What makes you think everyone else is wrong about belief

In the ancient Jewish world that is why they had prophets...to speak the Word of God. Here and now communication.

Be here now, though takes on a different meaning for a post-Jewish pentecostal of Christ. Spirit to spirit is possible and calling no one master as a human is for these, now operative.

In other words, a more direct line of communication is possible for a whole passel of folks. Whoo hoo.

Don't you think the root cause of the problem is that in the ancient Jewish world they did have prophets to speak the word of God. Said prophets have been sadly absent in modern times. If they are not going to be here to speak the word, is it any wonder that people try to find the word through other humans. When there is a vacuum, someone will fill in the void. Since prophets are lacking, it is left to mortals to pick up the slack, no?
 
Posted by HCSpiritual:
It may be a position of tolerance, but it is also a position of disrespect for the belief under consideration.
Posted by Thomas:
Yes, I think such 'tolerant' people are blissfully unaware of how casually disrespectful they are.

Oh Really? A position of tolerance in other's beliefs is actually disrespecting other's beliefs? SERIOUSLY????? So by definition, not believing other's beliefs is inherently disrespectful.

We want to talk about disrespectful. Let's talk about the obnoxious attitude of the true believers who KNOW their truth is the only truth. We see them on these pages all the time. Now that is disrespectful!
 
Prophets were mortals eh? Someone took what they said seriously, and wrote it down on a scroll...the scrolls were circulated and eventually canonized. Not all who claimed prophet status were listened to, not all who were listened to had their words written down and circulated, not all that was written down and was circulated was canonized.

I'm guessing there have been many prophets since....but hasn't been a new canon in (Judaism 2,100 years, Christianity 1700 years, Islam 1600 years) our latest prophets? According to some? Joseph Smith...Bahaulla...Haile Selassie...Edgar Cayce...Ramtha....Seth....Abraham.... of the most famous that come to mind quickly... probably thousands of others... who will stand the test of time....check this thread a thousand years from now.
 
We want to talk about disrespectful. Let's talk about the obnoxious attitude of the true believers who KNOW their truth is the only truth. We see them on these pages all the time. Now that is disrespectful!
Put true believers (of one denomination of one faith) in one room and it doesn't take long to find out they have differences in their truth... Truth be known there aren't a lot of Viktor Frankl's.

Viktor Frankl: Why believe in others | Talk Video | TED.com
 
A conflict arises in expression of belief through action.

For example:

My belief requires me to do X.
Your belief requires you to do Y.
X and Y are mutually exclusive.

Or:

My belief forbids me from doing X.
Your belief requires me to do X.
 
Example Dan??

I mean there are those whose beliefs require they proselytize. Mormons who do their missionary work. But my belief doesn't say I can't listen or don't have to, but I choose or don't choose to answer the door.

Folks that freak when they see a nativity scene, or a Muslim praying at noon...those aren't religious issues, simply prejudices.

But yes, if you belief requires you cut of my head....we got issues.
 
Example Dan??

I was trying to avoid saying things that will be inflammatory, but ..

A baker doesn't want to make a wedding cake with same-sex figures on it, because same-sex marriage transgresses his religious beliefs, but he's sued and forced to do it.

A restaurant's owner makes a statement that supports traditional marriage. Even though his business treats its employers and customers the same way regardless of their beliefs and practices, the business is attacked with boycotts and negative publicity.

A business's owners are forced by law to pay for their employees' abortions even though the owners believe that abortion is wrong.

Finding employment with companies that are tolerant of Sabbath observance, faith-specific dress and periodic breaks for prayer is challenging.
 
"Some assume a position of tolerance." Thomas I'm still not getting it. Are you saying that these people are pretending tolerance?
 
Dan, I don't see where two religions are colliding...you are speaking of gov't laws/regulations which counter religious beliefs. Our gov't here in the US shouldn't cater to religious beliefs should it? I suppose if you want the gov't to change the laws to satisfy the baker and store owner's beliefs you also want them to cater to EVERYONE's religious beliefs as law?? (Sharia Law??)
 
