Some concerning trends in our world regarding religious freedom

TheLightWithin

TheLightWithin

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Cherish religious freedom: yours, mine, everyone's
Though this has a political angle to it, at it's heart it's about religious freedom - who can have it, who cherishes it for all, and who doesn't.
I did check in with iBrian about it and we decided to see how it goes.
2 related videos, one a reaction to the other.
The first is Rev Ed Trevors, YouTube (in case it comes up unavailable on our site) and is titled "MAGA Christian Nationalists Want Gov't to Take Your Church" and YES, the extremists he is reacting to literally say that and worse. The said extremists (including someone named Joel Gibbon, who I guess is famous/notorious? for a number of extreme views.

Here is Rev Ed Trevors video titled "MAGA Christian Nationalists Want Gov't to Take Your Church"

Here is the video Rev Ed Trevors is responding to by Right Wing Watch called RWW: Christian Nationalists Call On The Government To Seize "Wicked" "Apostate" Churches

Here is a Christian publication that quotes Joel Webbons on this issue
www.christianpost.com

Texas Pastor Joel Webbon claims there's 'no place' for non-Christians in American leadership

A Texas pastor and YouTuber has claimed that the United States belongs exclusively to Christians, and that means non-Christians shouldn t hold public office
www.christianpost.com www.christianpost.com

I am keeping this very tightly on the topic of religious freedom.
Used to be this kind of talk was nowhere to be heard in America, at least, not the America I thought I knew.
So if anybody with real power had these views, that could be construed as a real threat.
Should this be considered a threat? Is anybody untroubled by this?
 
I think its hysteria based on a few people with radical ideas.. not unlike the athiest groups demanding that the ten commandments or any reference to God being taken down in government buildings. The MAGA reference is always used to target conservative Christians in a bad light. Its tiring and insulting.
 
LOL, as a European, this is very much your world ...

My only comment is my favoured theologian, David Bentley Hart, has spoken of his desire to relocate to the UK – he has a British wife.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I think its hysteria based on a few people with radical ideas.. not unlike the athiest groups demanding that the ten commandments or any reference to God being taken down in government buildings. The MAGA reference is always used to target conservative Christians in a bad light. Its tiring and insulting.
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If a population is large enough even a small percentage can be a lot of people. Here in the USA our adult population is approx. 267 million. If 99.5% reject the, how shall I put, less than mainstream positions of a Joel Webbon, that still leaves 1.33 million people standing with him.
 
This is scary, closing 50,000 church buildings and taking their property. Where will the money go, will they donate all the money to the poor and oppressed. Or will the money end up in the pockets of Trump, Musk and their henchmen?
 
Trust me that my eyes are wide open. I take you tube videos with a grain of salt because everyone has an opinion and with social media everyone has a platform. I still believe that you the majority opinion rules which is how we ended up with the current administration just like we ended up with the previous administration.

I do believe theres a level of hysteria going on right now on many levels and 100ish days into the term. Religious freedom being one of them. I do not see this extreme measure happening. Like i said though.. my eyes are wide open.

@EricPH please keep political opinions out of this per the OP or this thread will get shut down.
 
Worldly power taking over faith or religious leaders taking worldly power hardly ever gets well.

My religion is biased in this, as Muhammad (p.b.u.h) actually did the latter, as there were no stately institutions in East Arabia in his time. From where, there have always been goveners who instrumentalised religion for their worldly power, and at the same time struggling against religious people who may take over the power.
And those religious people who succeeded in taking over the power all failed tremendously.

Both results in a governmental and religious leaders alliance who impose obedience to them instead of God. But we should serve God before all people. Whether you read the Tanach, the Gospel or the Quran, all confirm that.

You Christians take heed, read the Gospel and do not follow the false prophets. I prefer a confessing atheist who is honest and respectful to a hypocrite who claims to be chosen by god (intentional lower case, because it's nothing to do with Him) but only searches to be glorified in this world.

