Two origins of Christianity?

Longfellow

Well-Known Member
Messages
753
Reaction score
234
Points
43
Location
here and there around the world
I'm thinking that part of Christianity could have started with a teacher from Galilee, and another part of it could have started in a different way, somewhere else. Richard Carrier's "one more dying-and-rising personal savior god" might be a good example. Christianity's salvation beliefs could have started among Diaspora Jews in the way that Carrier proposes, before they had any news about the teacher from Galilee. They might even have called their savior god "Yeshua" for "savior" and "Christos" for the promised king. "Yeshua Christos."

Disclosure: That isn't actually how I think it happened. It's a flight-of-fancy experiment. I'm putting it out here to see if it can fly.
 
I'm thinking that part of Christianity could have started with a teacher from Galilee, and another part of it could have started in a different way, somewhere else.
One source of Christianity is hard enough, so I would have thought two sources would be a very difficult case to make?

Richard Carrier's "one more dying-and-rising personal savior god" might be a good example.
The trouble is, none of these myths fit the model that is present in Scripture.

A more credible scholar, it seems to me, is David Litwa, who argues from the viewpoint of what ancient Jews, Greeks and Romans expected from their gods, including their human gods – 'demigods' or 'heroes'.

Jesus’ resurrection can be seen as akin to the deification of heroes like Asklepios, Herakles, and Romulus ... this does not mean that the early community copied the idea from pagan mythology, but it does suggest at the very least that to have any kind of positive content for the people to whom the Gospel is addressed, then the resurrection of Jesus must have some kind of parallel point of reference, without which it would simply be unfathomable.

Justin Martyr points out that what is claimed by Christians is nothing out of the ordinary compared to what was said of the demigods in Greek religion (Justin Martyr, 1 Apol. 21.1-3).

+++

This is a crucial point. If the death and resurrection of Jesus was absolutely unique, a never-happened-before event, then it would be unfathomable, and just leave the listener shaking their heads, asking 'what happened' and 'what was all that about?'

Another is that the Ancient World knew and understood their myths as myths. To claim that the same thing happened to an actual person is quite a leap.

Christianity's salvation beliefs could have started among Diaspora Jews in the way that Carrier proposes, before they had any news about the teacher from Galilee. They might even have called their savior god "Yeshua" for "savior" and "Christos" for the promised king. "Yeshua Christos."
Well, Yeshua was a common name, and for that reason would not be a 'name of God' but rather the claim 'Yahweh saves'?

And Chrestos is the Greek for Messiah, which is again is a title, and was probably claimed by more than a few ...

Disclosure: That isn't actually how I think it happened. It's a flight-of-fancy experiment. I'm putting it out here to see if it can fly.
OK, understood ... just some comments.

Paul was the first we know of to preach Resurrection, but clearly it was a given because he refers to an existing tradition, he is the last in a line to have seen the risen saviour (Corinthians 15:1-8) – this is not a reference to some distant mythological event, as in the Gods and Heroes of the pagans, this is a claim to recent actuality, something that occurred within living memory.
 
One source of Christianity is hard enough, so I would have thought two sources would be a very difficult case to make?
It might be easier to make than either historicity or mythicism alone, but I'm not planning to try. I'll only try to clarify how I'm imagining it as a possibility.

Here's how I'm fantasizing it at this point: Some popular Christian beliefs about salvation started among Diaspora Jews, inspired by Roman and Greek mythology, which they read into Jewish scriptures. For example, a celestial being similar to an archangel, buying salvation for us by suffering, dying and being raised again. They called him "Kyrios Yeshua Chrestos" quite naturally, almost inevitably. When the Jerusalem apostles found them, they interpreted those beliefs as being inspired by visions of their own Kyrios Yeshua Chrestos. How could they think otherwise?. That was welcomed, and the two movements became one.
 
For me, I have yet to buy into the resurection.

Maybe for the same reason the author of our revolution TJ removed it (and other miracles) from his version of the gospels.

