Genuine Question To Theists (all faiths)

[Abdullah]

Salaam/Hello--

I am a Muslim (but not an islamic scholar) so I will try to answer the best I can. The Holy Qur'an does not give specific timeframes, but it does give description about the creation of the Earth and universes (seven heavens). It gives the impression that the Earth is fairly very old because God (Allah, in Arabic language) states in the Holy Qur'an that the universe and anything inside it, including the Earth, was created within several periods of time (not literal human days).
Then, the Holy Qur'an teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets/messangers of God (I think I got the number correct, but I know it is in the thousands), starting with Adam pbuh ending with Muhammad pbuh. According to the Holy Qur'an, every nation/tribe of a people had a messanger to reveal the Truth to his people so that humanity really has no excuse on the Judgement Day saying that they did not know/they have not been warned or told of the Truth. 125,000 prophets is a large number. Especially if you consider that the Holy Bible tells of some prophets pbut living for hundreds of years. Now, just imagine...

Salamualikum wr wb sister

Sis, I'm no Scholar iether, but AlHamdulillah I did hear about the view on how many prophets were sent...

Not sure how acurate this is though, but basically what I heard is this:

From the Islamic sources it can be opined that iether 124.000 Prophets or 224.000 Prophets were sent alltogether, and just to be on the safe side, we say that 124.000 Prophets were sent, for if someone does some calculations and research one day and comes to the conclusion that 224.000 Prophets have not yet been sent, then he'd be awaiting others to be sent, when Allah tells us that Muhamamd [saw] is the last and final one of them, so just so as that we shut the gates for anyone to go astray in the aforementioned way, we adopt the opinion of the former rather than the latter one

Salam

 

[enlightenment]

Salaam/Hello--

I am a Muslim (but not an islamic scholar) so I will try to answer the best I can. The Holy Qur'an does not give specific timeframes, but it does give description about the creation of the Earth and universes (seven heavens). It gives the impression that the Earth is fairly very old because God (Allah, in Arabic language) states in the Holy Qur'an that the universe and anything inside it, including the Earth, was created within several periods of time (not literal human days).
Then, the Holy Qur'an teaches that there had been 125,000 prophets/messangers of God (I think I got the number correct, but I know it is in the thousands), starting with Adam pbuh ending with Muhammad pbuh. According to the Holy Qur'an, every nation/tribe of a people had a messanger to reveal the Truth to his people so that humanity really has no excuse on the Judgement Day saying that they did not know/they have not been warned or told of the Truth. 125,000 prophets is a large number. Especially if you consider that the Holy Bible tells of some prophets pbut living for hundreds of years. Now, just imagine...

It is.

And I had heard that many prophets were mentioned in the Koran.

But why does Mohammed get elevated status over the others?

What did he do that was especially seductive, that the other prophets didn't do?

Thanks

 

[enlightenment]

If the prophets were all messengers of the same 'creator', has it ever crossed your mind that they are related, that somehow, they share the same bloodline?

Just a thought...

 

[iBrian]

Some groups try and play on that - there's an ancient European and Asia tradition that you are nobody unless you have a particularly revered bloodline - the more important you are, the more important that bloodline must be.

The ancient Greeks chose Greek heroes and gods to be related to (cf The Iliad) while the Romans take their pick - when Julius Caesar increased his political standing, it was cynically noted that he had to invent descent from the goddess Venus, as he was not from a particularly distinguished family.

You can see similar at work in Christianity - where despite Yeshua of Nazereth being proclaimed by followers as God upon Earth, they still had to give him an esteemed bloodline! Similar with Islam, in that Mohammed had to be given a descent connected to Abraham.

The bottom line is that there is no need for bloodlines to play a part in a rational manner - and yet because we are social creatures, following social orders, and that traditionally social order has been determined by family standing, then therefore who you are related to is seen as an affirmation of social position - and anyone seen to be speaking for the Divine must therefore claim divine descent!!

 

[enlightenment]

Hmm...

I was just playing with the idea of a creator that would send many prophets, over various times.

