Religion of not knowing

[Lunitik]

My G!d son (or daughter), just calm down and re-read the last four posts you made. Do you comprehend why it is so dang difficult for us to take you at your word that you are Tathagatha?

I understand full well why you find it difficult...

It is your ego, when you are not faced with Tathagatha, it is easy to conclude whatsoever you wish... when one is present you cannot do it, they will tell you you are a fool.

Tathagatha means one who has both gone and come - it is a paradox, something you insist is there in me, a conflicting statement. It refers to one who has gone beyond the world of opposites, so you see you have continued calling me this all along in your need to comprehend me, in your noticing of my lack of cohesion, contiguousness.

You do not realize it, though.

 

[radarmark]

Make that five. Have a blessed new years!

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

You have come to interfaith.org for a reason.

It's true, but I wouldn't call it faith, this is an interesting place, lot's of interesting people. I have never felt faith and because of that I try not to comment on it. Do you believe I have?

Reading and discussing where opinions collide is a sort of experience, and as you said, it is what I cling to.

 

[Lunitik]

I simply call people to drop their opinions and find out the truth.

It has to be understood, I am not trying to mold, you are unique and should not be like me - I already have that covered - but it is frustrating for me to see people discussing something they have no intention of encountering themselves. How can you know when you have experienced nothing of it? And if you have experienced it, you are not interested in debating about it - it is just stupid to do so, it will go nowhere, you will just pull them back constantly because they keep wandering off.

You are certainly eager to help people find it themselves, because you know what it means, how it will help them... that is not the same thing though... it is merely giving them a prod, but knowledge is not going to do it. Knowledge is food for the mind, for the ego, you are desiring to grow, but I tell you you are already the whole.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I understand, but the way I see it, none is talking about what you are talking about. I'm not saying they won't experience what you say they would experience if they dropped knowledge and opinion. But they are searching for another truth that is founded on what they know, which might not be true according to you. But does it matter? You could never get them to realize what you say is true, can you? You should stop taking responsibility for other peoples lives. The world will keep turning as it has always done.

 

[Lunitik]

I understand, but the way I see it, none is talking about what you are talking about. I'm not saying they won't experience what you say they would experience if they dropped knowledge and opinion. But they are searching for another truth that is founded on what they know, which might not be true according to you. But does it matter? You could never get them to realize what you say is true, can you? You should stop taking responsibility for other peoples lives. The world will keep turning as it has always done.

That's just it, we are becoming powerful enough to destroy this place, and if enmity continues we will do it - people that want to die, that desire nothing but death are acquiring nuclear weapons every day.

Touching as many as possible - and it is not this body alone which is guiding man towards this, there are millions, it would be impossible otherwise - is absolutely necessary. It has to spread like wild fire, it has to touch every corner of the earth, and it is absolutely crucial that it happens as soon as possible. If the masses can attain as a collective, there is a possibility, otherwise man will not last much longer. The awakened ones are causing things like the Middle East shake ups, the Occupy stuff, this is all a result of questioning authority, about not letting these idiots destroy the world.

You ask whether it is possible to cause others to realize the truth? Certainly it is possible to provide the milieu which will permit them to realize it themselves. There is no higher truth than the absolute, all else falls short although it makes a good distraction - unfortunately. You can contribute to the direction this world takes, or you can ignore it and stay in your own tiny world. Through the body, there is a limitation, what you actually are has no limitation though.

The powers of the world today are possessed by their ego's, they do not care about anything but showing they are right. It has to be avoided if humans are to continue, why no direct intervention? This is the intervention, do not ignore it. The powers do not respect life, do not know love, how can they be reached? They have to be ousted.

 

[luecy7]

Nothing I do depends on the other, I simply asked you to stop and you refused. You still refuse... you are utterly obsessed with something utterly irrelevant.

I don't believe you would call it irrelevant if I took out a knife and made you bleed. Similarly I don't consider smoking, and more importantly addiction, irrelevant. If you seek an idle mind, your meditation, then start by not smoking.

Parting ways is not a compromise, it is an assertion of individuality.

My wife and I, and others, apparently don't feel the need to assert our individuality. We either take it for granted, or assert it within more productive interactions.

No.

You have.

I am simply pointing out how far from spirituality you are.

Not really. Your pointing is your pointing.

It is perfectly true, I am, and I could have shown you that you were as well if you weren't so adamant you know anything of the spiritual world.

Sorry... you are not our father in heaven, the creator of this existence.

You know nothing, and yet you think you do.

