Jesus Mythical and Real?

[Longfellow]

By “mythical, I don’t mean not real. By “real,” I don’t mean historical.



I’ve been thinking about a possibility that doesn’t qualify as either mythicism or historicism, but it seems more likely to me than either one alone.



I’m imagining that the earliest Jewish disciples already had all the cosmic categories including pre‑existent heavenly agents, Wisdom motifs, Logos‑like intermediaries, and exalted redeemer figures, because these were part of Hellenized Jewish cosmology before Jesus began teaching.



So the “mythic” part (the cosmic categories) is older than the teachings of Jesus and already shaped by Greek philosophy. Even so, the idea of identifying all that with Jesus came from Jesus himself, not explicitly but because he implicitly applied the same scriptures to himself that were used in Jewish cosmology. Then Paul learned that from the disciples that he interrogated before his conversion.



If that’s true, then the cosmic Christ wasn’t invented by Paul, and he wasn’t invented by later Christians. He was Hellenized Jewish cosmology applied to a real historical teacher by Jewish disciples seeing him apply the same scriptures to himself that they used in their cosmology.

 

[Thomas]

I’m imagining that the earliest Jewish disciples already had all the cosmic categories including pre‑existent heavenly agents, Wisdom motifs, Logos‑like intermediaries, and exalted redeemer figures, because these were part of Hellenized Jewish cosmology before Jesus began teaching.

The Jews certainly did, with מָשִׁיחַ mashiach ('messiah') and also גָּאַל gā'al ('redeemer'), but the Greco-Roman world I'm not so sure. Certainly there were demigods and heroes who saved themselves or were saved, or 'saved' someone close, but not on the scale of the Hebrew idea, I think?

So the “mythic” part (the cosmic categories) is older than the teachings of Jesus and already shaped by Greek philosophy.

Again, you'd have to clarify what you regard as 'mythical'.

For my part, I’ve had experiences that fall outside the realm of the 'normal'. Soe I can explain, some I cannot.

I do happen to think that 'materialistic naturalism' – that mind, consciopusness, etc., is simply the fruit, or even a by-product, of what are essentially chemical and mechanical processes is fairly lame as an explanation of the world. It fails on numerous levels.

Believing in God, for the want of a term; in the material world as (at heart) a theophany, in Creation as embodiment, I accept there is a realm of experience that lies outside the remit of the natural scioences to explain, and that insisting theat can't be so because the natural sciences can't explain them is a rather silly argument.

So I do not find the idea of 'miracles' outrageous, and see the mythical as addressing something in a manner more suited to its nature than any other stumbling attempt at explanation.

Even so, the idea of identifying all that with Jesus came from Jesus himself, not explicitly but because he implicitly applied the same scriptures to himself that were used in Jewish cosmology. Then Paul learned that from the disciples that he interrogated before his conversion.

Agreed.

If that’s true, then the cosmic Christ wasn’t invented by Paul, and he wasn’t invented by later Christians. He was Hellenized Jewish cosmology applied to a real historical teacher by Jewish disciples seeing him apply the same scriptures to himself that they used in their cosmology.

Yep.

The question then being, if this started with Jesus, as it clearly did, then why did people believe Him?

 

[Longfellow]

The question then being, if this started with Jesus, as it clearly did, then why did people believe Him?

Part of the explanation might be the resurrection, but I think that would only convince the ones that He actually visited. Possibly what convinced people most of all was seeing the new kind of community life that He started in Capernaum, and the power of the Holy Spirit in that. Another part of it might have been seeing the parallels between His story and the cosmology they grew up with.

It’s an open question for me how much the miracles and supernatural powers were literal. I don’t consider any of it impossible.

When I say Hellenized Jewish cosmology, I don’t mean that the Jews added any figures from the Greek/Roman gods, just that their ways of thinking about their own figures were influenced by them.

 

[Thomas]

Part of the explanation might be the resurrection, but I think that would only convince the ones that He actually visited.

Well then surely the faith would have fizzled out with the passing of time?

Possibly what convinced people most of all was seeing the new kind of community life that He started in Capernaum, and the power of the Holy Spirit in that.

But do we actually know anything about the community in Capernaum?

And Jesus was quite scathing about Capernaum for its lack of faith (Luke 10:13-15)? In John 6 especially, by the end of the chapter, many who had been followers turned away.

As for the power of the Holy Spirit – that starts in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and Jerusalem was where the Jesus movement was centred.

 

[Longfellow]

But do we actually know anything about the community in Capernaum?

That depends on what you mean by “know.” i see a lot between the lines in what happened in and around Peter’s house. Anyway, we don’t actually know anything, by any definition. Everything I say is my inference to the best explanation.

And Jesus was quite scathing about Capernaum for its lack of faith (Luke 10:13-15)? In John 6 especially, by the end of the chapter, many who had been followers turned away.

But not all, and that actually strengthens my point. The contrast between the community of disciples and the surrounding society would be part of what attracted people into it.

