One God, Many Paths

[muhammad_isa]

Since ages, but change is a part of it.

I do not understand how something that is changed constantly by your ancestors can
be called "guidance" ..

..but that's me .. I seek something more concrete. I think that that is the issue here.
i.e. we are unlikely to find something that we are not looking for

 

[TheLightWithin]

What are you calling "science"? If it's the original reports of researchers, or what the researchers themselves think about it, that is not what I'm talking about, because that is not what people are calling "science" in public discussions. What people are calling "science" in public discussions is what journalists and various factions are saying that the science says. They are all contradicting each other, and each person chooses the source that's saying what they want to hear, to tell them "what science says."

What are you calling "science"?

That's what I asked?

How is "science" (how are you defining science, by the way?)

LOL we were both asking one another what we were calling science? That's too funny.

Anyhoo, I kinda deplore the overgeneral use of the word "science" to mean a rather undefined monolith.
Realistically, when people refer to science, they COULD be referring either to the scientific method, the body of knowledge that has come out of the scientific method, the bodies of publications of scientific studies, the people and institutions that engage in scientific research, or something else, such as the applications of science or the public understanding of "science". These are overlapping things (especially the publications and body of knowledge) but not precisely the same thing.

I think what you meant or were trying to mean is that people may choose to cull from bits and pieces of information to find studies that seem to support what they hope is true or prefer is true. Which is not to say that sets of scientific studies are routinely deliberately developed just to tell someone what they want to hear, which is what I thought you might have been implying.

 

[TheLightWithin]

What do you mean by that .. that multiple people 'update' it constantly?
Why? On what authority?

In Christianity, the development of different denominations is a form of updating. People relied on the authority of the Bible and their spiritual leaders and the perception that the existing institutions were not accurately representing the Bible, so they split off to form denominations that they thought were more true to the Bible, which they held as the authority.

And you could say, the authority of the communities or individuals to engage in interpretation of sacred scripture and tradition.

Secular society updates constantly, often on the authority of individuals families communities or institutions living their lives and solving problems, or governments who are seen to have authority or voters who have the authority to vote them in in democratic societies.... thus updating society on the authority of formal authorities, institutions, reinterpretations of traditions, the innovation of individuals or the wisdom of crowds, or all of the above. Sometimes religions have a problem with society updating when the ideas baked into the religion hold that the religion is perfect, the word of G-d, and G-d never changes, leading to consternation and conflict.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I do not understand how something that is changed constantly by your ancestors can
be called "guidance" ..

An ability to adapt to changing circumstances, and demonstrating how, is most definitely a constructive form of guidance.

 

[Longfellow]

What do you mean by that .. that multiple people 'update' it constantly?
Why? On what authority?

What does this have to do with your reply "What guidance is required when our duty is clearly mentioned and we have been following it since ages?" .. which implies that it does not change.

Yeah, people themselves change the rules with passage of time, update it. Society at one time did not accept inter-caste marriages, now it is not rare. Polygamy is not prohibited in Hinduism, but government (i.e., majority opinion) outlawed it. Since ages, but change is a part of it.

I do not understand how something that is changed constantly by your ancestors can
be called "guidance" ..

What I see that Aupmanyav might be saying is that he has all the guidance he needs from his society, without needing what people are claiming came from some god or gods. What the guidance says changes, but the way that he gets that guidance is what Hindus have been following since ages.

..but that's me .. I seek something more concrete. I think that that is the issue here.
i.e. we are unlikely to find something that we are not looking for

I'm not sure if I'm following you, but if you think that people are any more likely to find what they are not looking for in the Bible than they are in Aupmanyav's sources, I disagree.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Secular society updates constantly..

All govts. do .. and it depends on the people in them, their education and beliefs, on
the direction of change.

 

[muhammad_isa]

An ability to adapt to changing circumstances, and demonstrating how, is most definitely a constructive form of guidance.

Changing circumstances? What changes are necessary to turn away from the laws of G-d?
Even in war, there should be moral decisions made .. but as more and more people turn
away from G-d, we see the consequences .. mass slaughter and madness in nations not
at war .. treachery while making 'deals' .. need I go on.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if you think that people are any more likely to find what they are not looking for in the Bible..

I mean that if people think that they are not in need of Divine guidance, then they will
ignore it .. or perhaps even oppose it !
Like Pharaoh .. he opposed it .. he oppressed others, because he thought he knew better.

 

[Longfellow]

That's what I asked?

LOL we were both asking one another what we were calling science? That's too funny.

Anyhoo, I kinda deplore the overgeneral use of the word "science" to mean a rather undefined monolith.
Realistically, when people refer to science, they COULD be referring either to the scientific method, the body of knowledge that has come out of the scientific method, the bodies of publications of scientific studies, the people and institutions that engage in scientific research, or something else, such as the applications of science or the public understanding of "science". These are overlapping things (especially the publications and body of knowledge) but not precisely the same thing.

