"God's" will, my will, free will ?

[luecy7]

Interesting here would be early Man and the formulation of religious tenets. For it was the strongest Man in the tribe that was also the religious figure, most of history's religious figures were also more than competent warriors.

FIST equaled FAITH . . . perhaps it still does?

Do you like it when someone has faith in you? Is a fist in your face an example of faith in you?

 

[Etu Malku]

Do you like it when someone has faith in you? Is a fist in your face an example of faith in you?

Ye of little Faith
Faith is trust, hope and belief in the goodness, trustworthiness or reliability of a person, concept or entity. It can also refer to beliefs that are not based on proof.

In other words faith is what you need when you have no proof!
My children for instance don't need faith in me, they have knowledge and belief from my prior actions, they KNOW I exist and what I am.

 

[radarmark]

Let us try this again. I am merely trying to come to grips why you state I do not believe in faith.

In my reply to Etu Malku I stated, "So, per your argument (supported by S&N), is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning) remains as the foundation of a person's view-of-life (metaphysical outlook), the person in question has no free will." By inference I was using the sense of faith equaling "unjustified belief". I did not state there or elsewhere this was my belief.


Immediately thereafter I stated that "Maybe the truth lays somewhere between the extremes" (of not having free will as long as one believed in G!d, EM's point-of-view and mine, by inference having abundant but limited free will).


And you came back with "Your understanding and knowledge of faith is apparently non-existant. You prefer to think of it as an untested belief, instead of thinking of the relationship between people." Let me repeat, I was using a different sense of the word "faith".


One uses one's free will in making the choice to look at one's palm or, turning over the hand, looking at the back of one's hand. Yeah, I can choose to do that and consider that pretty solid proof of the existence of free will (trivial as the example is, it is pretty irrefutable). Like you, I believe in pretty absolute free will.


I really do not know where you got this "What is the measure of faith of a person who uses a fist against another? What is the measure of faith of a person who carries a weapon to threaten people with? I don't think you believe in faith."


I just do not know what the source of that statement was. I never said anything about using a fist or carrying a weapon. The faith of that person (in your sense) is obviously non-existent. Since being a Quaker (now) I no longer even raise my voice (except when my one gelding is being bad), I do not believe in force an an option, even to the extent of self-defense.


Finally, let me repeat, I have immense faith in individuals I know or have heard of or I see. I trust them to try to do the right thing in circumstances.


I have infinite faith in People (as a democracy or republic). They may get some votes wrong (I have a couple of Quaker Friends who regret they voted for Nixon because he came from a Quaker household) but for the most part "we the people" do a pretty good job... moving from celebrating the victory over the heathen (see the real first Thanksgiving proclamation) to news specials on the intolerable environment at Pine Ridge, from selling human beings as chattlel to voting in a (by the racial laws of 1900) black man as president, from keeping women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen (you get the drift) to twice having one run for the vice-presidency. From the days when we voted in laws making science a crime (Scopes) to where we (in public schools at least) actually teach science.


In 250 years "we the people" have not done too poorly, and I trust them not to do too poorly in the next 250 years.


Now I have quite stipulated that the "faith" you jumped on was a different use of the term, that I quite agree with you in the matter of free will, that I have faith in individuals and faith in the collective. Now, do you have the faith enough in me (that I am not just making this all up) to soften your claim that "I don't think you believe in faith." And if not, what is your measure of that?


Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Etu Malku]

I stated, "So, per your argument (supported by S&N), is that as long as unquestioned belief (faith) and not logic and science (including math and reasoning) remains as the foundation of a person's view-of-life (metaphysical outlook), the person in question has no free will."

Exactly!

Most Friends (Quakers) believe in continuing revelation, which is the idea that truth is continuously revealed directly to individuals from God without a need for any intermediary, objective logic or systematic theology.

This obviously sits well with a scientist as yourself!

 

[luecy7]

Ye of little Faith
Faith is trust, hope and belief in the goodness, trustworthiness or reliability of a person, concept or entity. It can also refer to beliefs that are not based on proof.

If your so called Faith is in your fist, rather than in the person before you and God, then I hope you are content with the people who share this so called Faith in their fists.

In other words faith is what you need when you have no proof!
My children for instance don't need faith in me, they have knowledge and belief from my prior actions, they KNOW I exist and what I am.

If you think your wife and children will remain as what you knew, you have got another thing coming.

 

[Etu Malku]

If your so called Faith is in your fist, rather than in the person before you and God, then I hope you are content with the people who share this so called Faith in their fists.

My Faith? Personally? My Faith is in my Self not in any paranormal entity or delusion or relusion. I do enjoy the company I keep . . . is there a problem with this?

If you think your wife and children will remain as what you knew, you have got another thing coming.

Why wouldn't they? Again, do you have some hidden agenda behind this rash statement?

 

[luecy7]

Now I have quite stipulated that the "faith" you jumped on was a different use of the term, that I quite agree with you in the matter of free will, that I have faith in individuals and faith in the collective. Now, do you have the faith enough in me (that I am not just making this all up) to soften your claim that "I don't think you believe in faith." And if not, what is your measure of that?

I am willing to place faith in you, and I believe you as you say you are not making up stories, but everything you have said is verifying my viewpoint. Not to pick on you: I think there are many here in the same camp.

 

[luecy7]

My children for instance don't need faith in me, they have knowledge and belief from my prior actions, they KNOW I exist and what I am.

My Faith? Personally? My Faith is in my Self not in any paranormal entity or delusion or relusion. I do enjoy the company I keep . . . is there a problem with this?

So you do not have faith in your wife and children, but instead you have faith in your self. Then by your twisted definition you know your wife and children, but you do not know yourself and your own prior actions. Classic.

Why wouldn't they? Again, do you have some hidden agenda behind this rash statement?

