Christians: Do you accept the supernatural and the miracles of the NT?

Are they rare?

Have you read any books by MDs on healings that have occurred outside of their medical understanding? Or on autopsies that indicate cancer, heart disease that healed itself without medical intervention?

How about the Northern Lights, is that rare, does that make it a miracle? Of course it was at one time, so was the rainbow...rare, but when conditions are right normal...or is it G!d saying he'll never flood the earth again?

I've watched the arthritic walk, with miraculous healing, no, with natural healing. Accupunture, poo poo-ed (actual term) by science and medicine for years...miraculous or quackery? oops NIH now admits, insurance pays for, healing via chakras and meridians using a life force that can't be seen. Miraculous or Natural...what we don't understand we called miraculous...how quaint.

I concur with the medical evidence that there have been instances of cancer disappering, this has happened with a couple of members in my church, but it doesn't do much good for those who are going through the autopsy to have their cancer cured, does it?

Northern lights and rainbows can be explained by the refraction of the suns rays upon the earth's atmosphere and so forth, so there is really no miracle there.
 
Northern lights and rainbows can be explained by the refraction of the suns rays upon the earth's atmosphere and so forth, so there is really no miracle there.
whoops...so you do discount G!d giving us the rainbow, as an indication that he will never flood the earth again...Noah is allegory, metaphor in your mind...I so often get bashed for picking and choosing...

and yes, the healing of the diseases found in the autopsy did benefit the patients...years, decades of life, prior to their eventual demise. Our current understanding about this plane is no one gets out alive. Unless of course you want to get into everlasting life...and then who cares about the autopsy?
 
whoops...so you do discount G!d giving us the rainbow, as an indication that he will never flood the earth again...Noah is allegory, metaphor in your mind...I so often get bashed for picking and choosing...

Just because there is a rainbow as a sign doesn't make it a miraculous sign, even metaphorically.

BTW, you've used the word metaphor several times now, one for Noah and one for the parting of the Red Sea. I am interested in what manner do you see these as metaphors. What meaning do they convey to you?

I don't see that I've bashed you. I know you take a non-literal approach position to much that is in scripture. Sometimes, though, you can be vague. Where do you draw the line between what is literal and what is not? Just on the miraculous issues? If it is miraculous does that make it irrational?

and yes, the healing of the diseases found in the autopsy did benefit the patients...years, decades of life, prior to their eventual demise. Our current understanding about this plane is no one gets out alive. Unless of course you want to get into everlasting life...and then who cares about the autopsy?

Oh ok, I just misread you.

Yes, we are all on this plane bound to crash...no survivors.
 
Another thing I've noticed about the miracles of the Bible is that they occurred where God's presence was strongly revealed, esp in the person of Jesus Christ for example in the NT.

Two points made by others above worth note is that they are motivated by compassion (healing, feeding, comforting) and/or as signs which point to God's presence and will.
 
I recently read CS Lewis' Miracles:


Amazon.com: Miracles: C. S. Lewis: Books

This book is not as easy as some of his other work, but it does a great job at pointing out the circular thinking that we all participate in and demonstrates that the supernatural is not only not contradictory to reason, but easily conceived as necessary for reason.

His argument, in short, is that the validity of reason can't be proven by reason. So, if we rely upon reason to find truth then we have already included a supernatural basis for reason. If reason is merely that which is useful, it is not reliable to find truth, so any philosophical system is underminded from the start. Actually, most philosophy has arrrived at this same conclusion, which is why we are in the post-modern period.

The only problem is that postmodernism is not the way we actually experience and live our lives. We do find meaning, we do assert truth, we do have values, and we do hold ourselves and others accountable for our actions.

As soon as the materialist asserts a truth that she asks us all to buy into, she's cut off at the knees by her own philosophy.
 
Just because there is a rainbow as a sign doesn't make it a miraculous sign, even metaphorically.

BTW, you've used the word metaphor several times now, one for Noah and one for the parting of the Red Sea. I am interested in what manner do you see these as metaphors. What meaning do they convey to you?

I don't see that I've bashed you. I know you take a non-literal approach position to much that is in scripture. Sometimes, though, you can be vague. Where do you draw the line between what is literal and what is not? Just on the miraculous issues? If it is miraculous does that make it irrational?



Oh ok, I just misread you.

Yes, we are all on this plane bound to crash...no survivors.
Namaste Dondi...

No I am not indicating you bash me... but in general it seems we all pick and choose.

So the rainbow...did refraction not occur prior to Noah and only then G!d invented it?

Metaphors in the flood and the Red Sea...I'll start another thread, when I get some time in front of the computer. Water is interesting stuff, back to metaphors and miracles... turning water into wine...another miraculous metaphor or metaphorical miracle...
 
Marsh, I appreciated your encouragement. Very small things can have a very big impact, like sand jammed in a gun barrel breaks it. The thing is, we all want to make our insignificance into significance, especially me. I really like the idea that a string of misfortunes could mean I am going to accomplish something big. Its an interesting idea.
 
Now again you misquote me. You say I think all of the bible is fabricated? No, I say I don't believe it contains exact word for word quotes...you can't play back the tape...and notes weren't taken as it was said...and Jesus didn't evidently write anything worthy of keeping.

Actually what you have said is that none of it can be considered reliable as it's all hearsay and assumption, and that later editors have added material of their own fabrication, rather than pass on what they received.

The main point however is you choose to believe which bits of Scripture suit you, and you choose to ignore those bits that don't.

So my context is correct, and just because I am using your sword doesn't mean it isn't still as sharp as when in your hands.
No, but it does show you to be something of a hypocrite — as when I quote scripture at you, you dismiss it ...

but the same one I do...
No, sadly Wil, we don't believe in the same thing at all.

