I think also the ability to do something about the corruption. Martin Luther took advantage of the new invention of the printing press to print and distribute pamphlets against church corruption, and also of course to print and distribute his German language Bible so that ordinary people could read it, whereas before they needed the church authorities to translate and interpret the Latin Bible?
Married Catholic clergy
- Thread starter Thomas
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Luther also used the new media of his time to give voice to the most vicious antisemitism see up to that time.
Just had to mention that one here, since we were discussing corruption. This gets overlooked a lot. Especially by the Lutherans here in Germany.
To get back on topic: Luther married, did anyone mention that yet?
Just had to mention that one here, since we were discussing corruption. This gets overlooked a lot. Especially by the Lutherans here in Germany.
To get back on topic: Luther married, did anyone mention that yet?
He left the Augustinian monastic order and married an ex-nun
I'm glad of our Christian heritage.
There has always been corruption, and it is only when it becomes uppermost that society collapses. It was not good that "the church" became so wealthy, but a lot of good work was done to educate and relieve the "commoners", I would agree.
The catholic faith is a lot stronger than protestant, imo .. but is the Pope infallible .. is anybody?
The prophets of old mentioned in the OT did not practice celibacy.
..but if you can't find a suitable partner, you have little choice
Replace one lot of corruption with another
It is not confined to Christianity .. power, wealth and sex are huge tests for mankind
In the end it boils down to power being a huge test for mankind, I think.Replace one lot of corruption with another
It is not confined to Christianity .. power, wealth and sex are huge tests for mankind
Please understand that I have a lot of problems with 'religion' -- including my own. It is a very important part of my life, but my 'relationship with God' is never going to be limited to the dogmas of the church. God gave me a mind and probably doesn't want me to give it away to any organisation that dictates how I must 'find God'. Religion is the shell of the nut, imo.I'm glad of our Christian heritage.
There has always been corruption, and it is only when it becomes uppermost that society collapses. It was not good that "the church" became so wealthy, but a lot of good work was done to educate and relieve the "commoners", I would agree.
The catholic faith is a lot stronger than protestant, imo .. but is the Pope infallible .. is anybody?
The prophets of old mentioned in the OT did not practice celibacy.
..but if you can't find a suitable partner, you have little choice
But I am a practising Catholic, so I do experience a lot of what people think the Catholic Church is, and not what it is. Many Catholics agree the time for celibacy of the priesthood may be running to the end of its string.
Ok, so here's how it works: you have a king/president, but he can't be everywhere, so he appoints ministers who have his authority when they act officially on his behalf. So a judge at a dinner party does not carry the ministerial authority that he does when he puts on his robe and sits down at his bench in court. Regardless of his personal life, when he acts as a judge he does so as a minister of the state -- he is trained for many years and his rulings and sentences etc, have to be in line with the law of the state.
A Catholic Priest is just an ordinary person at home or at dinner, but when he puts on the 'stole' of office, he becomes a minister of Christ -- he has authority from Christ to administer the sacraments. It doesn't matter what he's really like as a person; when he takes off the stole you don't have to like him.
The Pope is not infallible in all things. But when he makes certain special rulings, as the successor of St Peter as the head of Christ's church on earth -- and only after long consultations with his advisors, etc -- his word is considered by the Church to be infallible. Papal infallibility is not a small thing and it is very seldom used.
Something like that, I think ...
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I quite agree that there has to be a spiritual leader. Even if we don't agree with the rulings, we have to respect them for the sake of unity.
Either that, or take to the hills
However, it is also political in nature .. nothing wrong with that, but the Pope is not automatically a "son of G-d"
[ as in prophet or saint ]
He doesn't have to be. He is elected from a large pool of individuals, as the one best suited to perform the office. Like I said, he's just a human being -- but in his official capacity, when he is functioning in his official capacity, he becomes the minister of Christ.
A policeman doesn't have to be a good person, but when he's at work in his official capacity, he acquires authority from the state. But it doesn't mean he can do what he likes. There are lots of checks and balances. He's trained and constrained to perform his function?
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Say I ask a priest to bless my rosary. I don't have to know him at all. Or I can know him quite well and dislike him as a person. Maybe he drinks too much. Or tells bad jokes. Doesn't make any difference. I give him my rosary, and he puts on the stole, and then he blesses my rosary. Then he takes off the stole.
So it's not the priest who gives the blessing. The priest puts on the stole and blesses my rosary in the name of Christ. The blessing is from Christ. It comes via the priest, as a minister of Christ.
EDIT: Like going to a government office to get a stamp on my passport: it doesn't matter which government employee actually stamps it. The stamp is authority from 'above'.
So it's not the priest who gives the blessing. The priest puts on the stole and blesses my rosary in the name of Christ. The blessing is from Christ. It comes via the priest, as a minister of Christ.
EDIT: Like going to a government office to get a stamp on my passport: it doesn't matter which government employee actually stamps it. The stamp is authority from 'above'.
