Lucifer or a king?
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Hi Ahanu —
Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, who set himself up as a god. The imagery then is the 'false dawn' of the morning star, when eclipsed by the actuality of the rising sun.
The Greeks, for whom logos had replaced mythos, look not so much to the effects but the cause, not so much the fact that the King of Babylon set himself up as a god, but rather at the tendency in man to do so, and the inevitable result ...
So one might say the Hebrew and the Hellenic interpretation of the text is the same, but from different points of view.
God bless,
Thomas
Isaiah is talking about the King of Babylon, who set himself up as a god. The imagery then is the 'false dawn' of the morning star, when eclipsed by the actuality of the rising sun.
The Greeks, for whom logos had replaced mythos, look not so much to the effects but the cause, not so much the fact that the King of Babylon set himself up as a god, but rather at the tendency in man to do so, and the inevitable result ...
So one might say the Hebrew and the Hellenic interpretation of the text is the same, but from different points of view.
God bless,
Thomas
Ahanu
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This is what I was thinking since Isaiah 14.4 states the verses following it function as a "taunt against the king of Babylon," but why does Isaiah 14.12 include a reference to Lucifer?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Strong's H1966--heylel
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
1) to shine
a) (Qal) to shine (fig. of God's favour)
b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2) to praise, boast, be boastful
a) (Qal)
1) to be boastful
2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)
b) (Piel)
1) to praise
2) to boast, make a boast
c) (Pual)
1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one's boast
e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman
a) (Qal) to shine (fig. of God's favour)
b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2) to praise, boast, be boastful
a) (Qal)
1) to be boastful
2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)
b) (Piel)
1) to praise
2) to boast, make a boast
c) (Pual)
1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one's boast
e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman
Etu Malku
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Of course you knew I would pipe in sooner or later 
The vision of cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and was developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them.
This revision of earlier monotheism also involved a split in society, divided between ‘sons of light' against ‘sons of darkness'. Followers of Jesus adopted the same pattern. Each of the gospels in its own way invokes this apocalyptic scenario to characterize conflicts between Jesus' followers and the various groups each author perceived as opponents.
The Devil does not come from Judaism, it is rather a pagan influence. The Zoroastrians believed that there were two gods, one good and one evil, in constant opposition and competition for human souls. Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during the time period before Christianity arose.
In no part of the canonical books of the "Old Testament" are we given the Devil in the Christian sense—the once favored angel that sought to lead a rebellion to overthrow God, was cast from heaven into hell, and now seeks to tempt/trick/torture human beings in opposition to God's will.
The term ha-Satan means literally the-Adversary, and the term is used in a number of contexts that mean adversary in general. The closest thing that we find to the Christian concept is its use as the title (though not the name) assigned to an angel in Yahweh's court.
He was a prosecutor for God against human individuals, with God as the Judge. Ha-Satan could not act without God's permission and did not cause people to sin, though God may have ha-Satan test a person, as in the case of Job. Ha-Satan's primary role was to record and point out the sins people committed and argue against them in the holy court in accordance with God's will. In the (apocryphal) book of Enoch, Satanael/Samyaza is the leader of the Grigori, who again were cast out of heaven for sleeping with human women and producing a race of giants.
The mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. It is suggested that this results from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which referred to the king of Babylon. However, a brief review of the origin of the name Lucifer shows this is also untrue. In legend Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star. Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness.
Lucifer means "light bringer," meaning a Morning Star god announcing daily birth of the sun. The Canaanites called him Shaher, the Hebrews Shaharit, Morning Service, still commemorating him. His twin brother, Shalem, the Evening Star, announced the daily death of the sun. These two may be identified as the heavenly twins of the Greeks, Castor and Pollux, born of Leda's world egg. They also played a prominent role in Persian sun worship as two torch-bearers, one with an ascendant torch, the other pointing downward.