Dan, I don't see where two religions are colliding...you are speaking of gov't laws/regulations which counter religious beliefs. Our gov't here in the US shouldn't cater to religious beliefs should it? I suppose if you want the gov't to change the laws to satisfy the baker and store owner's beliefs you also want them to cater to EVERYONE's religious beliefs as law?? (Sharia Law??)

Wil, I gave examples of conflicts between different beliefs.

"Our gov't here in the US shouldn't cater to religious beliefs should it?"

If "cater" means "be tolerant of", then it certainly should. Isn't that what freedom to practice religion means? Or must religious practice be confined to one's home or church, and prohibited from public display?
 
Are you saying that these people are pretending tolerance?
Yes, I'm saying they confuse tolerance with indifference on the one hand, and a feeling of superiority on the other.

Like 'casual racism' they make remarks which they will swear are not offensive, but if you made the same remark (in essence) about something they feel strongly about, then they do get offended.

You know the kind of people, they often say ignorant and offensive things about others, and defend their right to do so.

But you dare to pass critical comment on their thing, and they complain most vociferously.
 
Okay, I'm treading on shifting sands here; not so sure of my footing. I read the link about causal racism. A lot of it smelled like infamous political correctness than any actual racism. Comparing it to your comments - people defend their right to say ignorant and offensive things - are they truly ignorant and offensive? Or are they different opinions.

I guess my confusion is where does one draw the line between the former and the latter. You seem to have a clear idea of what separates the two. I'm having a difficult time finding that line.
 
Dan said "If "cater" means "be tolerant of", then it certainly should. Isn't that what freedom to practice religion means? Or must religious practice be confined to one's home or church, and prohibited from public display?"

No that is not what freedom to practice religion means. And it is a matter of interest to me that the majority of the time, it is the Christians who go on about their right to religious freedom, even if that right of theirs means trampling the religious freedoms of others.

My response to the religious freedom card is this. One person's religious freedom ends when it prevents someone else from practicing their religious freedom. Take the Hobby Lobby case you mentioned. The owner of the company is a Christian who believes reproductive rights is a sin. Which includes both abortions and contraception prevention. He believes that it he can deny his employees insurance coverage* because it violates his religious beliefs.

What about the religious beliefs of the people who work for him? Why should they be forced to obey his religious rights at the expense of their own? The owner of HL has the right to practice his religious preferences for himself. That is freedom of religion. He does not have the right to force his religious beliefs on his employees.

It will be of enormous interest to me when a non-Christian owned company decides their religious preferences do not agree with Christian preferences, and the former says they have the right to deny the latter. Woo Hoo! Is that going to raise the roof off the building. Deny Christians?????


*And it is insurance coverage we are talking about here. HL would not be paying for abortions as you incorrectly stated in your comment. Any more than any company pays for any form of medical procedures.
 
Not just Bible, all scriptures have such (absurd) claims even my own Hindu ones. Best to use science.

That be good, if you could use SCIENCE to describe the mechanism of life, even of a flower or bug, sir.

Since you cannot, in terms of realization, self-realization or any other kind of realization, then you must admit...

...science has major problems in terms of spirituality.

P.S. I learned this from Cat Stevens, before he was Ali baba, or whatever um, when he became Muslim.

/ 'Cause the soul of no body knows / How a flower grows / Oh how a flower grows.

La la, and that...
 
Hi GK –

Can I say, before all else, I dislike PC with a vengeance!

Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way.

Two types of tolerance then:
One is caring tolerance.
This tolerance seeks to understand why others do what they do, even if we do not agree with them.

The other is uncaring tolerance.
This tolerance simply ignores the other. It's like the way people tolerate the homeless on the street, they just ignore them. They assume things about them, based on superficial judgements and prejudice.
 
My response to the religious freedom card is this. One person's religious freedom ends when it prevents someone else from practicing their religious freedom. Take the Hobby Lobby case you mentioned. The owner of the company is a Christian who believes reproductive rights is a sin. Which includes both abortions and contraception prevention. He believes that it he can deny his employees insurance coverage* because it violates his religious beliefs.

"One person's religious freedom ends when it prevents someone else from practicing their religious freedom."