My preference for the Jefferson Bible in this regard is the main reason I dont claim to be a Christian (mostly to appease Christians) but do claim to be a follower of Christ. For it is the words attributed to him that I follow, fully realizing they may not be all his, they may be misstemembered and hyperbolic intentionally to support the religion by editors or translators or they may be just stories, but they are good stories, stories I can use to make my life and dealing with others easier, more useful, more.valuable.

So I catch grief from some for finding value in the bible and for others for not believing it. I catch grief for following my elder brother and wayshower and others for not doing it the way they would like. I catch grief for saying I am pretty sure that if the Jesus in the Bible actually existed did not do or say all that was attributed to him and that quite likely the stories comprise an amalgam of people.at.the time (not dissimilar ompletley with the OP's OP)

So I also have another longstanding possibility of a view that the crucifixion (if it occurred as sonewhat as described) was not complete, it was shorter than normal and may not have killed the man, thru his own personal drive he survived the horror....and then left town (back to the far east where he is purported to have wandered between 13 and 30 and got all his wild turn the other cheek sayings?)

My other perspective on the resurrection topic. Comes from my own. As for me, I believe my doctors and nurses and surgeons were miracle workers. From them they think I am a miracle survivor. Others attribute the value of prayer. My mother speaks of my sister at my bedside yelling at me while in a coma "It is upto you...YOU gotta fight...they have done all they can..if you wanna survive...you gotta do it" of course I recall none of it, have only heard the stories. But over a period of three weeks (not 3 days in a tomb) I was resurrected mor than once, brought back to life by thousands of dollars of tech and centuries of science (not laying on a stone slab in a cave) but statistically my triple A (ascending aortic aneurysm dissection) recovery has a less than 2% survival rate. They were still shocked I was alive and walked in for an annual checkup a year later and told me they had only got me patched up to get my affairs in order, nobody expected me to ever get strong enough to go back in and finish the required surgeries...so they froze my brain again and sawed open my sternum to complete. So this is a walking talking miracle answering your query still blowing away my docs that I am still alive, not bedridden, not in a wheel chair.

So now folks like to say that G!d saved me for something big....that miracles and divine hand was involved to keep this blasphemous heretic around, that I should be on my knees giving thanx to the almighty when I think it mostly the efforts of my doctors, nurses, family and friends that saved me..and my docs attribute my attitude, my desire to live, to over come, which I directly attribute my attitude to my understandings of the parables and stories and Christ's teachings in the Bible emphasizing belief, of changing perspective, of positivity, of seeing things from a different viewpoint.

I am not eloquent in prose, I am not learned in all things ...but I feel I have benefitted from my understandings of Christ teachings or Christ Consciousness, of putting the mind that is in Jesus in my mind, of following my elder brother and wayshower in my way.

So Longfellow, Thomas and all...my thought is, I'll do me. And if it benefits, you do you and let's continue this dance thru life.

Peace to all.
 
... it is the words attributed to him that I follow, fully realizing they may not be all his, they may be misstemembered and hyperbolic intentionally to support the religion by editors or translators or they may be just stories, but they are good stories, stories I can use to make my life and dealing with others easier, more useful, more.valuable.
I think that we'd all be better off if more people would use them that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil
So I catch grief from some for finding value in the bible and for others for not believing it. I catch grief for following my elder brother and wayshower and others for not doing it the way they would like. I catch grief for saying I am pretty sure that if the Jesus in the Bible actually existed did not do or say all that was attributed to him and that quite likely the stories comprise an amalgam of people.at.the time (not dissimilar ompletley with the OP's OP)
We are definitely apt to catch grief for not believing as others think we ought to.
Sometime I'm going to start a thread about something like that... just not sure how to angle the question or what I want to call it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wil
Some popular Christian beliefs about salvation started among Diaspora Jews, inspired by Roman and Greek mythology, which they read into Jewish scriptures. For example, a celestial being similar to an archangel, buying salvation for us by suffering, dying and being raised again.
An interesting hypothesis, one that is being explored by modern scholarship, without reverting to total and rather extreme position of the mythicists.