In other words, of a fashion, Jesus, Moses, Buddah, Mohammed, they would all be 'brothers', which means that any in fighting between true followers of those faiths should be real no go.

Hey, have you pondered the idea of a creator sending yet another prophet, to whatever part of the world?

Here is the problem....

People are hard to impress these days.


If he simply claimed to be a son of god, then people would dismiss him as a nut.

If he carried out a few 'miracles', it would be argued that there was some sort of trickery going on

I don't think even the theists themselves would accept another of god's prophets communicating with them, even if he tried to.

I think they would reject him.

 

[Nick_A]

Hmm...

I was just playing with the idea of a creator that would send many prophets, over various times.

In other words, of a fashion, Jesus, Moses, Buddah, Mohammed, they would all be 'brothers', which means that any in fighting between true followers of those faiths should be real no go.

Hey, have you pondered the idea of a creator sending yet another prophet, to whatever part of the world?

Here is the problem....

People are hard to impress these days.


If he simply claimed to be a son of god, then people would dismiss him as a nut.

If he carried out a few 'miracles', it would be argued that there was some sort of trickery going on

I don't think even the theists themselves would accept another of god's prophets communicating with them, even if he tried to.

I think they would reject him.

This is why the time is right for more skilled false prophets. The sheep are ready to be sheared. We are open to be dazzled with BS and glitz. This is their specialty and as a whole we've lost the inner discrimination necessary to recognize it.

 

[enlightenment]

This is why the time is right for more skilled false prophets..

More skilled in what way?

 

[Nick_A]

More skilled in what way?

If you want to understand false prophets and the anti-Christ, you must first understand the mission of the Christ. The Christ taught re-birth. It is the essential idea of the gospels. Re-birth begins with metanoia or awakening to the recognition that objective meaning for Man is not found on the earth.

False prophets have charisma and a good gift of gab that impresses the vulnerable. They will be loved for this good impression. However, it is empty and inspires just this devotion that keeps people oblivious even though they appear on Oprah and everyone will go "ooohh."

Where the Christ teaches re-birth into Man's potential at the expense of our imagintion, the anti-Christ will exhort the power of imagination taking place of the need for objective meaning. He will appear as Mr. Wonderful which is what appeals to out egotism.

It takes belief in oneself, charisma, and a gift of gab to pull this off. Since we've been practicing refining this gift of gab for centuries now, it is not surprising that one could get a BS degree in BS if not a Masters.

 

[enlightenment]

This description could be used to describe all 'prophets', well known, less well known.

Perhaps they are not all charlatans though?

Maybe to some of them they have convinced themselves that they have this special status.

It might be a delusion, but a delusion can be v real to the person experiencing it.

 

[Saltmeister]

People are hard to impress these days.

If he simply claimed to be a son of god, then people would dismiss him as a nut.

If he carried out a few 'miracles', it would be argued that there was some sort of trickery going on

I don't think even the theists themselves would accept another of god's prophets communicating with them, even if he tried to.

That's because today's miracle workers are all false prophets who don't perform real miracles.

We haven't met miracle workers because at the moment there are none. Some time in the future when the world is facing tough times, miracle workers and wonder workers will be in great demand. Their works will be far more spectacular than the insignificant tricks that today's alleged miracle workers perform. Their miracles will be fool-proof, defying the natural laws of the universe. Even the most sceptical of scientists will be stunned.

This devotion that keeps people oblivious even though they appear on Oprah and everyone will go "ooohh."

Watch it there, mate. I watch the Oprah Winfrey Show!

He will appear as Mr. Wonderful which is what appeals to out egotism.

Watch it there again, mate. I am Mr. Wonderful. Heaven forbid anyone think he is more wonderful than me.

This description could be used to describe all 'prophets', well known, less well known.

Perhaps they are not all charlatans though?

Maybe to some of them they have convinced themselves that they have this special status.

It might be a delusion, but a delusion can be v real to the person experiencing it.