You can close all churches and follow Jesus in what he said. Or leave them all open and follow Jesus as good as you can.
You can also close 50 churches and follow the devil with his illusions.
 
In order to control people, you need to take away the structures that help maintain their identity. You need to take away the groups that help them be strong and independent. If you want to control the masses, you need to convince them that you are their god and their only provider. So you turn neighbor against neighbor, family member against family member, and you get rid of religious organizations. In doing so, a corrupt leader becomes a god. As long as the corrupt leader is viewed as a god, he or she can do whatever they want. This has happened all throughout human history, and it is happening today. It's not just one political party either.
 
Thomas said:
LOL, as a European, this is very much your world ...

My only comment is my favoured theologian, David Bentley Hart, has spoken of his desire to relocate to the UK – he has a British wife.
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Hmm... Not really feeling the lol ... but this joel webbon and co are definitely the motherlode of bad ideas. *

But as to whose world this belongs? The truth is, ideas are not great respecters of borders or oceans. Our main defense from bad ideas is better ideas.

It's a very good thing you feel some confidence in the better ideas your society upholds...I'm glad for that. I used to think my society did too.

* (mr webbon's ideas are extremely un-American ideas as well and yet here we are -and America being what it is we support his legal right to say such horrible things, regardless of his disrespect for others' religious and voting rights)
 
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Sadly also the way joel webbon and co appear to be the real life version of the worst things that the christian right is perceived to represent. he appears to be a real life version of the distorted, cartoonish image many progressive, liberals, or even moderates hold of the evangelical world. When I have attended progressive Christian churches, when it's spoken about at all, most attendees have said they think that the christian right really holds women or religious (or other) minorities in low esteem. So this bunch, mr webbon and co, they prove the critics correct. At the very least, give great credence to those who think the worst of the so called religious so called right, which in many minds is becoming fully conflated with so called christian so called nationalism.

The desire to hurt other Christians or consider them not Christian... brings to mind the worst of church and Western history. :confused: :mad:
 
I am presenting the following concern with the caveat that it is a speculative what-if - so far, nothing more

That said - if mr webb and co's bad ideas gained any traction whatsoever, what would the consequences be?

I would hate to see the kind of intra-Christian religious strife like that of Christian Europe centuries ago, that I thought we had put behind us and learned from.

Further, there is an obvious possibility that mr webbs ideas, if ever put into the remotest attempts at action- or even if the ideas gained traction -could bring on backlash that could affect all Christians - a catastrophe that doesn't need to be.

I think mr webb needs a civics lesson. From whom? To whom would he listen? Fellow Christians? Only men? Large numbers? Nobody? I don't know.
 
EricPH said:
This is scary, closing 50,000 church buildings and taking their property. Where will the money go, will they donate all the money to the poor and oppressed. Or will the money end up in the pockets of Trump, Musk and their henchmen?
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Precisely.
Or mr webb himself, perhaps.
Can't trust the motives of anybody so nakedly seeking power, and to outright harm and disenfranchise other people. He doesn't even try to hide it. His evil is out in the open.
 
TheLightWithin said:
those who think the worst of the so called religious so called right
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Replying to my own comment to expand -

For all that some moderates, liberals, and progressives may shake their heads about or openly critique the hard-right evangelicals, and maybe said their values seem unChristian, I have not once heard a single person say they wanted to close their churches or take their property.
 
In reflection i recall the actions of the westborough baptist church and the extreme actions that so called Christians committed at abortion clinics even earlier in history when Christians have persecuted other Christians. I dont think this is a new thing to have one extreme group target other groups they deem apostate. Look at the war between the Catholics and Protestants.

One of my favorite teachers that has since gone to be with the Lord believed that prior to the Lords return that the Church would be persecuted by other so called Christians. What that entails i do not know. I know the enemy seeks to cause division in the Church and this is what it looks like.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Hmm... Not really feeling the lol ... but this joel webbon and co are definitely the motherlode of bad ideas. *
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Perhaps a bit glib on my part ... we are all dancing on the edge of bad ideas at the moment, the US has no monopoly on that!

