Am I a Christian?

[usernamed]

Sorry I just hjad a look and that should of meant Daniel 2.43

(Im trying to type on a mobile phone and I am finding it quite difficult to be honest, both to quote specific parts and to keeping the relevent parts Im supposed to be replying too so please accept my apologies.cheers)

Bump

 

[usernamed]

Check out http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

It's a long list ... and I bet there's not one reference there that actually supports Eisenman's hypothesis.

I agree.
100% and that might not be a mistake (considerations given to purpose).
Remember these "learned" people will not have the option of claiming innocence in ignorance, they claim their right to give advice for the sole reason they believe they have the knowledge because they have the access to the source material and claim to have the gift of interpretation and thus the authority backed by mans accolades. Conspiracy nuts are meant to be looked at as mental cases and it helps clean the area up because people look at the casualties as opposed to the tiniest clues on the ground hidden in plain sight.
Im perhaps a bit cynical of Eisenman but I give my reasoning and I don't delay to put these figures under the spotlight, this is the beauty of "equality" we can now be allowed to judge people on their OWN terms, their laws and using their OWN words....the only way they will understand!!!
The truth fears no scrutiny, so why would any scholar try to hide things?

Edit:

"This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors."

I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

[usernamed]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eisenman

Ok, so what I'm getting is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written after the death of Jesus and that Paul corrupted the original 'Jewish revolutionary' Christianity of James the brother of Jesus, into a universal religion of peace? When all is said and done, this is the kernel of the argument?


Sorry, no I edited my own post, fearing to cause offence.

No worries and I will not take offence. I prefer to forgive and be forgiven myself and thanks for the kind words.

Yes. Basically the old school teaching was being corrupted by a new school of thought that both added and took away from the old school of thoughtl, it brought in new "teachers" who had found violence and coersion a more speedy way for things to be brought up to date as it were, then you have the obfuscation of the written history being found at an inconvenient time. This is how I understand it as a synopsis...add to that the riteous anger given to correction that the old (or original depending on where you find yourself agreeing or disagreeing) school who did not have the popularity of opinion or were in the best position in advantage to undoctrinate/indoctrinate the masses.
New concepts were at the time being weighed upon material gains and being balanced with ie for or against on the scales of spiritual health in regards to eternal salvation. Church and State not yet welded together by the Romans and the welded area being to hot to touch...
So to speak.

 

[RJM]

But I do pay attention to him on account that he alone played a big part in making the access of the scrolls attainable to the general public

I wonder. Certainly Robert Eisman would like us to think so. I doubt it will stand up to a deeper check?

EDIT
I've done a bit of background and in fact it seems Robert Eisman had quite a big influence (in getting photographs of the scrolls published). I stand corrected. Give the man his due.

 

[usernamed]

I wonder. Certainly Robert Eisman would like us to think so. I doubt it will stand up to a deeper check?

EDIT
I've done a bit of background and in fact it seems Robert Eisman had quite a big influence. I stand corrected. Give the man his due.

Yes. My thoughts exactly.
Doesn't make him (or myself) immune to scrutiny, but his hypothesis is not very mainstream, which might be why he is appealing to some people who have an interest in biblical history, archaeology and the period that has ALL parties involved .....that very time period gets the Jews/Christians/Romans/Edomite Idumaeans juices going!!

 

[RJM]

Yes. My thoughts exactly.
Doesn't make him (or myself) immune to scrutiny, but his hypothesis is not very mainstream, which might be why he is appealing to some people who have an interest in biblical history, archaeology and the period that has ALL parties involved (the very time period gets the Jews/Christians/Romans/Edomite Idumaeans juices going !!)

Oh no. I don't support Eisman's conclusions or conspiracy theory. For a start he rejects the dating methods because they don't fit his theory.

I do accept that he was influential in getting fireworks under backsides and getting the photos of the scrolls out there, however.

My reference is 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Today' by James C. Vanderkam.

He is a professor of Hebrew Scriptures at the University of Notre Dame and is a member of the international team charged with editing and translating the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[usernamed]

Oh no. I don't support Eisman's conclusions or conspiracy theory. For a start he rejects the carbon dating etc, methods because they don't fit his theory.

I do accept that he was influential in getting fireworks under backsides and getting the photos of the scrolls out there, however.

My reference is 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Today' by James C. Vanderkam.

He is a professor of Hebrew Scriptures at the University of Notre Dame and is a member of the international team charged with editing and translating the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Not defending his "anti" carbon dating stance because I do not claim to have the scholarly expertise in this field of research, however, when deciding a date within a range of say 100 years, (which might over lap the pre-Christian period and Jesus' ministry and while including the whole life of St Paul) how accurate can this dating method be when you consider the varience/tolerance that the experts of this field offer themselves?
Do we carbon date the cave? The ink? or the paper? The coins....?
The mainstream claim is that the community that wrote the scrolls, lived in or were resident at the caves, as opposed to say (example...) the scrolls being carried off from the temple library before it was fired, to be purposely hidden, I do not know.
Have we any evidence to show the development of the community, use of fire, a water source (it is the desert after all...) any evidence of any requisites for life that would be needed to sustain a period of time to produce the scrolls....printing clips, ink, pottery etc...that should be the bigger bowl of contention but again the narrative is guided by the "scholar" and at the mercy of the media...
Does ANYONE have a dog in this race?
All we have is mainstream narratives and a possibly chosen renegade archeologist to fight the good fight from the other perspective. Seems very limited to me but Im skeptical and untrusting perhaps...