A particular problem you'd have to overcome is that the idea of buying salvation by suffering, dying and being raised again is, I think, absent from GrecoRoman mythology. In their view, heroes and demigods die and go to heaven; some die at the hands of others, such as Hercules, and possibly the wonder-worker Apollonius of Tyana, but none died for the the sake of others, for the salvation of many, or the overcoming of sin.

For the Jews, the influence of Hellenic myth might have had some influence on the idea that Enoch was understood to have been assumed into heaven, as a divinised and/or ‘angelised’ mortal, as was Elijah after him. But again, like their GrecoRoman counterparts, these divine elevations were regarded as the just rewards of their own righteousness, rather than any idea of sacrifice on behalf of many ...

When the Jerusalem apostles found them, they interpreted those beliefs as being inspired by visions of their own Kyrios Yeshua Chrestos. How could they think otherwise?
Having said all the above, there is scope to admit and accept that popular mythological tropes were grafted onto the person of Jesus, but not the central principle of a sacrificial death and resurrection – for Paul, the Resurrection underpins the totality of the gospel, without that single element, the rest becomes meaningless – St Paul said it most emphatically –

"But if Christ is proclaimed – that he has been raised from the dead – how is it some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? Now, if there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised; and if Christ has not been raised then our proclamation is vain, and your faith vain; and also we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if the dead are not raised; for, if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either; and if Christ has not been raised your faith is futile: you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:12-17).

For Paul, and for the early Christian kerygma, this is the one inarguable, fundamental point, Christ died, for the sake of all, and was raised from the dead. If you don't believe that, Paul argues, then the whole enterprise is pointless.

+++

The writings around Christianity – Paul, the Gospels, and so forth, were penned by Jews who were the product of a world by then thoroughly Hellenised. The question then is, to what degree? The Jews at Qumran and the Jews living in Alexandria had very different relationships with the wider Hellenic culture, but it's probably more the case that the Alexandrians were more conscious of their Hellenisation than the Essenes. Scholars of Early Christianity now see the Jesus Movement of the first century as fully within the cultic, social and institutional boundaries of what we would identify as 'Judaism,' but a Judaism that arose within a GrecoRoman mileau.

The authors of the New Testament were primarily Jews within the broad matrix of Early Jewish diversity and the cultural mix of Hellenism.

And there has also been a very great deal of illuminating scholarship in recent years on the consonance between early Christian literature, the Gospels in particular, and the literature of late antique pagan culture (David C Miller and Robyn Faith Walsh have made contributions in this field).

D.B Hart would argue that had Christianity died out; if we found, say, the Gospels in a cache in some cave somewhere, they would not strike scholars as noticeably unusual or out of place in the classical canon of their era. They would be taken as an example of the same kind of work as Philostratus’s Life of Apollonius – yet another wonderworker, another sage uttering impenetrable oracles, another mysterious itinerant holy man harbouring secrets he could divulge only to his inner circle, just another 'divine mortal' unfairly arraigned before human judges.

Does that render the Gospels as myth?

No. That idea passed with that giant of Christian theological speculation, Rudolf Bultmann:
A is a myth, B reads like A, therefore B is a myth ... a flawed thesis which proved remarkably popular, for a while, then evaporated.

+++

The problem to be addressed here is that the mystery of Christ is unintelligible if it is wholly dissimilar to everything else culturally.

If Christ has no parallel in world mythology, philosophy, and religion, then all one has done is make a Jesus utterly inaccessible to one's audience, indeed to any meaningful conceptualisation.

So the literary forms of the Gospels reflect the literary conventions and idioms of their time. How could they not? They incorporate motifs and tropes and episodes that were part of the common grammar of a kind of literature that aspired not to historical accuracy (as we now reckon such things), but rather to illustrate those deeper truths about its subject. It's not that the authors did reflect those conventions, it's simply a fact that they had to, had they not, then their testimonies would have been inaccessible.

What we cannot do, although we often try, is to fit the narratives into a convenient genre of our own sensibility – Gospels are not 'history', but that does not mean they are fiction, that's to commit an anachronism and an injustice.

It's not so much two Jesus', as one Jesus who is required in certain respects to 'tick the boxes' of Judeo-Greco-Roman spiritual and metaphysical speculation.
 