 

[Longfellow]

As for the power of the Holy Spirit – that starts in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and Jerusalem was where the Jesus movement was centred.

One possible explanation that I see for the growth and spread of the discipleship is the power and fruits of the Holy Spirit in its community life, and that started in and around Peter’s house in Capernaum. It might also have been facilitated by the scriptures that were associated with Jewish cosmology being the same ones that Jesus applied to himself.

Until now I was favoring early dates for the Synoptics and Acts. Now later dates are looking more plausible to me, with the source writings being earlier, and contemporaneous with Jesus and/or the apostles. The Synoptics and Acts would have been written under the patronage of the emerging bureaucracy, and underplayed the growth and spread of the Spirit-filled community life.

 

[Thomas]

One possible explanation that I see for the growth and spread of the discipleship is the power and fruits of the Holy Spirit in its community life, and that started in and around Peter’s house in Capernaum.

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but you offer very little evidence to agree with, I think that's the problem.

With regard to the Holy Spirit, that seems indisputably tied to the Pentecost event in Jerusalem. We can pre-empt that with the 'Pentecost of the Gentiles' in the house of Cornelius the Centurion in Caesarea (Acts 10 et seq) – in fact, I think the evidence is stronger for Caesarea as a 'starting place' than it is for Capernaum – the latter is not mentioned once in Acts.

It might also have been facilitated by the scriptures that were associated with Jewish cosmology being the same ones that Jesus applied to himself.

One is inclined to ask what other scriptures and cosmology would Jesus have applied to Himself?

Logically, the Jewish sort was the only kind He knew.

 

[Thomas]

Until now I was favoring early dates for the Synoptics and Acts. Now later dates are looking more plausible to me, with the source writings being earlier, and contemporaneous with Jesus and/or the apostles.

That's a hard one, obviously, as we lack so much evidence.

The Synoptics and Acts would have been written under the patronage of the emerging bureaucracy, and underplayed the growth and spread of the Spirit-filled community life.

That's even harder, as there was no 'emerging bureaucracy' at the time.

There's a lot of supposition going on here ...

 

[Longfellow]

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but you offer very little evidence to agree with, I think that's the problem.

I'm not looking for agreement. I'm looking for disagreement, reasons for thinking that what I'm picturing didn't happen.

With regard to the Holy Spirit, that seems indisputably tied to the Pentecost event in Jerusalem. We can pre-empt that with the 'Pentecost of the Gentiles' in the house of Cornelius the Centurion in Caesarea (Acts 10 et seq) – in fact, I think the evidence is stronger for Caesarea as a 'starting place' than it is for Capernaum – the latter is not mentioned once in Acts.

I want to see if I'm understanding what you're thinking about the resurrection, the growth and spread of Christianity, and the Holy
Spirit. Are you thinking of the survival, growth and spread of Christianity as proof of the resurrection, because the resurrection is the only possible explanation for it? Is the reason we need to know that He was resurrected because believing that is a requirement for salvation?

I'm thinking of the Holy Spirit as working in the world everywhere all the time, as long as the world has existed. Are you thinking of the Holy Spirit as only coming into the world at a few particular times and places, after the resurrection of Jesus?

One is inclined to ask what other scriptures and cosmology would Jesus have applied to Himself?

Logically, the Jewish sort was the only kind He knew.

Sorry, I should have said "passages" rather than "scriptures." I'll give some examples.

Here are some features of Paul's high Christology, with references:

• Feature | Representative Epistle References | Notes
• Pre-existence of Christ | Philippians 2:6–7; Colossians 1:15–17; 1 Corinthians 8:6 | Paul explicitly places Christ in the divine sphere before creation.
• Divine Titles / Identification with God | Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8 | Titles normally reserved for God are applied directly to Christ.
• Incarnation / Taking on Flesh | Galatians 4:4; Romans 8:3; Hebrews 2:14 | Christ’s humanity is emphasized as part of divine mission.
• Cosmic Role / Sustainer of Creation | Colossians 1:17; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6 | Christ is portrayed as cosmic sustainer, not just redeemer.
• Exalted Status / Enthronement | Philippians 2:9–11; Ephesians 1:20–22; Hebrews 1:3–4 | Enthronement language mirrors divine kingship.
• Salvific Mission Grounded in Divinity | Romans 5:18–19; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Hebrews 9:26–28 | Salvation is rooted in Christ’s divine identity and action.
• Full Divine Consciousness / Wisdom | 1 Corinthians 2:16; Colossians 2:3; Hebrews 4:15 | Christ embodies divine wisdom and awareness.
• Worship of Christ | Philippians 2:10–11; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:12–13 | Worship directed to Christ signals divine status

All of those features were already part of diaspora cosmology when Paul was born, part of the air he breathed, before he ever heard of Jesus or His disciples