 

[RJM]

Not defending his "anti" carbon dating stance because I do not claim to have the scholarly expertise in this field of research, however, when deciding a date within a range of say 100 years (which might over lap the pre-Christian period and Jesus' ministry and while including the whole life of St Paul) how accurate can this dating method be when you consider the varience/tolerance that the experts of this field offer themselves?

Well carbon dating is quite sophisticated nowadays. Paleography and accelerator mass spectrometry were also used I believe. Don't ask me what they are. Most scholars seem to reject the 'post Jesus' origin of the scrolls and Eisman as I said seems a bit desperate to confirm his theory. I personally think it's hokum. I may be wrong. You will no doubt stick with it because you want to, lol ...

 

[usernamed]

All as good as the people that rely on it for what ever reason I guess.
I relied on gas chromatography during my botanical chemistry days, but it's all a bit of a haze

I would like the truth, what ever that may be, I'm not naive enough to rely 100% on other people so I feel dependant somehow, besides, how can anyone know when so much is thrown to "leave it to us experts you dumbed down clown...we know our stuff..nothing to see here.....move along now....

 

[RJM]

I would like the truth.
What ever that may be, how can anyone know when so much is thrown to "leave it to us you dumbed down clown...we know our stuff..nothing to see here.....move along now....

Ok. But it goes after a conspiracy of scholars and scientists. Of course there are pressures in academia and in science to conform -- jobs are on the line and families have to be supported. However, in general, when it comes to scientists and academia, I tend to accept the majority judgement.

They're very clever and mentally independent and highly skilled people. I can't really imagine them all signing up to a sort of cabal, across disciplines. Not really. Now if we were talking about ordinary people in the street -- Boris supporters, for instance -- it would be different. Hey, did I just say that?

 

[usernamed]

Ok. But it goes after a conspiracy of scholars and scientists. Of course there are pressures in academia and in science to conform -- jobs are on the line and families have to be supported. However, in general, when it comes to scientists and academia, I tend to accept the majority judgement.

They're very clever and mentally independent and highly skilled people. I can't really imagine them all signing up to a sort of cabal, across disciplines. Not really. Now if we were talking about ordinary people in the street -- Boris supporters, for instance -- it would be different. Hey, did I just say that?

I agree, but how far can ANYONE be manipulated by the threat of results that are effectively pitted against their ability to hold onto a career amongst competition, ensure a steady access to food and shelter (and other things good or dubious that networking amongst the elite affords them).
The intellectual part could just be the hoop jumping part (including those happy uni days) or acquiring the much in demand "yes man" status.
Some of the best archeologists I have worked with still had to conform to the subservience of hierarchy while others claimed the kudos for the intelligence they had authority over...employment law: the greatest testing ground for compliance!!

 

[RJM]

I agree, but how far can ANYONE be manipulated by the threat of results that are effectively pitted against anyones ability to hold onto a career, ensure a steady access to food and shelter.
The intellectual part could just be the hoop jumping part (including those happy uni days) or acquiring the much in demand "yes man" status.
Some of the best archeologists I have worked with still had to conform to the subservience of hierarchy while others claimed the kudos for the intelligence they had authority over.

Ok. But it rests on a conspiracy in the early church to change the message of 'revolutionary Jesus' to a Christian gospel of peace forced through by Paul. In order to do this it rests on a conspiracy to invent the Jesus of the gospels by fellow conspirators at odds with the James lot. And to achieve this it relies on a strange reading and disputed dating of some of the important documents Dead Sea Scrolls, actually turning them on their head, and relying on Eisman's view of the 'pierced Messiah' fragment?

So it wants to turn EVERYTHING upside down --and of course removing Jesus from the gospels -- against the vast combined wisdom of the other scholars and scientists involved?

 

[usernamed]

Ok. But it rests on a conspiracy in the early church to change the message of 'revolutionary Jesus' to a Christian gospel of peace forced through by Paul. In order to do this it rests on a conspiracy to invent the Jesus of the gospels by fellow conspirators at odds with the James lot. And to achieve this it relies on a strange reading and disputed dating of some of the important documents Dead Sea Scrolls, actually turning them on their head, and relying on Eisman's view of the 'pierced Messiah' fragment?

So it wants to turn EVERYTHING upside down --and of course removing Jesus from the gospels -- against the vast combined wisdom of the other scholars and scientists involved?