Mark's – the first Gospel and the template for Matthew and Luke – begins his Gospel with John the Baptist’s annunciation of one who is yet to come, and then enter stage left: Jesus appears without further ado. It ends in much the same way (if we assume the supposed ending) ... the women have discovered the empty tomb, are told he is gone, and hastening away in fear and astonishment. Jesus' exit from the scene is as stark and as sudden as his entrance.

Mark must have been aware of the stories of encounter with the risen Christ – Paul certainly was – testimonies of His resurrection appearances constitute the principal matter of the Easter kerygma in its most original form, most original as Paul was writing at least a decade before Mark.

Mark's, as were the other Gospels, were written for the education and edification of a Liturgical Church, that is a body of people who met together to celebrate the founding of a mystery cult within the context of Jewish expectation. We may assume that Mark expected his readers to be somewhat familiar about the events following Easter Sunday.

+++

The picture that has begun to emerge, then, in certain academic quarters is of the Gospel of Mark as a fairly typical late antique novel written not so much as an attempt to gather up and synthesise oral traditions and writings already in circulation within the larger Jesus movement, but as an entirely fantastic confection produced by and for a literate elite. Then, supposedly, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke added to this account not so much by synthesising it with other preexisting materials from the nascent religion, but by adding yet more of the typical motifs of Hellenistic tales about miraculous and charismatic sages or prophets or demigods: divine impregnation, marvelous tales of infancy and boyhood, wise or mystifying teachings, post-mortem appearances, and so forth.

Here, scholarship often becomes mere speculation, whose only real value is provocation.

Yes, the Gospels are late antique Hellenistic ‘biographical novels’; and yes, they employ any number of common mythic motifs to advance the plot and to make whatever points the authors intended. Just as it is an anachronism to mistake the Gospels for documentary biographies of the sort we would write today, so too it is utterly anachronistic to assume such an absolute distinction between 'fiction' and 'factual narrative' in the minds of the intended readership. They, too, may recognise familiar tropes, observed certain liberties taken by the evangelists in framing their narratives, but they would not necessarily assume the Gospels to be pure invention.

Mark, for example, places Christ’s ministry specifically in Galilee and Judaea, even though he is unfamiliar with the geography and makes certain obvious errors as a result – why not emply the more fantastic and casually imprecise geography that usually accompanies such crafted legends. (Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, for example, could be anywhere. Jesus could be equally tempted in the market place, but the common idea is the wilderness belongs to disorder and the daemonic.)

That is enough to suggest a real historical memory about a man in a place and time. The evangelist’s errors suggest an honest effort to repeat information about a region of which he was not a native.

The teachings ascribed to Christ in both Matthew and Luke suggest a preexisting logia tradition (Q being either actual or general). The Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain do not look like the sort of wisdom Hellenistic writers placed on the lips of sages and sorcerers. according to Hart, a widely-read Classicist, nothing quite matches the very specific and quite unusual combination of the pragmatic, the moral, and the mystical that one finds in the two later Synoptics.

It is quite likely, more than likely in fact, that the echoes of the prophets of Israel in Jesus’s teachings, from his invocations of divine judgement, his pronouncements upon the ministry of John the Baptist, to the ferocity of his hatred of injustice and the equally burning tenderness of his love of the poor and excluded, were absolutely grounded in real memories and records – oral or written – of the ‘Jesus of history’.

Hart again notes that Apollonius of Tyana was capable of a serene compassion, and of a mysterious implacability toward others; but there is nothing as radical and scandalous as the social latitude of Jesus, or of his genuinely political denunciations of the wealthy who exploit the poor under the cover of religion and respectability, or of his willingness to consort with lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors.

The concrete concerns and prophetic resonances in Christ’s teachings are of a specific and irreducibly Jewish kind, which would have struck the ears of a literate elite hungry for charming fables as either absurd or unintelligible.

And it begs the question – why would any writer, attempting to glamorise and immortalise a largely fictional construct several decades after the death of the figure on which it is based, would think it useful to make so much of the promise an imminent eschatological return when clearly nothing of the sort had come to pass?