In Canaanite legend Shaher and Shalem were born of the great mother Asherah, in her world-womb aspect as Helel, "the Pit." Shaher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and attempted to usurp his throne, but was defeated and cast from the heaven like a lightening bolt.
There is a seventh century BCE scriptural account of this story of the Morning Star, which eventually became Isaiah 14:12-15. Lucifer is told, "Thou shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." The pit, here, is symbolizing, or the same as, Helel, the Mother-bride's womb. In this version Lucifer, the light-bringer, is cast from heaven by the solar sun, Christian God, because he was competing for the sexual favors of the Mother. In the Bible, the sin of Lucifer is pride, whereas, in nature, it was sexual.
The Morning Star was the god, at times referred to as a bird, Benu to the Egyptians. He was the dying-and-reborn bird Phoenix, called the "Soul of Ram" who died on the World Tree in order to renew himself so to "shine on the world." It is said his spirit dwelled in the phallic obelisk, called Benu or the Benhen Stone, representing the god's sexual union with the Mother.
One finds Plato knew the morning star as Aster that appeared in a different position as the evening star (actually the planet Venus). He saw Aster as a dying-and-reborn deity. Of it he wrote, "Aster, once, as Morning-Star, light on the living you shed. Now, dying, as Evening-Star, you shine among the dead."
The Gnostic Christians too believed in the light of Lucifer which they viewed as the enlightenment which he as the Serpent, also an Egyptian phallic form as the serpent Ami-Hemf "Dweller in the Flame," who enlightened the first parents, Adam and Eve, against God's will. Here Lucifer is likened to Prometheus who stole fire from heaven to give civilization to humanity. God denied the first two people the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but Lucifer gave them the light of wisdom.
The vision of cosmic struggle, forces of good contending against forces of evil, derived originally from Jewish apocalyptic sources and was developed by sectarian groups like the Essenes as they struggled against the forces they saw against them.
This revision of earlier monotheism also involved a split in society, divided between ‘sons of light' against ‘sons of darkness'. Followers of Jesus adopted the same pattern. Each of the gospels in its own way invokes this apocalyptic scenario to characterize conflicts between Jesus' followers and the various groups each author perceived as opponents.
The Devil does not come from Judaism, it is rather a pagan influence. The Zoroastrians believed that there were two gods, one good and one evil, in constant opposition and competition for human souls. Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism during the time period before Christianity arose.
In no part of the canonical books of the "Old Testament" are we given the Devil in the Christian sense—the once favored angel that sought to lead a rebellion to overthrow God, was cast from heaven into hell, and now seeks to tempt/trick/torture human beings in opposition to God's will.
The term ha-Satan means literally the-Adversary, and the term is used in a number of contexts that mean adversary in general. The closest thing that we find to the Christian concept is its use as the title (though not the name) assigned to an angel in Yahweh's court.
He was a prosecutor for God against human individuals, with God as the Judge. Ha-Satan could not act without God's permission and did not cause people to sin, though God may have ha-Satan test a person, as in the case of Job. Ha-Satan's primary role was to record and point out the sins people committed and argue against them in the holy court in accordance with God's will. In the (apocryphal) book of Enoch, Satanael/Samyaza is the leader of the Grigori, who again were cast out of heaven for sleeping with human women and producing a race of giants.
The mentioning of Lucifer immediately brings to mind the concept of the Christian Devil. It is suggested that this results from a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which referred to the king of Babylon. However, a brief review of the origin of the name Lucifer shows this is also untrue. In legend Lucifer retains its Latin meaning "bearer of light" or "light bearer" designating the Morning Star. Christianity assigned Lucifer the position of the Prince of Darkness.
Lucifer means "light bringer," meaning a Morning Star god announcing daily birth of the sun. The Canaanites called him Shaher, the Hebrews Shaharit, Morning Service, still commemorating him. His twin brother, Shalem, the Evening Star, announced the daily death of the sun. These two may be identified as the heavenly twins of the Greeks, Castor and Pollux, born of Leda's world egg. They also played a prominent role in Persian sun worship as two torch-bearers, one with an ascendant torch, the other pointing downward.
