrace all of these, including both visualisation, vocalisation and "yoga-esque" physical elements; however, not everyone is a) familiar with them or b) has expertise in them.

I am enlightened, why remain skeptical?

hur, hur, hur. sorry, but you don't seem terribly enlightened to me. scoffety scoff scoff.

There is also a a Zen saying--Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

and that is a sentiment with which jews can heartily concur.

I have left the boat by the bank after crossing the river, it is as though you keep tracking me down to give it back - it will be a burden now, nothing more.

hey, you there! there's a feckin' big hole in yer boat. why've yis abandoned this piece of rubbish where people can trip over it? clear up after yerself, why can't yis?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

the kabbalah says nothing of the sort; sources, please.

I should stress this is Hermetic "Q"abalah which is syncretic, but does include a lot of Judaic Kabbalah.

Thanks for the link also!

 

[bananabrain]

I should stress this is Hermetic "Q"abalah which is syncretic, but does include a lot of Judaic Kabbalah.

Thanks for the link also!

yes, i thought as much. a lot of jewish kabbalists scoff at non-jewish kabbalah for this reason; it is, from our point of view, nonsensical to talk about egyptian god-forms or enochian chess being anything to do with kabbalah. my rule of thumb - it is the first letter that generally tells you where someone's coming from, qabalah being occultist/hermetic/wmt, kabbalah being jewish and cabala being christian - although, strictly speaking, q is correct from my point of view, as the letter qof is a guttural, not a palatal (i think that's right) although only if you're sephardi and distinguish your qof from your kaf. most don't even bother to distinguish alef from 'ayeen or het from khaf, let alone tet from tav. don't get me started.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

yes, i thought as much. a lot of jewish kabbalists scoff at non-jewish kabbalah for this reason; it is, from our point of view, nonsensical to talk about egyptian god-forms or enochian chess being anything to do with kabbalah.

That's ok, we Occultists believe Judaism is just another version of Egyptian monotheism (Akhenaton's Atum religion) and Mesopotamian mysticism.

 

[seattlegal]

You will note "concentration of the heart", and "steady mind".

This is quite important, what is the signless concentration of the heart? It is a merging of the dualities, because all dualities are views which are not upheld by heart. The heart does not judge, it does not label, it accepts all as it is.

You must make mind one pointed in dropping views, all opposites must be dropped. Then super-consciousness, the barrier of self is overcome. Now mind is stilled, it is no longer racing, Buddha calls this "no-mind".

Life goes on after enlightenment, you do not die. That is all the koan states, you have simply been recreated - born again. Your whole perspective and outlook is totally changed, and yet nothing has really changed. You are perfectly right I have assumed, because you go on attempting to teach, you go on presenting Buddhist knowledge, you go on showing you still cling.

Um, are you aware that I'm on a haphazard path? I can't really call myself a Buddhist, but Buddhism has many excellent tools as well language/concepts that help to communicate ideas to others, and help me understand concepts from paths further west. It just happens to be wear I am on this haphazard path at the moment..

I have left the boat by the bank after crossing the river, it is as though you keep tracking me down to give it back - it will be a burden now, nothing more.

Pity. Are you sure you have crossed to the other shore, where "satori" is permanent?

There is a Sufi concept called "the Seven Valleys", you are stuck in the first - for the Sufi there is nothing worse than getting caught in a particular Valley and not advancing.

The first Valley is search, once you have found it, then there is a love which forms, the second valley. Next is the valley of certitude, there is no longer any room for doubt. Fourth is the valley of unity, direct experience of oneness marks this valley - this is where kensho's start. Fifth is the valley of bliss, now nothing phases you, you are content. Now is the valley of wonderment - this is where satori's begin, longer kensho's essentially. Seventh is the final loss of self, samadhi - now satori is permanent.

If you have indeed crossed to the other shore and satori is now permanent, one would think that you would have no difficulty demonstrating the qualities of permanent satori in an outward manner. Yet you yourself admit:

How can something inward be demonstrated externally? You can watch me enter the space, but what will be helpful for you in it? It will look like I am falling asleep, you will not gain much. No, it is better that you find that place in yourself, know it for yourself. Then you can grow in it, but peripheral activity is not going to help much at all.

I happen to agree with Etu Malku when he {forgive me if I am mistaken about the "he" part} wrote about making a change within yourself and then having it manifest in this objective world in this respect--the manifestation of this type of change is what I call "fruits of the spirit, the four immeasurables, having the law written in your heart," and similar concepts from other traditions.

 

[bananabrain]

That's ok, we Occultists believe Judaism is just another version of Egyptian monotheism (Akhenaton's Atum religion) and Mesopotamian mysticism.

touché!

or, if you prefer, well, that's what freud thought and he was wrong as well.

but what is this "mesopotamian mysticism" beast to which you refer? obviously there are derivative practices, but it's what we did with them that made us different.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

. . . but what is this "mesopotamian mysticism" beast to which you refer?

The practices followed by the Sumerian and Akkadian (Assyrian/Babylonian) peoples from the fourth millennium BC to approximately the 3rd century AD.

Many of the myths shared by Abrahamic faiths can be found in the Mesopotamian religions such as the Creation Myth, the Garden of Eden, The Great Flood, Tower of Babel and mythical Biblical characters such as Nimrod and Lilith (the Assyrian Lilitu) as discussed earlier, as well as the story of Moses' origins shares a striking similarity with that of Sargon of Akkad.

 

[bananabrain]

The practices followed by the Sumerian and Akkadian (Assyrian/Babylonian) peoples from the fourth millennium BC to approximately the 3rd century AD.

Many of the myths shared by Abrahamic faiths can be found in the Mesopotamian religions such as the Creation Myth, the Garden of Eden, The Great Flood, Tower of Babel and mythical Biblical characters such as Nimrod and Lilith (the Assyrian Lilitu) as discussed earlier, as well as the story of Moses' origins shares a striking similarity with that of Sargon of Akkad.

oh, i see, that. although it is is interesting for context, learning about the religious environment that shaped our origins and the influences that the patriarchs and biblical figures would have been subject to ("what do you mean, sacrificing a ram instead of a child? doesn't sound very *religious* to me") it is important not to lose sight of the fact that there's a big difference between them and us - we're still here 3,000 years later and they're not and, of course, we would suggest that this is more than mere coincidence, considering that all the people you mentioned were major world powers at one time or another and we were/are not.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

. . . it is important not to lose sight of the fact that there's a big difference between them and us - we're still here 3,000 years later and they're not and, of course, we would suggest that this is more than mere coincidence, considering that all the people you mentioned were major world powers at one time or another and we were/are not.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Apparently the Christians didn't/don't see you to be that much of a threat . . . like all the others.