In short, why construct a mythology and fundamentally subvert it?
 
Last edited:
@Thomas Thanks for discussing this with me. It’s challenging for me because I don’t actually think that Christianity had any other origin than a Jesus who walked the earth. One of my reasons for that is that there is nothing in writings against heresies about a Jesus who did not walk the earth. That makes it hard for me to do what I’m trying to do, which is to imagine a way that some part of Christianity might possibly have started without its followers knowing anything about the teacher from Galilee.

I’ll drop the salvation beliefs and make it some kind of beliefs about a divine being, reading ideas from Greek and Roman religion into Hebrew Scriptures. It might be some Jews in Alexandria for example, or some other place where they mostly could not travel to Jerusalem every year, and were highly Hellenized. The temple, the sacrifices, the atonement rituals were not part if their life and they needed something to replace them. That could possibly be a divine being and maybe they even had visions of one.
 
Last edited:
Mark's – the first Gospel and the template for Matthew and Luke – begins his Gospel with John the Baptist’s annunciation of one who is yet to come, and then enter stage left: Jesus appears without further ado. It ends in much the same way (if we assume the supposed ending) ... the women have discovered the empty tomb, are told he is gone, and hastening away in fear and astonishment. Jesus' exit from the scene is as stark and as sudden as his entrance.

Mark must have been aware of the stories of encounter with the risen Christ – Paul certainly was – testimonies of His resurrection appearances constitute the principal matter of the Easter kerygma in its most original form, most original as Paul was writing at least a decade before Mark.

Mark's, as were the other Gospels,m were written for the education and edification of a Liturgical Church, that is a body of people who met together to celebrate the founding of a mystery cult within the context of Jewish expectation. We may assume that Mark expected his readers to be somewhat familiar about the events following Easter Sunday.

+++

The picture that has begun to emerge, then, in certain academic quarters is of the Gospel of Mark as a fairly typical late antique novel written not so much as an attempt to gather up and synthesise oral traditions and writings already in circulation within the larger Jesus movement, but as an entirely fantastic confection produced by and for a literate elite. Then, supposedly, the Gospels of Matthew and Luke added to this account not so much by synthesising it with other preexisting materials from the nascent religion, but by adding yet more of the typical motifs of Hellenistic tales about miraculous and charismatic sages or prophets or demigods: divine impregnation, marvelous tales of infancy and boyhood, wise or mystifying teachings, post-mortem appearances, and so forth.

Here, scholarship often becomes mere speculation, whose only real value is provocation.
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch...6eb0-d62c-4609-83a1-1abd7fbc343c_640x384.heic

Yes, the Gospels are late antique Hellenistic ‘biographical novels’; and yes, they employ any number of common mythic motifs to advance the plot and to make whatever points the authors intended. Just as it is an anachronism to mistake the Gospels for documentary biographies of the sort we would write today, so too it is utterly anachronistic to assume such an absolute distinction between 'fiction' and 'factual narrative' in the minds of the intended readership. They, too, may recognise familiar tropes, observed certain liberties taken by the evangelists in framing their narratives, but they would not necessarily assume the Gospels to be pure invention.

Mark, for example, places Christ’s ministry specifically in Galilee and Judaea, even though he is unfamiliar with the geography and makes certain obvious errors as a result – why not emply the more fantastic and casually imprecise geography that usually accompanies such crafted legends. (Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, for example, could be anywhere. Jesus could be equally tempted in the market place, but the common idea is the wilderness belongs to disorder and the daemonic.)

That is enough to suggest a real historical memory about a man in a place and time. The evangelist’s errors suggest an honest effort to repeat information about a region of which he was not a native.

The teachings ascribed to Christ in both Matthew and Luke suggest a preexisting logia tradition (Q being either actual or general). The Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain do not look like the sort of wisdom Hellenistic writers placed on the lips of sages and sorcerers. according to Hart, a widely-read Classicist, nothing quite matches the very specific and quite unusual combination of the pragmatic, the moral, and the mystical that one finds in the two later Synoptics.