In Canaanite legend Shaher and Shalem were born of the great mother Asherah, in her world-womb aspect as Helel, "the Pit." Shaher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and attempted to usurp his throne, but was defeated and cast from the heaven like a lightening bolt.
There is a seventh century BCE scriptural account of this story of the Morning Star, which eventually became Isaiah 14:12-15. Lucifer is told, "Thou shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." The pit, here, is symbolizing, or the same as, Helel, the Mother-bride's womb. In this version Lucifer, the light-bringer, is cast from heaven by the solar sun, Christian God, because he was competing for the sexual favors of the Mother. In the Bible, the sin of Lucifer is pride, whereas, in nature, it was sexual.
The Morning Star was the god, at times referred to as a bird, Benu to the Egyptians. He was the dying-and-reborn bird Phoenix, called the "Soul of Ram" who died on the World Tree in order to renew himself so to "shine on the world." It is said his spirit dwelled in the phallic obelisk, called Benu or the Benhen Stone, representing the god's sexual union with the Mother.
One finds Plato knew the morning star as Aster that appeared in a different position as the evening star (actually the planet Venus). He saw Aster as a dying-and-reborn deity. Of it he wrote, "Aster, once, as Morning-Star, light on the living you shed. Now, dying, as Evening-Star, you shine among the dead."
The Gnostic Christians too believed in the light of Lucifer which they viewed as the enlightenment which he as the Serpent, also an Egyptian phallic form as the serpent Ami-Hemf "Dweller in the Flame," who enlightened the first parents, Adam and Eve, against God's will. Here Lucifer is likened to Prometheus who stole fire from heaven to give civilization to humanity. God denied the first two people the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but Lucifer gave them the light of wisdom.
Ahanu
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From my understanding, Lucifer is a Latin translation of the Hebrew word "helel," meaning "the bright morning star." Here's what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
"The planet Venus is more distinctly referred to in Isaiah 14:12: 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!' (the King James Version). The word here rendered Lucifer, that is, 'light-bearer,' is the word hēlēl corresponding to the Assyrian mustelil, 'the shining star,' an epithet to which the planet Venus has a preëminent claim."
Etu Malku
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In Greek mythology, Hesperus (Greek Hesperos) (Roman equivalent: Vesper cf. "evening", "supper", "evening star", "west"), the Evening Star is the son of the dawn goddess Eos (Roman equivalent: Aurora) and brother of Eosphorus (Eosphoros "dawn-bearer"; also Phosphorus, Lucifer "light-bearer", Iubar), the Morning Star. Hesperus' father wasm Cephalus, a mortal, while Eosphoros' was the star god Astraios.
Hesperus (Greek Hesperos) is the personification of the "evening star", the planet Venus in the evening. His name is sometimes conflated with the names for his brother the personification of the planet as the "morning star" Eosphorus or Phosorus (Ancient Greek: "bearer of light", often translated as "Lucifer" in Latin), since they are all personifications of the same planet Venus. "Heosphoros" in the Greek LXX Septuagint and "Lucifer" in Jerome's Latin Vulgate were used to translate the Hebrew "Helel" (Venus as the brilliant, bright or shining one), "son of Shahar (Dawn)" in the Hebrew version of Isaiah 14:12.
When named thus by the early Greeks, it was thought that Eosphorus (Venus in the morning) and Hesperos (Venus in the evening) were two different celestial objects. The Greeks later accepted the Babylonian view that the two were the same, and the Babylonian identification of the planets with the Great Gods, and dedicated the "wandering star" (planet) to Aphrodite (Roman Venus), as the equivalent.