I know some things, and I know that I do not know some things, and I know that there are some things I should know, and I know that there are some things I should not know. I am comfortable in situations of not knowing, particularly where it is not my place to know, or simply can't know, because I know that others know, and I find that the record is being kept perfectly.

 

[Lunitik]

I don't believe you would call it irrelevant if I took out a knife and made you bleed. Similarly I don't consider smoking, and more importantly addiction, irrelevant. If you seek an idle mind, your meditation, then start by not smoking.

Why would it not be irrelevant? You would not be cutting me...

Do you not see that whatsoever position taken on smoking will cause trouble? It is something this body wants, it has come from the old being in this vessel. Smoking silences the mind because otherwise it yells and screams about it, and it actually assists in meditation, so for me there is no problem. I have also discussed the benefits to it, when people are smoking, it is far easier to approach them one on one. For me, this is the only meaningful interaction possible, in a group the individuals are mostly lost.

You are identified with the body, you see that smoking is harmful to the body and thus you are against it. I am not the body, and thus do not care what happens to it particularly... it is like a car, are you really going to stress if you have scratches on it provided it gets you to work?

Sorry... you are not our father in heaven, the creator of this existence.

There is no such entity, there was never a beginning, it is creativity - by separating creator and creation you create a duality. Have you not created the technology you work on? You say God is the creator, so you cannot create at all. I say the creative force of existence has acted through you, you are naught but a flute being played but you are not aware of it. When I say I am God, it is because I no longer identify with the flute, I am aware of that which plays it and I simply watch and enjoy what occurs.

I am in heaven though, it is not some far away place, it is simply here-now if you have eyes to see. You cling to being something separate, and thus you want to know what will happen to this distinct existence when this body ceases to function. For you, heaven is nothing but greed, it is the ultimate reward and so you dictate your whole life through the desire for it. Hell is nothing but fear, it is the ultimate punishment if you do not obey whatsoever your father has told you - very childish, it is like the cosmic "go to your room!"

Both are false as far as their current connotations, both are simply the way you perceive the world - those who are depressed are living a personal hell, those that are happy are in heaven.

 

[luecy7]

You are identified with the body, you see that smoking is harmful to the body and thus you are against it. I am not the body, and thus do not care what happens to it particularly... it is like a car, are you really going to stress if you have scratches on it provided it gets you to work?

The issue is behavior. All things done here are physical, good or evil, and are done upon physical things. You may wish to believe that you can plant or watch a bomb detonate without being responsible for your actions. I for one disagree and disapprove.

You say God is the creator, so you cannot create at all.

False. Fabrication. That may be how you wish to see it, and that fabrication is your creation. Similarly you formerly fabricated the belief that I was female. That is how you perceived it, so you fabricated it as true. As you know now, I am male with two biological children. Do you believe my wife created the children? Or, did I create the children? Or, did God create the children? Or, did nature create the children? If it is one, do you believe it can not be the other? I think your solo mental masturbation has left you with a false, extremist sense of responsibility.

 

[Lunitik]

The issue is behavior. All things done here are physical, good or evil, and are done upon physical things. You may wish to believe that you can plant or watch a bomb detonate without being responsible for your actions. I for one disagree and disapprove.

The problem is you force things into these categories, you do not permit existence as it is. You then throw an insane example in to make your point inarguable. You persist in delusion that you are this form, until you realize what you actually are, nothing you say is meaningful.

False. Fabrication. That may be how you wish to see it, and that fabrication is your creation. Similarly you formerly fabricated the belief that I was female. That is how you perceived it, so you fabricated it as true. As you know now, I am male with two biological children. Do you believe my wife created the children? Or, did I create the children? Or, did God create the children? Or, did nature create the children? If it is one, do you believe it can not be the other? I think your solo mental masturbation has left you with a false, extremist sense of responsibility.

You have fabricated a God which is distinct, you are God, your wife is God, the babies have come from the womb of God, and your sperm has come from the testicles of God - there is nothing that is not God. In the insemination of your wife, it is naught but the creativity of God, the energy of God which has caused the formulation of a new expression of Him. The child is not yours, the child is the child of God, placed in your trust as an initial driver towards this new expressions purpose - and yet they too are God. Do you think anything is an accident in this place? All actions are the process of God perceived through our senses, but you do not know it so you have imagined something else. Know that whatsoever you imagine God to be is restricted to your own mental capacity, it can never touch the truth of That. I cannot even express it with language, it is not possible, I can only show what it is not and what you are not... when all fallacy is dropped, then there is only truth, and in that moment you realize what is the case.

This is the state of enlightenment, to understand what is actually the case free from all fallacy.

 

[luecy7]

until you realize what you actually are, nothing you say is meaningful.