It is quite likely, more than likely in fact, that the echoes of the prophets of Israel in Jesus’s teachings, from his invocations of divine judgement, his pronouncements upon the ministry of John the Baptist, to the ferocity of his hatred of injustice and the equally burning tenderness of his love of the poor and excluded, were absolutely grounded in real memories and records – oral or written – of the ‘Jesus of history’.

Hart again notes that Apollonius of Tyana was capable of a serene compassion, and of a mysterious implacability toward others; but there is nothing as radical and scandalous as the social latitude of Jesus, or of his genuinely political denunciations of the wealthy who exploit the poor under the cover of religion and respectability, or of his willingness to consort with lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors.

The concrete concerns and prophetic resonances in Christ’s teachings are of a specific and irreducibly Jewish kind, which would have struck the ears of a literate elite hungry for charming fables as either absurd or unintelligible.

And it begs the question – why would any writer, attempting to glamorise and immortalise a largely fictional construct several decades after the death of the figure on which it is based, would think it useful to make so much of the promise an imminent eschatological return when clearly nothing of the sort had come to pass?

In short, why construct a mythology and fundamentally subvert it?
What I actually think is that Jesus was a person who walked the earth, with all the authority, power, knowledge and wisdom of God, and that the gospels mostly contain lessons that He actually taught. If any of the miracles did not happen physically, they started as parables told by Jesus and somehow ended up being told as happening physically. The synoptic gospels and Luke were written before the destruction of the temple, selected from stories that were circulating in the communities since the time of Jesus.
 
I'll be trying to explain a kind of Jesus mythicism that seems plausible to me, inspired by Richard Carrier's book "On the Historicity of Jesus," but different from his and probably from any other mythicism, and different from what I actually think. What I actually think is that there was a person from Galilee, with all the authority, power, wisdom and knowledge of God, who gave public talks and private lessons in and between Galilee and Judea. He may or may not have been born of a virgin, but that doesn't matter to me. The miracles may or may not have happened physically, but that doesn't matter to me. He was crucified. He may or may not have appeared after that in a form that seemed physical to some people, but that doesn't matter to me.

The mythicism that I'll be trying to explain is roughly that some beliefs evolved among some Diaspora Jews far from their homeland, about a figure like an archangel that one or more of them that called “Adon Yeshua Christos,” before they knew anything about a teacher from Galilee. Then when those people and the disciples learned about each other, they agreed that the one in the visions must have been the teacher from Galilee.
 
The only point I would contend with is the post-crucifixion appearances.

I think, without those, the community would have gone the same way as others did, and we'd know little or nothing about them now.

The community around John the Baptist was bigger and more diverse than that around Jesus. He seems the more successful preacher, in terms of popularity. It may well be that Jesus was a follower of John, who then went on to do his own thing. Tensions between the Jesus Movement and the John Movement are hinted in Scripture.

According to Josephus:
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army (by Aretas) came from God as a just punishment of what Herod had done against John, who was called the Baptist." (Antiquities, 18, 116)

The destruction of Herod's army came about because of internal dissent led some of his allies to desert to King Aretas. But Josephus goes on:

"For Herod had killed this good man, who had commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, righteousness towards one another and piety towards God. For only thus, in John's opinion, would the baptism he administered be acceptable to God, namely, if they used it to obtain not pardon for some sins but rather the cleansing of their bodies, inasmuch as it was taken for granted that their souls had already been purified by justice.

Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late." (ibid 18, 117-118)

Some of the Baptist's Movement gravitated to Jesus, others remained loyal to the memory of their dead teacher. The brief description in the Gospels suggests a wild man living in the wilderness, in fact that's not quite the case. John was not always baptising at the Jordan, but travelled, preaching. According to Luke he was a cousin of Jesus and his father was a high priest, which meant he should have followed his father into the Temple, but he didn't, he rebelled, and preached a gospel of baptism which countered the orthodox view that remission of sin was achieved only by offering sacrifice at the temple – As for many the Temple was a long way away, and that the whole process was expensive – the idea of baptism for the remission of sin, which seems to have been from John, was revolutionary. Before him, ritual washing was a physical act but not itself capable of the remission of sin.