I tend to think you've just bolted Jesus as a front-man onto a form of a neoBuddhist [hilosophy.

Thomas
 
wil said:
So the rainbow...did refraction not occur prior to Noah and only then G!d invented it?

Oh, you're going for the old 'canopy before the flood' trick.

Metaphors in the flood and the Red Sea...I'll start another thread, when I get some time in front of the computer. Water is interesting stuff, back to metaphors and miracles... turning water into wine...another miraculous metaphor or metaphorical miracle...


That would be an interesting thread. I look forward to it.
 
According to Bultman, the miracles were irrelevant to Jesus' mission and also to the Christian faith.
Theology Today - Vol 17, No. 1 - April 1960 - ARTICLE - From A Marburg Sermon

On the other hand, I can also see why we're intrigued with finding signs of G-d's presence. Maybe it's because we're looking for these things: (1) confirmation of Jesus' divinity, (2) proof of that his teachings are valid, (3) an antidote for a lack of faith, (4) a transformation of the world into something that transcends the mundane/predictable, (5) new light or inspiration to jumpstart our lives.
 
So what evidence do you have of miracles?

Indeed, why are miracles so rare? They seemed to occur with great regularity just a few thousand years ago. One might explain that God is testing our faith, but the most logical explanation is that they never occurred in the first place.

What conditions changed that suddenly put an end to these miracles? I would suggest it was a greater understanding of the natural world. The more we understand, the fewer miracles manifest.

What is your explanation for that?



You haven't just hit it, C; you've clobbered it-- but not in the way you intended. Your skepticism, which is prevalent throughout the "Christian" world (the West, I mean), is the reason why miracles are few in comparison to times past. Not that God is withholding them from us because he's upset that our society questions him, but rather why would he perform a miracle if the people who experience will in turn busy themselves with trying to manufacture a rational, natural explanation?

An Illustration:

MIDDLE EAST- There was continued debate today over the deaths of several hundred prophets of Baal, who were killed last week during a religious ceremony. Eye witness accounts suggest that fire fell from the sky and consumed the prophets, who had spent the whole morning trying to convince Baal to set fire to an offering they had placed on their altar. Further sources suggest that this fire appeared upon the request of a Hebrew prophet named Elijah.

However, evidence has surfaced today that casts doubt upon the legitimacy of this claim. "The middle east is an oil-rich area," explains soil scientist Benjamin bar Jonah, "and the day in question was very hot. It is quite possible that with the heat of the day and the fervent dancing of the prophets stirred up flammable trace molecules in the soil which, in the dense heat, would have accumulated over the course of the morning and settled upon the area in question. A simple spark could have caused an instantaneous blaze of spontaneous combustion."

Mr. bar Jonah is not the only one who is questioning the so-called miracle. Queen Jezebel herself insists that the tragedy was an act of terrorism.

"My prophets are legitimate," she said in an interview earlier this morning, "and a constant source of jealousy within a rebel faction led by this Elijah, who is nothing more than a terrorist whose weapon of choice is a firebomb. The fact that he challenged my prophets to this competition was not an accident, but rather an act of cold-blooded murder."

Footage of the event was posted on YouTube shortly afterwards, but even it has become the subject of intense scrutiny. "All video can be edited and made to look like it shows something it does not," explains Professor I.M. Natbaleevinit of the Communications Department at the University of Jericho.

"Anybody with a cursory knowledge of video editing could have taken raw footage of a religious ceremony, and then added special effects to make it look as if some bizarre event had happened, such as fire falling from the sky. For all we know, those prophets could have been paid actors.”





When the Pharisees challenged Jesus to perform a sign in order to prove his authority, Jesus told them to go take a hike (loose translation:)) How much more a society which demands everything be proven beyond a reasonable doubt before it believes?
 
Not that God is withholding them from us because he's upset that our society questions him, but rather why would he perform a miracle if the people who experience will in turn busy themselves with trying to manufacture a rational, natural explanation?

I would think that God would just perform the miracles as he always did and let the chips fall where they may. You're saying that just because someone offers an rational theory, God is deciding to withhold his majesty.

Do you really think God operates this way?

I would suggest that there are incredible phenomena occurring that in the past would be interpreted as miracles simply because the rational explanation was beyond our understanding. But that doesn't make the occurrence less incredible... just not divine.

Take your example. People stomping around in the desert are able to raise combustible particulates that under the right conditions can be set off in a blazing, deadly conflagration? That may not be a miracle, but it is pretty freaking amazing.

Ain't life grand?
 
It just occurred to me (again) in answering greymare's thread that awesome nature miracles might be used by nefarious beings to fool people. We are very tempted to follow the power, but remember the 'power' of Jesus: self-sacrificing love and death on the cross.
 
No. No. Please feel free to badger me as much as you like.

"Give not that which is holy unto the DOGS, neither cast your pearls before SWINE, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and REND you [‘tear you in pieces’ Goodspeed Translation]" (Matt. 7:6).

And one more "no", I don't believe in the scriptures.

Then your opinion means nothing to me...You're on a Christian forum by the way, are you lost?

...I am able to look at your religion and see the exact same thing.

I'm sure you offend everyone here with that quote, but you do not offend me... My, my, citizenezen, what do you mistake me for? A Christian? A JW? I do not follow mankind's puny religions...
 
Then your opinion means nothing to me...You're on a Christian forum by the way, are you lost?

Nope. I just like to talk to people.

I'm sure you offend everyone here with that quote, but you do not offend me...

Is this a koan?



BTW, I'm happy to have made your acquaintance Azure. I'm sure we'll have lots to talk about. And you know what? You and all Christians are welcome to chat in the Buddhist threads anytime. :)
 
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