Hesperus (Greek Hesperos) is the personification of the "evening star", the planet Venus in the evening. His name is sometimes conflated with the names for his brother the personification of the planet as the "morning star" Eosphorus or Phosorus (Ancient Greek: "bearer of light", often translated as "Lucifer" in Latin), since they are all personifications of the same planet Venus. "Heosphoros" in the Greek LXX Septuagint and "Lucifer" in Jerome's Latin Vulgate were used to translate the Hebrew "Helel" (Venus as the brilliant, bright or shining one), "son of Shahar (Dawn)" in the Hebrew version of Isaiah 14:12.
When named thus by the early Greeks, it was thought that Eosphorus (Venus in the morning) and Hesperos (Venus in the evening) were two different celestial objects. The Greeks later accepted the Babylonian view that the two were the same, and the Babylonian identification of the planets with the Great Gods, and dedicated the "wandering star" (planet) to Aphrodite (Roman Venus), as the equivalent.
Ahanu
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Okay.
So how does this information prove Isaiah 14.12 is a reference to Satan instead of the king of Babylon? Here's Isaiah 14.12 in context from the NIV:
On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury[a] has ended!
5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury[a] has ended!
5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
Etu Malku
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It doesn't
the Isaiah verse is about King Nebuchadnezzar. The word/name Lucifer is not found anywhere else in the Christian bible.The Morning Star is also attributed to Jesus Christ himself (Apocalypse 22:16) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
It doesn't
The Morning Star is also attributed to Jesus Christ himself (Apocalypse 22:16) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."
2 Peter 1:19
NiceCupOfTea
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so who is rise in the hearts of Christians satan or Jesus ?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
it's used as an adjective
phōsphoros
Pronunciation
fō-sfo'-ros (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective
1) light bringing, giving light
2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
3) metaph. Christ
Thayer's Lexicon says the Latin for this word is Lucifer.
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it all sounds a bit confused really, if Christ is lucifer ?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Phōsphoros means light bearing.
I guess it depends upon which light bearer you want to believe (word etymologically related to beloved)--who's view do you follow? Do you love righteousness or unrighteousness?
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radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
As far as Isaiah goes, Thomas has it absolutely correct. The Hebrew is "Helel ben Shaḥar" or the shining one, son of the morning which by Jewish sources is now and ever has been a term of endearment for Nebuchadnezzar II (used into Talmudic times), period.
"Lucifer" or "light-bearer" is just a literal translation of "Helel" into Latin. A made-up word meant to correspond to "shining one, son of the morning".
While it is true Zoroastrianism can be interpreted as dytheistic and there are strong dytheistic terms in the Qumran Scrolls, it is far from certain that either interpretation was the interpretation within Zorastrianism or the Qumran Community. It is certainly not the case that the four religions coming from each (Iranian Zoroastrianism, Parseeism, Rabbibic Judaism and Karaitism) as practiced today (and as far as we can trace them back within those groups) are the very definition of monotheites.
So, while all the comments are very interesting, they are much like the various millenarian interpretations of Revelations. They are interpretations which (1) probably are not true and (2) are far less likely than the literal literal traditionalist reading (see Jews on how you read Isaiah and Eastern Christians on how you read Revelations).
"Lucifer" or "light-bearer" is just a literal translation of "Helel" into Latin. A made-up word meant to correspond to "shining one, son of the morning".
While it is true Zoroastrianism can be interpreted as dytheistic and there are strong dytheistic terms in the Qumran Scrolls, it is far from certain that either interpretation was the interpretation within Zorastrianism or the Qumran Community. It is certainly not the case that the four religions coming from each (Iranian Zoroastrianism, Parseeism, Rabbibic Judaism and Karaitism) as practiced today (and as far as we can trace them back within those groups) are the very definition of monotheites.
So, while all the comments are very interesting, they are much like the various millenarian interpretations of Revelations. They are interpretations which (1) probably are not true and (2) are far less likely than the literal literal traditionalist reading (see Jews on how you read Isaiah and Eastern Christians on how you read Revelations).
Etu Malku
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probably Satan . . . what?