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All mind boggling to me.
I venerate some preacher as a really good man and for 20 yrs I hang on every word he says. Then he ends up in jail for some bad thing, and that church falls apart, along with my faith.
A Catholic priest will help explain to you what the church teaches. You can take or leave, it's not his personal opinion. He's highly trained. Then you read between the lines and make your own life decisions ...
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Still just mind boggling to me...it is OK.,it evidently is not to you.
A priest will try to be a good person, just like any other Christian, but that's not what makes him.a priest. It's an office conferred on him. So if he fails, the Church goes on.
In spite of failed clergy.
Are you saying a judge has to be a good person in order to perform his function as a state official?
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CobblersApprentice
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A Catholic muses upon The Church, from a letter by Thomas Merton to Rosemary Radford Ruether, Jan 29th 1967......
"To begin with the Church: I have no problem about 'leaving' or anything..............But the real Church. I am just simply browned off with and afraid of Catholics.........All Catholics.........There are a few I can stand........I like all the nice well-meaning people who go to Mass and want things to get better and so on, but I understand Zen Buddhists better than I do them........But this is awful because where is the Church and where am I in the Church?...........Have you an idea of the Church? An idea......in which projects and crusades (ancient or modern) or ideas (new and old) or policies or orthodoxies (old or new) don't stand in the way between people. Is the Church a community of people who love each other or a big dogfight where you do your religious business, seeking meanwhile your friends somewhere else?..........As to the Bible, I read it in peace and fruitlessly........I know this is a pretty bad letter (guilt about saying all this) But I do wonder at times if the Church is real at all. I believe it, you know. But I wonder if I am nuts to do so. Am I part of a great big hoax? I don't explain myself as well as I would like to: there is a real sense of and confidence in an underlying reality, the presence of Christ in the world which I don't doubt for an instance. But is that presence where we are all saying it is? We are all pointing (in various directions) and my dreadful feeling is that we are all pointing wrong.....I have no problem with my vocation. "
(As found in Volume 1 of The Collected Letters of Thomas Merton, "The Hidden Ground of Love", sub-titled "Letters on Religious Experience and Social Concerns")
"To begin with the Church: I have no problem about 'leaving' or anything..............But the real Church. I am just simply browned off with and afraid of Catholics.........All Catholics.........There are a few I can stand........I like all the nice well-meaning people who go to Mass and want things to get better and so on, but I understand Zen Buddhists better than I do them........But this is awful because where is the Church and where am I in the Church?...........Have you an idea of the Church? An idea......in which projects and crusades (ancient or modern) or ideas (new and old) or policies or orthodoxies (old or new) don't stand in the way between people. Is the Church a community of people who love each other or a big dogfight where you do your religious business, seeking meanwhile your friends somewhere else?..........As to the Bible, I read it in peace and fruitlessly........I know this is a pretty bad letter (guilt about saying all this) But I do wonder at times if the Church is real at all. I believe it, you know. But I wonder if I am nuts to do so. Am I part of a great big hoax? I don't explain myself as well as I would like to: there is a real sense of and confidence in an underlying reality, the presence of Christ in the world which I don't doubt for an instance. But is that presence where we are all saying it is? We are all pointing (in various directions) and my dreadful feeling is that we are all pointing wrong.....I have no problem with my vocation. "
(As found in Volume 1 of The Collected Letters of Thomas Merton, "The Hidden Ground of Love", sub-titled "Letters on Religious Experience and Social Concerns")
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CobblersApprentice
Guest
We all perceive in our own way. Myself, I see no "failure" in Merton's letter at all. I would say that "success" (if we wish to use that word) comes via human doubt and weakness. Not so sure about the "failed clergy" - depends perhaps on just what their failure consists of.
I understand, thanks for this!
Something about myself:
Me, I don't like hierarchies of power. States, corporations, churches, it's all the same, in this respect. The insignia, the robes, the logo (as in a corporate logo), the stamps the sacraments, the license agreements... the structures which will slot in a fresh human being once the previous one stopped functioning and was spit out... it is all inimical to me.
I see the appeal, the promise of stability and care-taking, and the sense of awe in the face of powerful structures.
I have seen the ugly side once too often, the sanctioned violence, the truncheon, the scent of mace, the threat of unemployment, the social marginalization of not submitting to power, to the petty tyrants, the big tyrants, authority, wealth, and class.
So, what I would do - and I acknowledge your inviolable right to do what you do, and do not judge you or demean you - I would ask a good friend to bless my rosary.
Our best friend is G-d
I also don't like putting all my eggs in one basket when it comes to scholars/priests .. I do not see them as intermediaries, but as advisors who might be wrong. Like Luther, I would question them and want to know why they made their decisions.
Yet, we need leaders. This subject is closely connected with secularism. There is much to be said for the wisdom of ANY political leader.
Power comes from G-d. If a nation appoints an immoral leader, then it bears the consequence