The Mandaean Religion believes John the Baptist is the last and most important prophet. Their origins are uncertain, but some believe they were a group who migrated from Judea, possibly after the death of John, and ended up in Iraq/Iran. Their Madaean tongue is a dialect of Eastern Aramaic.

But my point here is, scholars generally agree that the Baptist had a wider appeal than Jesus, and a bigger following ... but after the execution of their leader, the movement died out, as happened to many in the region.
 
Nevertheless ... I wait with interest to hear what you've got!
 
The only point I would contend with is the post-crucifixion appearances.

I think, without those, the community would have gone the same way as others did, and we'd know little or nothing about them now.

The community around John the Baptist was bigger and more diverse than that around Jesus. He seems the more successful preacher, in terms of popularity. It may well be that Jesus was a follower of John, who then went on to do his own thing. Tensions between the Jesus Movement and the John Movement are hinted in Scripture.

According to Josephus:
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army (by Aretas) came from God as a just punishment of what Herod had done against John, who was called the Baptist." (Antiquities, 18, 116)

The destruction of Herod's army came about because of internal dissent led some of his allies to desert to King Aretas. But Josephus goes on:

"For Herod had killed this good man, who had commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, righteousness towards one another and piety towards God. For only thus, in John's opinion, would the baptism he administered be acceptable to God, namely, if they used it to obtain not pardon for some sins but rather the cleansing of their bodies, inasmuch as it was taken for granted that their souls had already been purified by justice.

Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late." (ibid 18, 117-118)

Some of the Baptist's Movement gravitated to Jesus, others remained loyal to the memory of their dead teacher. The brief description in the Gospels suggests a wild man living in the wilderness, in fact that's not quite the case. John was not always baptising at the Jordan, but travelled, preaching. According to Luke he was a cousin of Jesus and his father was a high priest, which meant he should have followed his father into the Temple, but he didn't, he rebelled, and preached a gospel of baptism which countered the orthodox view that remission of sin was achieved only by offering sacrifice at the temple – As for many the Temple was a long way away, and that the whole process was expensive – the idea of baptism for the remission of sin, which seems to have been from John, was revolutionary. Before him, ritual washing was a physical act but not itself capable of the remission of sin.

The Mandaean Religion believes John the Baptist is the last and most important prophet. Their origins are uncertain, but some believe they were a group who migrated from Judea, possibly after the death of John, and ended up in Iraq/Iran. Their Madaean tongue is a dialect of Eastern Aramaic.

But my point here is, scholars generally agree that the Baptist had a wider appeal than Jesus, and a bigger following ... but after the execution of their leader, the movement died out, as happened to many in the region.
Random thoughts.:

I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and that God's purpose in the world is a real thing. The teachings of His Son grew and spread because that was God's purpose, and it happened through the power of His Spirit. Also, John's teachings were not a way of life. They were a preparation for Jesus to teach a new way of life, which incidentally included living without the temple. A community grew around Jesus in Capernaum, practicing the new way of life. That was the seed for its spread into society in all directions. I don't know of any reason for calling John's followers a "community." Do you?

What you posted above about the teachings of John looks to me like what God said again and again in the Old Testament, that if only Israel would repent and turn back to Him, all would be forgiven. Now I'm seeing much more kinship between John and the other prophets than I ever saw before, with the same message. As Josephus tells it, John is explicitly saying that baptism is *not* a way to be cleansed from sin, it is only acceptable *after* a person has turned back to God and been purified by Him. Read it again. Turn back, not meaning to Temple sacrifice which they were still doing, but to justice and righteousness, including caring for the widow, the fatherless and the stranger.

On another topic, it looks to me like the power struggles in Christianity were already beginning before Paul, and before the death of Jesus, with the apostles debating with each other about who would be greatest in the kingdom.
 
Last edited:
Nevertheless ... I wait with interest to hear what you've got!
Actually, maybe all that I really want to say is that *if* some diaspora Jews believed in a figure something like an archangel that one or more of them saw in visions, thinking that he was the promised king but also Hellenized, even without knowing anything about the teacher from Galilee, it would be quite natural to call him Lord Savior Anointed. Then when those Jews and the followers of the teacher from Galilee found each other, it would be natural for them to think that the figure in the visions was the teacher from Galilee.
 