The true prophet is the one who doesn't try to be a prophet because he is already a prophet. For a true prophet it's an effortless pursuit. He already knows what to say. He speaks his mind and talks straight from his heart. If there is something to be said he is not afraid to say it. He has this power, this power to turn back the tide, to calm winds, to reason and sympathise with people, to capture the hearts and minds of people, to command the minds of people to change the world.

. . . like Barack Obama.

But what is a prophet anyway? That's like asking what is a god? What is a hero? What is a politician?

I say there is no prophet, no god, no hero, no politician except what we think of them, and except what they think of themselves.

Actually, if you think about it, prophet, god, hero or politician are really all the same thing in a way. A prophet is a person with the power to change the way people think and you could think the same of a god, hero or politician. You worship a prophet as someone great.

A prophet is a politician.
A hero is a god.
A politician is a god.
A god is a hero.
A god is a politician.

Prophets, gods, heroes and politicians are terrestrial potentates. They are earthly and divine beings with great power.

It's like what it says in this passage:

"I said, 'you are "gods"
You are all sons of the Most High.'
But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler."
Psalms 82:6-7

 

[Abdullah]

If the prophets were all messengers of the same 'creator', has it ever crossed your mind that they are related, that somehow, they share the same bloodline?

Just a thought...

many Prophets do indeed have the same bloodline, such as the Israelite Prophets, and even the Prophet Muhamamd [saw] is related to them in the sense that he is decended from Abraham [as] as were the Israelite Prophets.

All Prophets could be decendents of the Prophet Noah [as] too for during his time, all pepole were wiped out, except a few I think, and most surely, all Prophets and mankind even are decended from the first Prophet and man, Adam.

It is only natural for Allah to give birth to Prophets in noble bloodlines; The Prophet Abraham prayed for a [special] Prophet through his progeny and God granted that prayer by sending the Prophet Muhamamd [saw] amongst his progeny; thus it amy even be due to the prayers and good acts of the Prophets that Allah blesses their progeny, hence more Prophets are chosen from them.

whatever Prophets share the same bloodlines is for the above mentioned reasons... and not for reasons that conspiracy theorists would like to play on

 

[Resigned]

This description could be used to describe all 'prophets', well known, less well known.

Perhaps they are not all charlatans though?

Maybe to some of them they have convinced themselves that they have this special status.

It might be a delusion, but a delusion can be v real to the person experiencing it.

Of course. All it takes is for someone to get enough people to buy into his proclamations and YES, the latest and greatest designer prophet.

"Critical analysis tells me that Zeus is god." What if I assert it's been revealed to me that David Koresh is the Spiritual "Good" Twin of Charles Manson and the hope of humanity. Or, Jim Jones was in fact a prophet. He certainly had a slacked-jawed mass of followers who would prop up his prophet’ hoodness.

None of this is any more or less outlandish than asserting a man is a god who rose from the dead, is it?

Now what? Show me how to determine the "critically derived" claim of other prophets from mine.

 

[c0de]

Now what? Show me how to determine the "critically derived" claim of other prophets from mine.

Why are you pretending like the only thing standing between you and
faith is reason and rationality? If you lose a debate to a Buddhist, would
you convert to Buddhism? Of course not. No one works like that.

You know there are people who still believe that the earth is flat....
You know why? Its not because a "critically derived" claim for a
spherical earth is lacking. They have their own biases which hold them
to their beliefs, just as you are held to yours and I am held to mine.

Neither of us, and no one here is "objective". Only the blindest of people
think they have achieved total objectivity.

 

[enlightenment]

That's because today's miracle workers are all false prophets who don't perform real miracles.

We haven't met miracle workers because at the moment there are none. Some time in the future when the world is facing tough times, miracle workers and wonder workers will be in great demand. Their works will be far more spectacular than the insignificant tricks that today's alleged miracle workers perform. Their miracles will be fool-proof, defying the natural laws of the universe. Even the most sceptical of scientists will be stunned.

And you know this how?

 

[enlightenment]

Of course. All it takes is for someone to get enough people to buy into his proclamations and YES, the latest and greatest designer prophet.