That's the basis for the conflicts I mentioned in an earlier post. If two beliefs or practices are mutually incompatible, how is the conflict resolved? I don't have the full answer, but banning religious practice is not the answer.

What about the religious beliefs of the people who work for him? Why should they be forced to obey his religious rights at the expense of their own? The owner of HL has the right to practice his religious preferences for himself. That is freedom of religion. He does not have the right to force his religious beliefs on his employees.

The employer is not forcing his beliefs on his employees. The employees are free to do whatever they want. But the employer is declining to provide them the specific financial subsidy to perform an action that he believes is wrong. The employees are still free to use the money they receive in salary or find other insurance.
 
Not said "science has major problems in terms of spirituality."

I would disagree. Science has zero problems with spirituality as science has nothing to say about spirituality. It is not the right tool for the job.

To Thomas. Okay, think I get it. Something still feels slippery about it but I cannot put my finger on whatever that is. So will leave it like that for now.

Dan said "That's the basis for the conflicts I mentioned in an earlier post. If two beliefs or practices are mutually incompatible, how is the conflict resolved? I don't have the full answer, but banning religious practice is not the answer."

This does seem to be a genuine Gordian Knot. I don't have the answer either. If two religious beliefs are mutually exclusive the only way for the conflict to be resolved is to ban the one or the other.

Dan said "The employer is not forcing his beliefs on his employees. The employees are free to do whatever they want. But the employer is declining to provide them the specific financial subsidy to perform an action that he believes is wrong. The employees are still free to use the money they receive in salary or find other insurance."

The bold portion of your statement proves the employer is forcing his beliefs on his employees. He is refusing his employees insurance coverage that they would normally expect to receive as part of an average company health insurance plan. And it's not as if the company is paying some huge amount of this cost as it is. See below*

So what if the owner of a different company is a Christian Scientist? That group does not believe in the use of medicine (with the exception of some obvious injury) at all. That owner then should have the right to refuse health insurance to their employees? According to the logic you are using this owner should have the right to tell his employees "go pay for your own health insurance."


*For our readers overseas, who have no understanding of so called health care in America, it is typical that the employer pays a portion of the cost of health insurance while the employee pays the rest. Over the past decade or two companies have been forcing the employees to pay a higher and higher percentage of this cost, as well as forcing them to pay out of pocket much higher deductibles as well. In other words, the employees are paying a significant percentage of their health insurance costs already.

What is a deductible you ask? That is the amount of your own money a person must pay towards medical costs before the health insurance they are paying for will start paying for your medical expenses. Aren't you all devastated that all you get is full medical coverage from the government under that (shudder) crappy socialism nonsense?!?!?
 
I'm well aware people feel disrespected when I tolerate faith they are intolerant of. We are all free to feel offended by others beliefs. But since there are no known objective truths we all have to live together in the end. Offended or not.

Sorry for the delay in responding here. I've had a bit of medical excitement here (it isn't every day you get a cancer diagnosis), and I had to pick which of two threads I'd get to first.

I don't think you understand what I mean about an implicit disrespect in an approach which tolerates everything. I'm not talking about beliefs (in the sense of established dogma, anyway). Nor am I talking about religious affiliations (and the assorted disputed between them). I'm not even talking about tolerance as in getting along with each other. It is, after all , entirely possible to think someone is entirely wrong about something and get along with them.

I'm talking about the willingness to put spiritual ideas on the stand and pronounce some of them wrong.

Let me try to give you a hypothetical story to illustrate what I mean. Bear with me -- its long, but I can't think of how to shorten it without losing some of the point I'm trying to show.

---

Lets take a child - we'll call her "Ada". Ada is born and raised a member of the -- for hypothetical purposes -- "betaist" faith. As a child she learned the myths and took them to heart, believing every word and following what she learned in Wednesday school to the letter. Faithfully she would recite every day the Betaist's Oath: "I pledge myself to the nameless beyond, and I pledge myself to its servant, the Guardian Gamma, who came as a gazelle to save the people of the delta..."