• Feature | OT References | Pre-NT Jewish Writings
• Pre-existence | Proverbs 8:22–31 (Wisdom before creation) | Sirach 24:3–9; Wisdom of Solomon 7–9; Baruch 3:37; Philo’s Logos
• Divine Titles / Identification with God | Daniel 7:13–14 (Son of Man given dominion) | 1 Enoch 62–69 (Son of Man exalted); Qumran 11QMelchizedek (Melchizedek called “El”); exalted Moses traditions
• Incarnation / Dwelling Among Humans | Isaiah 63:9 (Angel of God’s presence) | Sirach 24:8 (“Wisdom pitched her tent”); Baruch 3:37 (“Wisdom appeared on earth”); Philo’s Logos dwelling among humans
• Cosmic Role / Sustainer of Creation | Genesis 1 (creation by God’s word); Psalm 33:6 | Wisdom of Solomon 7:22–27 (Wisdom ordering all things); Philo’s Logos as instrument of creation
• Exalted Status / Enthronement | Psalm 110:1 (Lord at God’s right hand); Daniel 7:13–14 | 1 Enoch 69:27–29 (Son of Man enthroned); Qumran exaltation texts; Moses/Enoch exaltation traditions
• Salvific Mission | Isaiah 53 (Suffering Servant); Isaiah 11 (Messianic judge) | Wisdom of Solomon 2–5 (Righteous One suffering/exalted); apocalyptic mediator figures reconciling heaven and earth
• Divine Consciousness / Wisdom | Proverbs 8:12–16 (Wisdom as counselor); Job 28 (Wisdom hidden with God) | Wisdom of Solomon 7 (Wisdom all-knowing, radiant); Philo’s Logos as divine mind; angelic vice-regents
• Worship of Heavenly Figure | Daniel 7:14 (all peoples serve the Son of Man); Psalm 97:7 (angels worship God) | 1 Enoch 48:5 (nations worship the Elect One); Wisdom hymns; Qumran angelic liturgies

Each pre-NT diaspora feature was associated with one or more OT passages that Jesus applied implicitly to himself.

• Feature | OT Anchor | Jesus’ Implicit Self-Application
• Pre-existence | Proverbs 8 (Wisdom before creation); Genesis 1 (Word as creative agent) | “Before Abraham was, I Am” (John tradition); in Synoptics, his authority over creation and nature echoes Wisdom/Word motifs.
• Divine Titles / Identification with God | Daniel 7:13–14 (Son of Man enthroned); Psalm 110:1 (Lord at God’s right hand) | Jesus’ repeated use of “Son of Man” with Danielic overtones; trial scene in Mark 14:62 citing Daniel 7 + Psalm 110.
• Incarnation / Dwelling Among Humans | Isaiah 63:9 (Angel of God’s presence); Exodus 3 (God’s messenger) | Jesus’ “I am with you” sayings; his role as God’s embodied presence among his disciples.
• Cosmic Role / Sustainer of Creation | Psalm 33:6 (creation by God’s word); Genesis 1 | Jesus calming the storm, commanding nature, multiplying food — actions echoing divine creative authority.
• Exalted Status / Enthronement | Psalm 110:1; Daniel 7:13–14 | Jesus’ trial confession (“you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power”); Stephen’s vision in Acts 7 echoes this.
• Salvific Mission | Isaiah 53 (Suffering Servant); Isaiah 11 (Messianic judge) | Jesus’ passion predictions; “Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark 10:45) echoing Isaiah 53.
• Divine Consciousness / Wisdom | Proverbs 8; Job 28 | Jesus’ wisdom sayings (“greater than Solomon here”); his teaching authority and parables echo Wisdom traditions.
• Worship of Heavenly Figure | Daniel 7:14 (all peoples serve the Son of Man); Psalm 97:7 (angels worship God) | Jesus accepts worship in the Gospels (healings, resurrection appearances); “in my name” sayings echo divine Name traditions.

I’m thinking that maybe the diaspora disciples, hearing that Jesus applied those passages to himself, applied to him all the diaspora features that they associated with those. Then when Paul was interrogating Christians before executing them, he would have heard them applying to Jesus all the features of diaspora cosmology that he grew up with. That would have nagged at him, until he was ready for Jesus to reveal to him on the road to Damascus that He, Jesus, truly was all of that.

Later, after hearing that Peter had baptized some gentiles, he started doing the same, which meant that he had to re-imagine all of that cosmology for gentiles who didn’t have any of the Jewish context. That’s why the Christology in his letters have that gentile flavor sometimes.

There's a lot of supposition going on here ...

It's pure speculation, what seems to me like the best explanation of what we see in the NT and earliest writings, based on everything that I've read and seen discussed. In Capernaum where he lived, among the many other disciples besides the twelve, and in the crowds that came to hear him, there would have been people taking notes and writing letters and teaching aids, just like in any other teaching network. Those would have survived long enough to be the Q, L, M and other sources that scholars are imagining.

 

[Longfellow]

That's even harder, as there was no 'emerging bureaucracy' at the time.

By "bureaucracy" I mean the alliance of bishops claiming authority over all the churches., and branding everyone who didn't submit as heretics.