The method to know who you actually are, and even change who you actually are, is not by watching, but by doing, and it takes two to DO. You might claim everything is God, yet you exclude what I say, as NOT being from God.

there is nothing that is not God.

False. That is the ultimate idol worshipping. I know you do not truly believe it. How do I know? Interaction. You are rebellious, so either your rebellion is with God, and of God, or your rebellion is with someone who says something to you, like "stay". Which is it, are my words from God, or not? Is your rebellion with God, or of God, or not? You may prefer to say that God is rebellious with God, but that is not what you say in interaction. With interaction, your deceit becomes transparent.

This is the state of enlightenment, to understand what is actually the case free from all fallacy.

I know, by interaction, that you are loaded with fabrications. You may think the same of me, and if you think it makes you feel better, I am relatively certain that I am believing some things that are false.

 

[Lunitik]

The method to know who you actually are, and even change who you actually are, is not by watching, but by doing, and it takes two to DO. You might claim everything is God, yet you exclude what I say, as NOT being from God.

You cannot change what you actually are, you can only change the direction of the character you're playing. You are utterly caught up in the role you are playing, but it is exactly that, a role. I attempt to show you the truth of what is occurring here, and you dismiss it, that is fine. I can't help wondering what you hope to gain from our dialogues, but you persist for some reason.

False. That is the ultimate idol worshipping. I know you do not truly believe it. How do I know? Interaction. You are rebellious, so either your rebellion is with God, and of God, or your rebellion is with someone who says something to you, like "stay". Which is it, are my words from God, or not? Is your rebellion with God, or of God, or not? You may prefer to say that God is rebellious with God, but that is not what you say in interaction. With interaction, your deceit becomes transparent.

EVERYTHING contains God, so idol worship is not even worth discussing. Those that know have provided idols for the simple reason that it assists in focusing the student, to be against it is simply stupid. If you know the idol represents God, and you are not worshiping it absent of the divine, there is absolutely nothing wrong in it.

You base all your statements on the existence you know, you do not event permit that it might be absolutely false. I rebel against the stuff man has created, I rebel against everything man has done of his own accord. My rebellion is founded on my interaction with God, it is a correction of the stupid things man is doing with the planet. Man has been shown good alternatives for fuel, for instance, and utterly ignored them because they are not cost effective. I voice things because I know humans will not last the century unless we get our act together... I am not even sure it will be good for us to survive the century though... everything we do, we screw up.

I know, by interaction, that you are loaded with fabrications. You may think the same of me, and if you think it makes you feel better, I am relatively certain that I am believing some things that are false.

You know nothing of me, how can you even dare to say I fabricated anything? As predicted, you only asked about the history of this body, whenever we talked about me - for instance that I am in every flower and tree - you denied me. You are extremely ignorant, and what is worse, you are unwilling to even consider truth - you actually believe you know anything, and yet you know absolutely nothing of the true reality.

 

[luecy7]

I attempt to show you the truth

You know nothing of me

you know absolutely nothing of the true reality.

how can you even dare to say I fabricated anything?

By the help of God, by the golden rule, and by the interaction with you and with others. I do not wish you or anyone to believe me as I declared the nature of any of your words, because that is not how, nor why, I declared them.

 

[Lunitik]

By the help of God, by the golden rule, and by the interaction with you and with others. I do not wish you or anyone to believe me as I declared the nature of any of your words, because that is not how, nor why, I declared them.

You do not see that you are drawn to my words BECAUSE of God.

You do not see that my version of the Golden Rule is far deeper than the nonsense you see in it: You ARE the other, they are an extension of YOU. I merely call you to encounter the truth of this directly, but instead for you there is an insistence of separation, you are ego based.

Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself, I say they ARE you.
Jesus says do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, I say you ARE doing it to yourself.
Indeed Paul seems to express the truth of this when he explains we are part of one body.
Buddha simply says the last fetter is the delusion of distinction, separation.
For me, God is that whole, the indivisible, the one.

You are not spiritual, you are too much attached to perception that you are not even willing to approach reality. It is fine, but I do not understand why you persist if you are so sure of your delusion?

 

[luecy7]

You do not see that my version of the Golden Rule is far deeper than the nonsense you see in it: You ARE the other, they are an extension of YOU. I merely call you to encounter the truth of this directly, but instead for you there is an insistence of separation, you are ego based.

Sounds great, though claiming it as yours is prideful... the issue is, you are in denial of the first word in the golden rule: 'DO'. The seeing that you are in need of is not by watching, the seeing is by doing. It takes two to DO. Your meditation is to NOT 'DO', and though I know that you see something by it, it is destroying you. Now, see someone by 'DO'-ing: Tao with others. Take responsibility for your actions by checking your actions with the golden rule: past, present, and future. With that you can see something that you DO NOT currently see. Dance with God, DO NOT insist that God dance for you... do not be drugged with that alone, because it is not you.