Beginning around ten, though, she began to notice something. The myths contradicted each other in places, and in other places, the Great Guardian Gamma didn't seem either great, or good. Finally, when talking with the Temple chief, she burst forth with all of her doubts. He gently explained that the stories were not meant to be taken at their word, but were instead told to teach a moral. In talking with her the temple chief was so impressed with her sharpness, that he loaned her one of his theology books.

Ada devoured the book, which seemed to have every answer for every one of her questions. She resolved to become a betaist theologian. For the next twenty years Ada immersed herself in theology, learning how to find meaning in the language of the myths. Eventually Ada earned a Ph.D. in Betaist hermeneutics, and was offered a teaching position at the leading Betaist seminary.

But even as she began a long-desired career as a theologian, she faced another wave of doubt. She could find meaning, as in exegesis, in the words of the myths, but it was a dead meaning, an intellectual exercise that left her no more fulfilled than an exegesis of the words on the back of her breakfast box of corn flakes. Was there anything, really, at all, to Betaism?

After a few years she left her position at the seminary and and took up teaching English at a local high school. She still considered herself a Betaist, "for cultural reasons", she'd explain, but she no longer attended Wednesday services, and even began drinking mint tea, something prohibited to Betaists. Then one day, as she prepared yet another lesson plan, it was as if a bolt of lightning struck her: it was not the words on the paper that ought to have been interpreted with more words on more paper: it was the message written in the heart which was to be interpreted with one's life.

She began to attend Betaist services again. After a number of years, she joined a small Betaist religious order which emphasized simpicity, prayer, and meditation. Ada spent her remaining years as a member of the order, eventually becoming its Lead Mother. It was said that her last words were the words of the Betaist Oath: "I pledge myself to the nameless beyond, and I pledge myself to its servant, the Guardian Gamma, who came as a gazelle to save the people of the delta..."


---
From the beginning to the end of this hypothetical story, our heroine is one single denomination, so there is no question of this being an argument about affiliation. And if at any point if this hypothetical story you had interrupted Ada and asked what did she believe, she would have recited back at you the Betaist's Oath (albiet with a cynical twist during one period of her life). So, this is not about belief-as-in-doctrine.

But if at any point in her life past the age of ten you had asked her whether her ideas about the spiritual had been correct ten years previously, she would have laughed and said no, of course not. Sometimes she would have pointed to something minor, things she hadn't yet studied in school that changed her views on a matter. Sometimes she would have pointed to something enormous, an error whose correction affected the entire course of her life. She, in most instances, would not have hesitated to say that she had been wrong.

When a person takes the position that anyone else's spiritual ideas are right, no matter what, they deny outright their potential for change and growth. They say it doesn't matter to them. They say the most sublime spiritual moment and the crudest sort of "rah rah my God is bigger than yours" narrow literalism are equal in their eyes. They're saying that, even if another person comes to see his or her own ideas were wrong, they never will, which is a very patronizing thing to do to someone.

I wrote Ada's story to take her through the great stages of spiritual development, from literalism through intellectualism to mysticism, with a touch of doubt, backsliding, and cynicism. You don't have to change your doctrine to come to some radically different understandings of it.

What's more, if you look at the great branches of spiritual thought, for all their differences, they have commonalities. They have the literalists and ritualists, as Ada was as a child. They have their intellectuals. And they have their mystics. Nearly all agree that it is the mystics who have the deepest grasp of the faith. And when you look at what their mystics say, it is stunningly similar, one from another. There is something there, there. Some substance that lets us say that the ones who think their God -- and they always do seem to make God (or Dharma) their personal possession -- told them to go hate everyone else are wrong. That the ones who see spirituality as an intellectual exercise alone are missing the point, and their conclusions are sometimes flat-out wrong. That persons who treat their professed spirituality with cynicism have more to learn. Indeed, there is much that professes to be mysticism that is very much mistaken. We can see this not by opposing one path to the next but by looking at them in unison and seeing their commonality.

Ultimately, tolerance for the sake of tolerance is a fearful position. It's afraid to take a position, sometimes because its advocates have been taught its not polite to have an opinion, sometimes because its advocates are afraid they don't really know how to recognize what's wrong or right.
 
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