One argument against the existence of Jesus has been to say that a mythical origin for Christianity is more likely, for example that some diaspora Jews had visions of a divine figure mostly modeled after some Greek and Roman gods, which they read into Jewish scriptures. That isn't actually an argument against the existence of a teacher from Galilee whose stories are part of the origin of Christianity. Even if Christianity has its origin partly in belief in a purely celestial being, it could also have its origin partly in stories about a real person.

One fallacy in a popular mythicism theory is that Jesus is supposed to be modeled after gods who never walked the earth, but at the time when Christianity started, the stories of those gods had them living and dying on earth, not in some celestial realm.
 
Random responses:

Also, John's teachings were not a way of life.
I think they were – look at Luke 3:
"And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins; (v3).
While washing was part of Jewish practice, it was not for the remission of sin; that was attained by offering sacrifice at the Temple. So John's new teaching of baptism for the remission of sin challenged the orthodox Jewish idea.

"And the people asked him, saying: What then shall we do? And he answering, said to them: He that hath two coats, let him give to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do in like manner. And the publicans also came to be baptised, and said to him: Master, what shall we do? But he said to them: Do nothing more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers also asked him, saying: And what shall we do? And he said to them: Do violence to no man; neither calumniate any man; and be content with your pay. And as the people were of opinion, and all were thinking in their hearts of John, that perhaps he might be the Christ" (v10-15)

I don't know of any reason for calling John's followers a "community." Do you?
Well, John had his followers as Jesus has his, and John's was bigger.

A couple of things:
John might well have been based at Jordan, baptising in the river, but he travelled. He is described as a wild man, a hermit, living off insects and honey, but these most likely had specific meaning:
His 'coat of hair and leather belt' is a direct reference to Elijah, in who's tradition he followed, and the description was given for the reader to make that connection. Living off locusts and honey might simply mean he did not feast or indulge himself, but was a man of severe ascesis, of abstemious habit.

Look at Luke 7:
"And John's disciples told him (John) of all these things. And John called to him two of his disciples, and sent them to Jesus, saying: Art thou he that art to come; or look we for another?" (18-19)
So John's community is around at the same times as Jesus is teaching to his community.

(There's also a bit of a contradiction here, as Luke has the infant John, in the womb, leap at the recognition of the child in Mary's womb, but here he's asking Jesus if he's actually the one.)

What you posted above about the teachings of John looks to me like what God said again and again in the Old Testament, that if only Israel would repent and turn back to Him, all would be forgiven. Now I'm seeing much more kinship between John and the other prophets than I ever saw before, with the same message.
Well Jesus himself says "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John: And if you will receive it, he is Elijah that is to come" (Matthew 11:13-14) ... and then later, at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17), Moses and Elijah stand alongside Jesus, and it was understood Moses signified the Law, and Elijah the Prophets, all summed up in Christ.

As Josephus tells it, John is explicitly saying that baptism is *not* a way to be cleansed from sin, it is only acceptable *after* a person has turned back to God and been purified by Him. Read it again. Turn back, not meaning to Temple sacrifice which they were still doing, but to justice and righteousness, including caring for the widow, the fatherless and the stranger.
I agree, with the proviso that the cultic practice of immersion was a signifier of that remission of sin. John's father was a High Priest, and John would have followed in that tradition. That he did not is evident, but that doesn't mean he's directly opposed to the Temple teaching, but more that 'it's what comes out of the mouth' as Jesus was to teach. John might have been railing against the fact that to offer sacrifice at the Temple was a great hardship on the people, and it lined the pockets of the temple authorities.

On another topic, it looks to me like the power struggles in Christianity were already beginning before Paul, and before the death of Jesus, with the apostles debating with each other about who would be greatest in the kingdom.
Quite. And that would have gone on between the two groups.

If the dating is correct regarding the war between Herod and Aretas, then John was executed about 35CE, whereas Jesus was executed years earlier...
 
Last edited:
Back
Top