You are not spiritual, you are too much attached to perception that you are not even willing to approach reality.

If I can forgive you for your actions, I can sure as hell forgive you for your words. Listen to your words, and "DO". Don't be a perceiving watcher... DO. Reality is not to be perceived... reality is to "DO", but in the concert with others (and, cacaphony). Don't give a rip for reality... reality will rip. Give a rip for others... as you believe yourself will not rip.

If you wish to know me, then DO as I DO. If you wish to know God, then DO as God does.

 

[Lunitik]

Sounds great, though claiming it as yours is prideful... the issue is, you are in denial of the first word in the golden rule: 'DO'. The seeing that you are in need of is not by watching, the seeing is by doing. It takes two to DO. Your meditation is to NOT 'DO', and though I know that you see something by it, it is destroying you. Now, see someone by 'DO'-ing: Tao with others. Take responsibility for your actions by checking your actions with the golden rule: past, present, and future. With that you can see something that you DO NOT currently see. Dance with God, DO NOT insist that God dance for you... do not be drugged with that alone, because it is not you.

Zen offers something you might find insightful, it says "Sitting quietly, doing nothing, spring comes and the grass grows by itself".

It is a wrong assessment that you dance with God, it is more correct to say there is only dancing. In this, there is a communion, but you are restricted to mere conversation, relation. What I try to show is a far deeper sharing, but you remain on the surface, arguing the periphery to be more meaningful than the depths available.

If I can forgive you for your actions, I can sure as hell forgive you for your words. Listen to your words, and "DO". Don't be a perceiving watcher... DO. Reality is not to be perceived... reality is to "DO", but in the concert with others (and, cacaphony). Don't give a rip for reality... reality will rip. Give a rip for others... as you believe yourself will not rip.

I have not asked for your forgiveness, how pretentious of you!

Does nature cede to us when we try to grow food? We try to choose a particular favorite, and we ignore all other possibilities, only concentrating on this mono-culture. Nature doesn't permit this type of small thinking, this type of tediousness, it wants diversity, freshness. What does it do? It attacks our crops, so we fight back and spray it with chemicals which harm us as much as nature. This is the way of things, everything has a right to its own way, and if you do not respect that, you will end up suffering yourself. You express the ideal, that if something is considered perfect, everything which is less should be dropped. Nature itself provides evidence that our rationale for perfection is far less than ideal.

I simply accord with nature, I insist on my own individuality and I permit others theirs. Where that comes in contact for gain, it is beautiful, but where nothing is gained it is dropped.

If you wish to know me, then DO as I DO. If you wish to know God, then DO as God does.

I do not wish to know you, you are far too narrow minded. I wish to show you yourself, because you do not know how expansive your being is, truly.

God loves, I am an expression of that love, you still do not know it.

 

[Lunitik]

Humans have this basic instinct to try to retain what we have decided we enjoy, we see this in fruits and flowers, we see this in cats and dogs, we cannot help tampering to create something we enjoy more. This is our instinct to control, and it has dire affects. We manage to utterly destroy a species natural inclination to evolve, to create diversity, because we like it how it is. Now the species of plant never evolves a way to counteract insects and the like, so we have to artificially counteract them. The same happens in cats and dogs, we create breeds that have a fundamental predisposition to certain ailments merely to satisfy our own desire. Everywhere we look, we see the hazards of attempting to control nature, yet we fail to heed the lessons.

In yourself, when you weren't trying to stop me from smoking, you were discussing your particular dietary habit and how you will harm your body with a particular fast. It is nothing but this need to control again. How can you possibly lose weight when your body never has a predictable pattern of intake? You can starve yourself, that will cause you to shrink, but it is completely unhealthy and you will balloon again when the diet is finished. You have to come up with ways to harness the natural state rather than try to fight it, which is what most seem to constantly attempt - and for me, this has arisen out of the concept of sin, hell and devil, man is perpetually in a battle, some going so far as to say the physical universe itself is something of the devil because always he feels he has to defeat it.

We have to permit diversity and enhance it, not try to limit it to something we prefer. Humans are the diversity of consciousness expressing itself, yet we limit it to what is considered "normal". We want everything the same as us, or to align with us, but it is not possible. The extremes of this is racism, we are so identified with our skin color we have killed simply for having a different shade. It is absolutely an extension of this us vs them attitude, this favoritism for that which agrees with us and the shunning of all we dislike. We should be growing in consciousness, but doing so in unique ways, certainly we should not attempt to limit consciousness in any way shape or form, we should celebrate the diversity.