"Critical analysis tells me that Zeus is god." What if I assert it's been revealed to me that David Koresh is the Spiritual "Good" Twin of Charles Manson and the hope of humanity. Or, Jim Jones was in fact a prophet. He certainly had a slacked-jawed mass of followers who would prop up his prophet’ hoodness.

None of this is any more or less outlandish than asserting a man is a god who rose from the dead, is it?

Now what? Show me how to determine the "critically derived" claim of other prophets from mine.

There likely isn't a difference, right enough.

I am quite sure that if Derren Brown had lived 2000 years ago, then there would have been throngs of people who would have hailed him as both a prophet, and a man of supernatural powers.

If you take my point.

 

[Nick_A]

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


Old Testament
Isaiah 5:20

Perhaps we find it so difficult to recognize false prophets because we don't really appreciate objective good and evil. Instead we are too busy defending our acquired subjective concepts.

 

[Resigned]

There likely isn't a difference, right enough.

I am quite sure that if Derren Brown had lived 2000 years ago, then there would have been throngs of people who would have hailed him as both a prophet, and a man of supernatural powers.

If you take my point.

That’s really a great example. As far as I’m concerned, gods are invented for many reasons. One of those reasons can be attributed to little more than human egotism and / or greed. If you think about the environmental and social and dynamics that go/went into building religions, the truth is, they are not all that difficult to build. They’re so easy, in fact, they can be built by most anyone.

The model is to get a group of people to commit to both you and your ideas. Then it's a matter of surviving by fending off attacks against you from those who believe in a competitive believe system.
I present to you as a great "for instance": Scientology. The “belief system” (and for many, a full fledged religion), was literally conceived pursuant to a bet L. Ron Hubbard floated where he predicted he could devise a religion and do as well as J. Christ.

Certainly, he didn't, but his religion blossomed full once he found his "hook" -- psychology.
He cleverly painted psychology as a "demon art" against what one might call the far more "intellectual" Dianetics, Hubbard was able to ensnare millions who had had difficult experiences with psychologists. It was a brilliant maneuver, because anyone who has ever been in therapy understands you are liable to have a really difficult time with it. If you’re in therapy, it’s either to address some maladjustment anyway, (which is the purpose for going to the shrink in the first place), or you are presently in therapy with a shrink, which can be a very brutal experience. Anyone who has been through therapy can attest to the wrenchingly difficult aspects of the process that involves dredging up experiences you consciousness has buried. If you bail out during those first, delicate few weeks or even months you will likely reject psychoanalysis as evil. Hubbard knew this and lordy man, did he exploit it.

 

[enlightenment]

That’s really a great example.

Thanks.

Here's a bit on top.

If we went back in time, left a few Derren Brown dvd's, together with instructions on how to watch the footage, what do you think the outcome would have been?

I shall try to have a guess.

Either the natives would have considered him a 'demon', and killed him, or they would consider him as 'divine', and revere him.

Then probably kill him anyway!

 

[juantoo3]

The planet earth. How old is it, factoring in whatever faith you happen to have, into the equation? What is your straight and pointed answer to that one?

And it would be especially interesting to hear from a theist who also considered themselves to be of a scientific mind...

As old as it is, however old that happens to be.

 

[juantoo3]

Some even think that man and the dinosaurs co-existed!

OOOP, you had me up to this.

Are you really so certain humans and dinosaurs did not co-exist? Are you absolutely certain they still do not co-exist even today?

Hint: alligators, crocodiles and caimans, turtles and tortoises, and sharks all have direct lines straight back into the ages of dinosaurs...clearly *not* extinct. And then we have these persistent rumors of Nessie and her cousins...and let's not forget Mkele Mbembe. The sirrush of the gate of Ishtar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirrush ), the Cambodian temple at Ta Prohm ( http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia.htm ), or the "Manco" of Chinchayunga, Peru ( http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-art.htm ). And then we have all these persistent mythologies of dragons that circle the globe...

Just something to think about. It *is* good to question authority.