I think what you meant or were trying to mean is that people may choose to cull from bits and pieces of information to find studies that seem to support what they hope is true or prefer is true. Which is not to say that sets of scientific studies are routinely deliberately developed just to tell someone what they want to hear, which is what I thought you might have been implying.

Right, what I was saying was not about original reports of research, or what the researchers themselves think about them. We never see any of that in public discussions, because it's mostly behind paywalls, and when people are debating about social issues they don't know, and don't want to know, anything about that. Like I said, they choose whatever sources are saying what they want to hear, to tell them "what science says," which is very different from what the reports say and what the researchers themselves think about it.

 

[TheLightWithin]

All govts. do .. and it depends on the people in them, their education and beliefs, on
the direction of change.

Not just governments but societies, cultures

 

[TheLightWithin]

Changing circumstances? What changes are necessary to turn away from the laws of G-d?
Even in war, there should be moral decisions made .. but as more and more people turn
away from G-d, we see the consequences .. mass slaughter and madness in nations not
at war .. treachery while making 'deals' .. need I go on.

As society has changed, people interpret texts differently
In the American Civil War, the Confederacy used the example of slavery in the bible to... defend slavery
It is no longer common for people to take the example of slavery in the scriptures as condoning or prescriptive.

 

[TheLightWithin]

Right, what I was saying was not about original reports of research, or what the researchers themselves think about them. We never see any of that in public discussions, because it's mostly behind paywalls,

There are free access journals, and many university libraries still maintain print journals in the stacks.
Scientific research is not completely hidden from the public.

 

[Longfellow]

Changing circumstances? What changes are necessary to turn away from the laws of G-d?
Even in war, there should be moral decisions made .. but as more and more people turn
away from G-d, we see the consequences .. mass slaughter and madness in nations not
at war .. treachery while making 'deals' .. need I go on.

Have you ever heard of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and Salem?

 

[Yahweh kid]

Theology in the writings... how does that change what I said?
The writings do not say trinity, however.

You said that Christians added the Trinity.... it almost seem as if you are suggesting that Christians added to the Word. The word Trinity might not be mentioned in the Bible, but the triune God existed from the beginning. Yahweh has a Son Yahshua, does the Jewish God also called Yahweh have a Son? I don't think so, so we have a Yahweh who has a Son and a Yahweh who does not....so which Yahweh is the correct one?

 

[Yahweh kid]

The scientific process is what leads to growth in knowledge..

"The scientific process is inherently fallible. While it strives for objectivity and seeks to minimize errors, it's a human endeavor and therefore susceptible to mistakes, biases, and limitations."
Why would anyone want to place their trust in the scientific process... I guess if you do not believe in a god you don't have many options to choose from to explain the creation we observe.

 

[wil]

You said that Christians added the Trinity.... it almost seem as if you are suggesting that Christians added to the Word. The word Trinity might not be mentioned in the Bible, but the triune God existed from the beginning. Yahweh has a Son Yahshua, does the Jewish God also called Yahweh have a Son? I don't think so, so we have a Yahweh who has a Son and a Yahweh who does not....so which Yahweh is the correct one?

Not all Christians are trinitarian.

Abrahamic religions all believe in the same G!d, they just see and interpret them differently.

They are all playing that parts of an elephant game... like all religions do...like you do...each thinking they see the whole picture and that everyone else is wrong...

This ain't knew to you is it?

 

[wil]

Not all Christians are trinitarian.

Abrahamic religions all believe in the same G!d, they just see and interpret them differently.

They are all playing that parts of an elephant game... like all religions do...like you do...each thinking they see the whole picture and that everyone else is wrong...

This ain't knew to you is it?

 

[wil]

Why would anyone want to place their trust in

a two thousand year old book or a friend who says I will be right back?

I really dislike having to be so pointed, but your choice to constantly pontificate, your inability to discuss and holier than thou attitude is tiring.

(Some may say I am projecting, and they may be right...but it is open for discussion)

 

[Longfellow]

I mean that if people think that they are not in need of Divine guidance, then they will
ignore it .. or perhaps even oppose it !
Like Pharaoh .. he opposed it .. he oppressed others, because he thought he knew better.

In my story, Hindu sources of guidance are grounded in wisdom from the source that the Bible calls “God,” as much as Christian and Muslim sources are, and Christians and Muslims get their ideas of their religious duty from their society and institutions as much as Hindus do.

 

[Yahweh kid]

Not all Christians are trinitarian.

Abrahamic religions all believe in the same G!d, they just see and interpret them differently.

They are all playing that parts of an elephant game... like all religions do...like you do...each thinking they see the whole picture and that everyone else is wrong...

This ain't knew to you is it?

What is the definition of a Christian? Are mormons Christians? Many call themselves Christian, but Jesus says in Matt. 7 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
Even some universalists calls themselves Christians...