The water is muddy!
This is forcing the mind to acknowledge the limitation of logical probability, or that my perception I wish to share, is having the understanding of how deficient this whole discovery is. Interestingly enough the variables that are never allowed to be used in the humanist science (while I might still accept they can and do play an important part in making conclusions) lacks biblical/scriptual knowledge, lack the faith by instruction, the whole thing argues around the validity of Jesus, James etc when the obvious choice might be to just let the "righteous teacher" give us the lesson. I think these painfully intellectual elitist minds are simply not humble enough to agree they "do not know" and I cannot help think you need to be in the classroom not looking at this from outside the school gates. The consistant flow of the bible, creation, geneological lessons regarding the emnity between important charachters and the acknowledging of concepts like prophecy ends with Paul and until we are able to look into this without relying on the exterior methods that simply yield zero results and conclusions all we have is a confused dialogue, perhaps that is the whole point!
Alot rests upon Pauline scriptures, whether we are all in agreement over his role and his charachter is one thing entirely, there is no disputing the fact that Jesus condemned the earthly powers as under Satans dominion while Paul say's the opposite, all governments are agents of God and you should cough up and welcome enslavement by them. No one can really avoid the Pauline question and the Scrolls are perhaps the only thing that offer the clearest distinction to this power struggle.

 

[RJM]

The water is muddy!
This is forcing the mind to acknowledge the limitation of logical probability, or that my perception I wish to share, is having the understanding of how deficient this whole discovery is. Interestingly enough the variables that are never allowed to be used in the humanist science (while I might still accept they can and do play an important part in making conclusions) lacks biblical/scriptual knowledge, lack the faith by instruction, the whole thing argues around the validity of Jesus, James etc when the obvious choice might be to just let the "righteous teacher" give us the lesson. I think these painfully intellectual elitist minds are simply not humble enough to agree they "do not know" and I cannot help think you need to be in the classroom not looking at this from outside the school gates. The consistant flow of the bible, creation, geneological lessons regarding the emnity between important charachters and the acknowledging of concepts like prophecy ends with Paul and until we are able to look into this without relying on the exterior methods that simply yield zero results and conclusions all we have is a confused dialogue, perhaps that is the whole point!
Alot rests upon Pauline scriptures, whether we are all in agreement over his role and his charachter is one thing entirely, there is no disputing the fact that Jesus condemned the earthly powers as under Satans dominion while Paul say's the opposite, all governments are agents of God and you should cough up and welcome enslavement by them. No one can really avoid the Pauline question and the Scrolls are perhaps the only thing that offer the clearest distinction to this power struggle.

Ok. So here's my question: if you can refer to Jesus' life and words, what parts of the gospels do you want to keep, and what parts to lose?

 

[RJM]

Jesus condemned the earthly powers as under Satans dominion while Paul say's the opposite

For instance this isn't close to the meaning expressed either by Jesus, or by Paul. Jesus' message is to save your soul, not to take on the world. Paul says exactly the same?

 

[usernamed]

Ok. So here's my question: if you can refer to Jesus' life and words, what parts of the gospels do you want to keep, and what parts to lose?

I rely on the original testement upto the end of Jesus' ministry. I am struggling with Acts of the Apostles (written by Luke?) and Pauls letters, but then I get reassurance from John,James and the book of Revelation. To answer in detail is probably far beyond the scope of this thread but a good question.

 

[usernamed]

For instance this isn't close to the meaning expressed either by Jesus, or by Paul. Jesus' message is to save your soul, not to take on the world. Paul says exactly the same?

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I WILL GIVE YOU,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”


Or

“My kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest"

"The meak SHALL inherit the earth"

"The lost sheep of ISRAEL" (the decendants of Jacob)...

Where are the Edomites now? What are they upto nowadays?

 

[Cino]

Great discussion, I really enjoy reading along!

Ok. But it rests on a conspiracy in the early church to change the message of 'revolutionary Jesus' to a Christian gospel of peace forced through by Paul. In order to do this it rests on a conspiracy to invent the Jesus of the gospels by fellow conspirators at odds with the James lot. And to achieve this it relies on a strange reading and disputed dating of some of the important documents Dead Sea Scrolls, actually turning them on their head, and relying on Eisman's view of the 'pierced Messiah' fragment?

To throw in some food for thought: We have an example of how an initially rebellious, local, armed movement got turned into a very peaceful if small worldwide religious movement relatively recently in history: The progression from the Babis to Baha'is. And the message was radically changed. Baha'u'llah got rid of a large number of laws which the Bab instituted, and the writings and teachings of the latter eclipse those of the former. And yet there is continuity there.

This proves nothing about early Christianity and Pauls role in working out Christian theology, but it does show that a religion can shift its focus from armed political activism to peaceful social activism within a generation and by spreading to places beyond its origin.

 

[wil]

Is Santa real?...Ive seen images of him today in a shop

In 5th grade my son told his classmates he had proof that Santa was real, " there is no way my dad would buy all those gifts!"

 

[wil]

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I WILL GIVE YOU,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

A little like offering Bill Gates did a computer.