Treading carefully through TULIP

Devils' Advocate said:
This is certainly the popular view, that man is the best that nature has to offer thus far in its evolution.
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I think that depends.

I agree with you in that I think the idea that evolution is a linear progression towards perfection is a flawed one.

The Scriptural view that man stands at the apex of creation is founded on the idea that man can know God, and as we both agree, not from any scientific viewpoint.

Christian metaphysics views human nature as one that is 'open to the infinite', and from there we get into the mystical senses of aligning the human will with the Divine will, and/or that the human intellect can host or in some small way unite with the Intellect.

St Maximus (again) summed it up in the sense that at ground level there is the mineral world, then there is the flora world (mineral+) then the fauna world (mineral+flora+), then the human, then the angelic. Angels are higher than humans because they are pure intellect/spirit, humans are higher than angels because they are a unity of intellect/matter, spirit/body ... so in man all physical creation is present, and man can be consciously present in and to God.

There is the question: "If God made man, why did He not make him perfect?", and I wonder if indeed God made the many universes, and in this one, man went off the rails, whereas there are others where man stayed 'on message' as it were, and walks in the Garden and never fell ... If, as I am reliably informed, according to Quantum theory, Elvis is alive and well somewhere, then we can posit a somewhere where Eve looked at the fruit and thought, "Whoa, I'm not touching that, you sweet-talkin' devil, you!"

It might just be that this is the cosmos in which man fell, and clawed his way up again ... it might just be that we occupy a cosmos in which the roll of the die went against us ... that is, we are one of the universes where evolution took a random wrong 'un. :confused:
 
Devils' Advocate said:
This is certainly the popular view, that man is the best that nature has to offer thus far in its evolution.
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I think the ant offers more to nature and our planet than man has.... actually bacteria that breaks down dead leaves provides more to nature and our planet than man has... come.thi think if it....the oxygen atom....

Seriously, designed by G!d or nature....man is the biggest blight this planet has ever seen.... if this is the best mother nature or G!d can provide....
Thomas said:
The C/O view is that sin has wounded man, but be that as it may, man can still do things pleasing to God.
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Neither are deserving of pleasing.
 
Thomas said:
St Maximus (again) summed it up in the sense that at ground level there is the mineral world, then there is the flora world (mineral+) then the fauna world (mineral+flora+), then the human, then the angelic. Angels are higher than humans because they are pure intellect/spirit, humans are higher than angels because they are a unity of intellect/matter, spirit/body ... so in man all physical creation is present, and man can be consciously present in and to God.
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Yep. This is the traditional view of reality, long held by most people, even scientists for hundreds of years. Turns out, from some philosophical points of view the mineral, flora, fauna are all equal to people in the sense that all of it is important because it only works as a whole. Without any one of the pieces, reality falls apart.

And yet, despite my extremely low opinion of humanity, I will acknowledge that there is within humanity a difference that does set them apart from all the rest of reality. All reality except man moves in the natural rhythms of life. Humans are the only ones who can act beyond the natural order, for better or for worse. I have seen too much worse and I would be a fool to not also say that I have seen better as well.
 
Seems the popular measurement of man is his relationship to the natural world. There are other categories!
 
wil said:
I think the ant offers more to nature and our planet than man has.... actually bacteria that breaks down dead leaves provides more to nature and our planet than man has... come.thi think if it....the oxygen atom....

Seriously, designed by G!d or nature....man is the biggest blight this planet has ever seen.... if this is the best mother nature or G!d can provide....

Neither are deserving of pleasing.
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Left to the ants a hellish Earth would forever remain the same. Humans have the greatest potential to turn this planet from a hell into a heaven. In my opinion you focus too much on humanity's past and current mistakes. Progress can be made, and for those Beneathas that would say there is no progress, I would say remember the words of Asagai in A Raisin in the Sun:

BENEATHA: An end to misery! To stupidity! Don't you see there isn't any real progress, Asagai, there is only one large circle that we march in, around and around, each of us with our own little picture in front of us—our own little mirage that we think is the future.
ASAGAI: That is the mistake.
BENEATHA: What?
ASAGAI: What you just said—about the circle. It isn't a circle—it is simply a long line as in geometry, you know, one that reaches into infinity. And because we cannot see the end—we also cannot see how it changes. And it is very odd but those who see the changes—who dream, who will not give up are called idealists . . . and those who see only the circle—we call them the "realists"!​
 
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Ahanu said:
And it is very odd but those who see the changes—who dream, who will not give up are called idealists . . . and those who see only the circle—we call them the "realists"!
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With respect to Asagai.
those who see the changes—who dream, who will not give up are called idealists,
those who see only the circle—we call them the pessimists,
those who see the past as it is, and who can dream of a different future, tempered by what has come before,
those we call the realists.

Humanity does indeed have the 'potential' to turn this planet from a hell into a heaven. And they are equally capable of turning this hell into a Hell. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results, as the famous saying goes. All too often though, with people, past performance is indicative of future results.

The idealist ignores the patterns that have shaped our species over the last hundred thousand years and believes that somehow, in some way, we will change for the better.

The pessimist ignores the patterns that have shaped our species over the last hundred thousand years and believes that nothing will ever change - insuring nothing will ever change.

The realist observes the patterns that have shaped our species over the last hundred thousand years and believes that change can only happen with actions. Better motivations must be supported, and acted upon, to change the course of our future.
 
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