It's often said the US does things bigger and better, but sadly the same applies to bad ideas ...

TheLightWithin said:
But as to whose world this belongs? The truth is, ideas are not great respecters of borders or oceans. Our main defense from bad ideas is better ideas.
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Oh, indeed ... the pendulum is swinging to the right, at the moment, all across the world ...

TheLightWithin said:
It's a very good thing you feel some confidence in the better ideas your society upholds...I'm glad for that. I used to think my society did too.
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I wish I did, but I grow more doubtful.

TheLightWithin said:
* (mr webbon's ideas are extremely un-American ideas as well and yet here we are -and America being what it is we support his legal right to say such horrible things, regardless of his disrespect for others' religious and voting rights)
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That you have come so far away from what the Statue of Liberty represents is, or should be, a salutary warning to all that things can go awry.
 
moralorel said:
In order to control people, you need to take away the structures that help maintain their identity. You need to take away the groups that help them be strong and independent. If you want to control the masses, you need to convince them that you are their god and their only provider. So you turn neighbor against neighbor, family member against family member, and you get rid of religious organizations. In doing so, a corrupt leader becomes a god. As long as the corrupt leader is viewed as a god, he or she can do whatever they want. This has happened all throughout human history, and it is happening today. It's not just one political party either.
Click to expand...
The time such people are really supported by enthusiasm is usually shorter than their reign. After the short period, he reigns on fear and lies.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Replying to my own comment to expand -

For all that some moderates, liberals, and progressives may shake their heads about or openly critique the hard-right evangelicals, and maybe said their values seem unChristian, I have not once heard a single person say they wanted to close their churches or take their property.
Click to expand...
It has happened. Did your father ever tell you about the time when California seized the Worldwide Church of God? Some progressive followers who were kicked out of the church made up some lies about the church's financial practices. The state came into the church headquarters and started seizing documents. They admitted that they didn't have any evidence that the church had violated any laws. So they came there with a warrant to search the church for evidence. The state appointed someone as the head of the church for the duration of the investigation. They found nothing. But they charged the church $200,000 in fees for the search. True story.

In my state a Lutheran church had a doctrinal issue. A small group of progressive followers felt that Jesus Christ should no longer be considered an actual person, rather he should be considered to be a symbol. They sued the church. The state got involved and stripped the church of its leadership. They placed these new progressive members in charge of the church. Another true story.

Somehow it does happen.
 
moralorel said:
It has happened. Did your father ever tell you about the time when California seized the Worldwide Church of God? Some progressive followers who were kicked out of the church made up some lies about the church's financial practices. The state came into the church headquarters and started seizing documents. They admitted that they didn't have any evidence that the church had violated any laws. So they came there with a warrant to search the church for evidence. The state appointed someone as the head of the church for the duration of the investigation. They found nothing. But they charged the church $200,000 in fees for the search. True story.

In my state a Lutheran church had a doctrinal issue. A small group of progressive followers felt that Jesus Christ should no longer be considered an actual person, rather he should be considered to be a symbol. They sued the church. The state got involved and stripped the church of its leadership. They placed these new progressive members in charge of the church. Another true story.

Somehow it does happen.
Click to expand...
I thought just the U.S was a place where anyone could found a church and preach no matter what.
In Switzerland, in most Cantons (like federal states, but much smaller than an U.S state), there are three churches that have a special status (taxed with the cantonal tax, with a prescribed democratic structure and non -confessional social tasks). All other congregations have the legal form of an association, where it is prescribed that the members elect the board every year, and it is obligatory to have a constitution that regulates the competences, the procedure to enter the association and to exclude someone from the association (a right to leave by free will is granted as well) which can only be changed with a qualified majority of the members. Anyone has to obey the legislation and can be sentenced, but even a person who is in jail can be and stay member of the board; he or she could theoretically even be elected member of the parliament or the government, CEO or whatever. But, off course, such person is likely not (re-)elected except the majority of the voters thinks that the penalty was injustice or accepts regret and atonement.
 
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