Fair warning: People can change and adapt.

 

[radarmark]

Don't understand, but accept your veracity (evidence of my faith in you).

So what would "faith in people" mean, to you?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Etu Malku]

I am willing to place faith in you, and I believe you as you say you are not making up stories, but everything you have said is verifying my viewpoint. Not to pick on you: I think there are many here in the same camp.

Will - Faith - Belief - Viewpoint . . . I rest my case.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

So what would "faith in people" mean, to you?

Trust that "Directions" are being recieved by a bonefide authority who is without ulterior motives.

All knowledge MUST come via "Disciplic Succession" otherwise it is speculation with ulterior motives.

Inre this maxim, there is a famous question:
"How do you know who you real Father is?
Ask your Mother" ---this is "Disciplic Succession.

 

[radarmark]

Nope, bhaktajan. I like proof (like DNA testing). I have nothing against believers in "Disciplic Succession" per se, but I prefer using my own mind.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I like proof (like DNA testing). I have nothing against believers in "Disciplic Succession" per se, but I prefer using my own mind.

Yes, you are correct in what you surmise.

Our mothers can be better trusted to be lying whores trying to shiled us all from the truth of their wonton lifestyles.

We cannot trust elders from the past.

Elders from the past cannot be relied upon to bequeath the following generations with truth.

Now after Billons of years of evolution we can finally change our Tax Laws in favor of enriching ourselves rather than blindly following the Guidance of indentured professors and their grant funded departments.

Now go tell all those "Occupy Protestationers" to go back to school and learn a Profession . . before they get arrested and cause so much overtime pay to paid to those Union membered Police force(s).

BTW, Dictator(s) are not known for passing down the Traditions of their homeland via "Disciplic Succession" ---rather they are know for burning down the old history records and proposing a new caledar dating etc etc.

Usually Revolutions are aimed at restoring the Commonplace tradition of ancestors past.

If it ain't broken ---we don't need to fix it with the latest consumer contraption ---and thus the price need not be again artificially inflated.

 

[radarmark]

Again, all the references confuse me. I never said we cannot trust elders from the past nor did I mention tax law, police protection (or unionization), a dictatorship,a revolution, or fixing something that ain't broke.

I probably agree with you personally on all these points. But we the people have pretty much said we are going to have a democracy or republic of some kind or another. It's worked (here in the USA) for about 250 years and I trust we the people to keep it going. I do not want to return to the days when the Commonplace tradition was to hang Quakers, exile Roger Williams, or burn up Wampanoags by the hundreds (and declare it a Feast of Thanksgiving).

I am defending neither unions nor protesters nor dictators nor Wall Street nor the latest consumer contraptions. I just do not get your point.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

I am defending neither . . nor

I just do not get your point.

We need proof from Authorities ---we then proceed with the truths provided that work and are not broken.

Re-cap:

Radar: So what would "faith in people" mean, to you?

Bhak: there is a famous question: "How do you know who you real Father is?
Ask your Mother" ---this is "Disciplic Succession.

Radar: I like proof (like DNA testing). I have nothing against believers in "Disciplic Succession" per se, but I prefer using my own mind.

Bhak: Yes, [especially If . . .] Our mothers can be better trusted to be lying whores trying to shield us all from the truth of their wonton lifestyles.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Thus, everything else I wrote were examples where “We cannot trust elders from the past.”

Yours truly,
Bhaktajan

BTW, I believe that our elders are truthful without selfish motivations and can be trusted ---and that knowledge must be recieved via a Succession of representatives ---and then we are obliged to prove its veracity with our own experiences.

 

[radarmark]

Gotcha! Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

 

[luecy7]

Don't understand, but accept your veracity (evidence of my faith in you).

So what would "faith in people" mean, to you?

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!

Lets compare what you consider to be faith in you, versus what you consider to be faith in others.

In your estimation, who is having greater faith in you: your wife, or me?
In your estimation, who are you having greater faith in: your wife, or me?

I am a stranger to you, who you have never met, who does not know you, conversing with you over the internet, and having little influence over your life. If you don't see a difference, then lets resolve the difference: PM me your phone number and home address. I may just pay you a visit and introduce myself. Maybe I will send you a gift, or ask you to do something. Better yet, just post it on this thread. 'We the people', right? 'Infinite' faith, right? Ok, I will look for it.

 

[luecy7]

Will - Faith - Belief - Viewpoint . . . I rest my case.

My Faith is in my Self...

Right, your case. Very well:

In your opinion, who are you having greater Faith in: your self, your wife, or me?
In your opinion, who is having greater Faith in you: your self, your wife, or me?

 

[luecy7]

The questions were too hard? No fun? Answering them myself: Thus far I have been placing greater faith in my wife, than in you, and I'm relatively certain my wife has greater faith in me, than in you. Perhaps it is selfish, and no offense is intended, but in every facet of the word that I can think of, it is true. As individuals my wife and I might catch ourselves saying, "We...", and it would likely be a true statement, whereas "We the people", is quite simply a false statement. With a common framework of the word I look at all of my relations, including the one with God.

 

[IowaGuy]

The questions were too hard? No fun? Answering them myself: Thus far I have been placing greater faith in my wife, than in you, and I'm relatively certain my wife has greater faith in me, than in you. Perhaps it is selfish, and no offense is intended, but in every facet of the word that I can think of, it is true.

Luecy, what is your definition(s) of faith?

Let's say your car runs out of gas on a rural Iowa highway. (Not that this has ever happened to me ) You have no cell phone, the sun is starting to set, and you're literally hours from your house (where your wife is). Who do you have more faith in to get you back on the road before dark: 1.) God, 2.) your wife, 3. "we the people" (government, i.e. a highway patrolman/police officer), or 4.) a stranger in a nearby farmhouse?