'You will burn in hell!'

Nick the Pilot said:
Q,

There is no question that the God of the Old Testament did terrible things. But the 'being saved' people on this forum (as you have described them) excuse these stories away as perhaps-not-so-well-meaning-hyperbole and "literary license". But these things do not change the fact that these terrible stories about a mean, vindictive God are in the Old Testament.

You need to just hang in there and keep pointing out to these people, "I want you to acknowledge that these terrible stories about a mean, vindictive God are in the Old Testament." Until you can get these people to acknowledge such things, I'm afraid you are not going to make much progress arguing your case.

Keep it up. Use a technique from assertiveness training called Broken Record. Keep repeating, "I want you to acknowledge that these terrible stories about a mean, vindictive God are in the Old Testament," until you get some responses.

And, remember; if they are not willing to acknowledge your point of view, then you don't have to acknowledge theirs.
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By posting as I do, those who have the 'truth' can feel so good about themselves, when they compare themselves with this hell bound heathen.:D:D:D:D
 
Quirkybird said:
By posting as I do, those who have the 'truth' can feel so good about themselves, when they compare themselves with this hell bound heathen.:D:D:D:D
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Go girl! Tell it!

There's too many who think they have the 'truth'! Who think God delights in sending people to hell! That the God of the Bible is all about callousness and cruelty!

'hell bound heathen'? ;) I think not. You fight the good fight!

The more you highlight the prejudice and unreason, the irrationality of extreme positions, the more you point all to the wisdom of the Middle Way.
 
Quirkybird said:
Thank you dear, but this totally senile old bat (according to my kids:D) is quite used to fighting her own battles and has been doing so since she first drew breath!:D
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:D I think you secretly enjoy being bolshie! Keeps you feeling young, I'll admit! :eek:

Don't worry about the kids. Mine give me the :p all the time!
 
I don't see myself as bolshie, I just tell it how it is from my perspective.:)
 
Hi Nick —
Nick the Pilot said:
There is no question that the God of the Old Testament did terrible things.
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Well there is really, 'cos' there evidently the question as to whether the God of the old Testament exists at all! :eek: Or whether the way we read it is as the writer intended. :eek::eek:

Anyone can ask questions.

A more fruitful question is why the compilers of the text might include such terrible things, especially when they insist on the idea that God is good.

What counts is the wisdom of the answer. ;) That's where illumination lies.
 
I think there is no question that the literal interpretations of the words written by man pertaining to G!d as written in the OT...indicate G!d did terrible things...
 
wil said:
I think there is no question that the literal interpretations of the words written by man pertaining to G!d as written in the OT...indicate G!d did terrible things...
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Yep. And said terrible things, too.

So either the sacred scribe was quite mad, as are those who cherish the words, or perhaps there's more to it than the literal?
 
One would hope that nothing attributed to the Biblical deity is true!:eek:
 
Much more than the literal...

but to combine both the above contemplations of Thomas and Quirky..... I enjoy knowing their is truth in every smiting and every plague...be it allegorical truth, metaphorical truth, mythological truth, metaphysical truth, or a true parable....
 
Thomas said:
wil said:
I think there is no question that the literal interpretations of the words written by man pertaining to G!d as written in the OT...indicate G!d did terrible things...
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Yep. And said terrible things, too.

So either the sacred scribe was quite mad, as are those who cherish the words, or perhaps there's more to it than the literal?
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I prefer to look at it this way. Yes. God did what we see as terrible things. The questions I have are: If God is omnipotent and in full control, why wouldn't He just prevent people from doing things that deserve such terrible punishment? And, are the terrible things God did, evil?

And here is the answer I get.

Pretend you go to see one of those action/suspense movies. Plug in your favorite actor--Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, whatever. It doesn't matter who the actor is, the plot is just about the same every time. Let's do the hostage one. You know the scenario. Bad guy takes female hostage. Good guy wants to rescue female. Bad guy makes good guy go through terrible trials, one after another.. each one increasingly perilous. The suspense builds. Good guy is on the edge of death himself. In the climactic scene, good guy finally catches up with bad guy, and then--with great satisfaction--proceeds to terminate the bad guy in a very gruesome manner. People love watching these movies, though we all know that in the end, good guy will prevail and bad guy will die. The final act where good guy dispenses justice in a terrible, gruesome way, inevitably gives the audience great satisfaction.

Now suppose the producer of the movie decided to dispense with all the stuff in between, and instead has the good guy prevent the bad guy from taking the female hostage in the first place. Good guy stops him, cuffs him, and throws him in jail. Story over. Roll credits.