That is diametric to current religion though, organized religion is basically the emulation of anothers peak of consciousness - that is all God is, the peak of consciousness. We do not permit new expanses of consciousness, we do not see that Jesus and Buddha and all others merely represent our own potential, indeed we even chastise and kill those that realize their own potential and announce it - indeed, this is exactly what happened to Jesus. We mock anything that differs from our programming, our training, not realizing that this is doing us harm... it is the same thing as what kills our crops... our need to control ends up harming ourselves, it simply limits us - but really it is an expression of our limitation.

Maybe the example of the Bansai tree will be useful... in this plant, they continuously prune, they continuously limit the roots growth, and so what has the potential to be a giant tree remains this tiny bush. This is exactly like consciousness, we limit the roots by not experiencing due to fear of sin, thus our consciousness never reaches to the sky which is God - we simply limit our vitality. This is exactly the same example as the Lotus flower in the East, it grows out of something utterly disgusting - sludge and mud - seeking the sun through much water, then eventually the most beautiful flower is formed when it finally reaches the surface - once it finally breaks through the barrier of water. Again, the sludge is sin, the animal in us, the water is our own mind accepting the sludge, being founded in the sludge, but breaking through that there is the flowering of enlightenment.

 

[Lunitik]

An example of your narrow mindedness: you preach the Golden Rule in relation to humans, yet you do not even treat animals as something which are alive. You have trees everywhere, but you take them for granted. You are not interested in knowing either of them, understanding their reality as well as your own. Its an amazing thing, but do you know that the trees laugh, that the very ground has the capacity to play? You are not aware of the finer qualities of life, for you the only relation possible is which others through talking, yet you do not even realize birds have a language, a song, you do not understand the language of nature. You are very limited, yet you consider yourself worthy of emulation. This is naught but your ego, I try to help you expand, you reject it, I try to help you find your true self and you dispute it, instead arguing that one should remain giving away their energy, never expanding it - for that is all meditation is, it is like a recharging of batteries above and beyond sleep, sleep merely returns you to normal, meditation takes you higher. For me, it seems your light is fading, it is hardly believable that it remains lit at all, yet you reject all offers of fuel. I do not understand why you would think anyone would want to be like you? God is life, you have none, you have mere survival and it is not the same. You are running from death, but you do not realize life begins when you confront death, when you defeat death, and this is what is meant by being born again. To be born again, you first have to die as you are, then you are born as something divine.

I only wish to share that divinity, help you realize your own, but you have been constantly against it... you are utterly negative in every way, yet you consider yourself an upstanding person. This is the trap of many that try too hard to be saintly, they squeeze their own life out through repression and relinquish their light to try to impress those around them - look at the example of Buddha, he has been lavish, then utterly deprived, but he realized both were the work of his ego, finding the middle is what caused his enlightenment, and my own... you are sick, but you do not know it. At least allow Jesus to be your healer if you won't accept me. You may have money, but you are utterly poor in life, in spirit. You need help from somewhere, you seem trodden on, abused, it is depressing. You have missed by a long way on the message of Jesus and Muhammad to my understanding, no one celebrates like the Sufi's, no path is more beautiful than theirs, but even some Christian denominations are very alive.

 

[luecy7]

In this, there is a communion, but you are restricted to mere conversation, relation.

Yes, you restricted yourself to mere conversation. Relationships are much more than that.

God loves, I am an expression of that love, you still do not know it.

I know the expression that was presented to me: selfishness, apathy, sloth, and a physical dependence on several addictive mind altering drugs. What did you say of the police car on the street? "There is a snitch in your neighborhood." You expressed and revealed your true self in so many ways.

 

[Lunitik]

It is somewhat inevitable, though, that a faith becomes basically a slow death, the master is dead so what else can they do? They will see in the texts whatever they want to see, and the master is not there to correct them, they cannot see his celebration, his vibrancy so they become the opposite, they become somber. How is this religion? The Bible says God is the God of the living, yet Christians seem to be just waiting for death, begging for the destruction of this place - and the Muslims aren't much better, always thinking of the end of the world, excited about the possibility of death.

It is because the flame has gone, now people are sitting around a pile of ashes, not realizing there is a new flame in the world, insistent the old flame will return here so they needn't move. Find a living flame, it scares me to realize there are people so lacking in vitality, it doesn't seem possible that you remain breathing, there is no life in you, you are as a zombie to me. I don't understand how this can be construed as religious...