Is that satisfactory? Would you feel like you got your 20 bucks worth at the theatre, watching this 10 minute movie? Of course not.

And I sense that God feels the same way. God enjoys dispensing justice. In some cases, He gives the bad guys over to their own evil desires and lets them keep digging that hole.. with every increasingly evil deed, they dig themselves deeper and deeper... and in a final, climactic scene, God--in an unrestrained, extraordinary way--dispenses His justice.

In the end, when I ask why God lets the whole thing play out like that, I conclude it is because it pleases Him. It is for His pleasure. In fact, if you look at the entire scenario from creation to Adam and Eve, redemption, and judgment... there is the strong sense that all of this is happening for God's divine pleasure.

We can argue about the character of God, in that these things please Him, but again, consider the alternative... the 10 minute movie where nothing happens and the story ends. It doesn't sound very satisfactory to me. Nor would it be satisfactory for just about anyone. And... after all.. if the bible is to be believed, we are made in His image, right?


As far as the question of whether or not God's "terrible" actions are evil. I look at that one this way: God's actions taken against corrupt, dangerous, evil people... including actions where He completely extinguished entire communities.... are akin to a doctor removing a malignant cyst from someone's body before it does permanent harm. Is the doctor evil for killing the "innocent" cyst that exists in the only way it knows how? No.
 
I went to add this but the timer ran out on my ability to edit.

This is what I should have put before I went on my rant:


*disclaimer*
In no way am I suggesting that God is the author of evil, or makes people do evil things. I am merely suggesting that sometimes God just lets evil people "run with it" for a while. He turns them over to their own desires. There is a big difference between God handing down justice to those who deserve it, and God making them do bad things for the sake of punishing them. The latter is not what I subscribe to and I had to put out this disclaimer in case anyone accused me of it.
 
I don't believe in any G!d that 'enjoys dispensing justice' aka telling his minions to smite others...

If I can't replace the word G!d with the word "love" I move beyond the literal and look for the story, be it allegorical, parable, metaphor, metaphysic, mystical....
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Keep it up. Use a technique from assertiveness training called Broken Record. Keep repeating, "I want you to acknowledge that these terrible stories about a mean, vindictive God are in the Old Testament," until you get some responses.
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Broken Record only solidify the opposite party if there isn't any erosion, and erosion only comes from arguments and counter arguments. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't do this. Attacking something that someone loves deeply doesn't paint yourself in a good light either.

I would even go so far as say that your technique is specifically counter interfaith in all shape and form. Yours and Qs sharing of opinion, and specifically how you came to these, is just what we're hear for. The constant attacks without substance is tiresome and destructive to any form of communication.
 
wil said:
I don't believe in any G!d that 'enjoys dispensing justice' aka telling his minions to smite others...

If I can't replace the word G!d with the word "love" I move beyond the literal and look for the story, be it allegorical, parable, metaphor, metaphysic, mystical....
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You're choice. Then you don't believe most of the Old Testament. A just God, in my opinion, does take satisfaction in dispensing justice. Dispensing justice isn't always in the form of smiting, by the way. Dispensing justice can be to reward someone for pleasing God. Dispensing justice can be to prevent someone from getting a material thing they want because they don't deserve it.

If you are going to say you don't find any satisfaction in someone "dispensing justice" to a serial killer, a child rapist, a terrorist who plants bombs a few yards away from outdoor cafés, an arrogant, greedy politician, a dishonest, money-grubbing televangelist.... If you don't find satisfaction in these people meeting their just end--whether it be 6 feet under, or in a 10'x10' prison cell, then you are in the tiny, tiny minority. I dare say it's "human nature" to take satisfaction in seeing bad guys get "what they deserve."
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Broken Record only solidify the opposite party if there isn't any erosion, and erosion only comes from arguments and counter arguments. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't do this. Attacking something that someone loves deeply doesn't paint yourself in a good light either.

I would even go so far as say that your technique is specifically counter interfaith in all shape and form. Yours and Qs sharing of opinion, and specifically how you came to these, is just what we're hear for. The constant attacks without substance is tiresome and destructive to any form of communication.
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images
 
Frrostedman said:
I dare say it's "human nature" to take satisfaction in seeing bad guys get "what they deserve."
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I've argued, with myself, the distinction between Justice and Revenge, and the line I've drawn is actually the emotional satisfaction.
Not an accusation, just giving you a peek into my mind.
 
Most Christians don't believe in most of the OT....they are into 10 commandments not 600+, and only want to talk about stoning gays...not the line above or below it...

we all pick and choose...while we accuse others of picking and choosing....
 
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