Thoughts?

[Lunitik]

I wrote this elsewhere on the boards, but I would like the reactions of a wider audience:

I am actually pleased that awareness of Islam is growing in the West, and I hope Muslims are becoming more aware of Christianity in the Middle East. It is horrible that the old Crusade fiascoes still are being repeated time and time again. I hope the next generation of Muslims are paying attention to the follies of their current leaders and once things settle down they will begin to reach out to the rest of the world more often. Today, this is happening to a large extent, there are frequent interfaith gatherings where all major traditions are represented. Every faith teaches oneness and unity, how each of us are intimately woven together, we must move this to a worldly vision - but not by extinguishing everyone that doesn't hold our view. This must be realized by concentrating on similarities rather than differences, where there is hate, the seed of love must be planted. These disputes are age old, they have shaped the traditions because Christians, Muslims, and Jews are more concerned with differentiating from each other than in discovering truth, that their beliefs are exactly the same and that men have created the differences to grow their own power. Man cannot act justly when presented with power, always he loses perspective of his place. These faiths teach the sovereignty of God, yet decides men should be rulers instead. Settle civil issues, assign punishments based on agreed law, and let God - Allah or Yehwah, name doesn't matter for it is of human origin - guide.

This is why the East is so much more advanced spiritually compared to the West, they have accepted the guidance of God - Dharmakaya or Brahman, more names of the one created by man - and are concentrated on drawing nearer to him rather than disputing which name of God is preferred, which guiding light towards realization of oneness is most correct. When we are disputing these differences, we are ensuring we never attain to God's favor, for we are doing exactly what he has warned against repeatedly through history. The Muslims say Nothing exists save God, the Christians say We have our being in God and he in us, the Buddhist says everything is interconnected, the Hindu says we are all part of God, this is what is important, not which explanation is used for discovering the truth of it. It is difficult in a world of diversity to register the union of everything, but at least lets agree it is only possible that each has described the same source. Every differentiation must be dropped, at least when addressing one another, for humankind to unify and establish sustained peace.

If this is not realized, we will blow up this planet eventually. What if we're all wrong? What if we have all put our faith in something which is a lie? If there is no more earth, it becomes rather difficult to apologize and take it back, we are left without even the possibility of children so a part of us remains in the manifested reality. We must realize that each of us is faced with the same struggles in this life, the same conditions, if God wishes the extermination of a group of people he could do it for he is Omnipotent. Rather, he wants us to understand the follies of separation, from over-emphasis on the material at the expense of the spiritual, that we must create a balance between the extremes. What right do any of us have to do anything but improve the conditions of those around us? Certainly, I uphold the One, but it is still an interesting question.

 

[Vajradhara]

hi Lunitik,

naturally, i'd advocate a Middle Way between extremes

there are, of course, plenty of wars and conflict and violence et al. in the East even amongst the Dharma traditions so i would be hesitant to use that as an sort of indication of spiritual maturity or development.

metta,

~v

 

[Paladin]

I seem to remember a story about a student of a renowned guru who opined that the East had such spiritual riches while the West had the material wealth, and wondered how this could be. The master replied, "Well, they got first pick"

 

[Lunitik]

hi Lunitik,

naturally, i'd advocate a Middle Way between extremes

there are, of course, plenty of wars and conflict and violence et al. in the East even amongst the Dharma traditions so i would be hesitant to use that as an sort of indication of spiritual maturity or development.

metta,

~v

I did not intend my writing to be representative of an extreme at all, I only wished to convey that developing hatred based on teachings about building pure love is simply disgusting. If we actually looked into each others traditions rather than merely assuming everyone else must be wrong, we would see similarities at every turn.

 

[Lunitik]

I seem to remember a story about a student of a renowned guru who opined that the East had such spiritual riches while the West had the material wealth, and wondered how this could be. The master replied, "Well, they got first pick"

This is the Middle Way I attempted to convey, that it is better to find balance between material and spiritual rather than give either precedence.

 

[Vajradhara]

I did not intend my writing to be representative of an extreme at all, I only wished to convey that developing hatred based on teachings about building pure love is simply disgusting. If we actually looked into each others traditions rather than merely assuming everyone else must be wrong, we would see similarities at every turn.

i agree with both sentiments.

within the context of my tradition, any spiritual tradition which espouses a valid moral and ethical path is a Spiritual Refuge. i think that, even amongst some Buddhists, it would be helpful to have such an understanding more widespread.

i am one of those sorts that having found the commonalities amongst the traditions which i study seek out the discretely individually unique teachings and philosophies which abound within those traditions.

metta,

~v

 

[luecy7]

Do you like it when someone else takes the time to think your words through? If not, then why do you ask for thoughts?

It is good to hear that the people of the East have advanced to no longer engage in land grabs, oil grabs, material wealth, government, and wars... all of those physically minded things.

 

[luecy7]

What if we have all put our faith in something which is a lie?

Faith in someone who lies? What happens when you have faith in someone, who lies?

 

[Saltmeister]

It is good to hear that the people of the East have advanced to no longer engage in land grabs, oil grabs, material wealth, government, and wars... all of those physically minded things.

Blessed are the meek!!!

.....for they will survive the coming catastrophe foreshadowed by the Mayan prophecies.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

well the East is a big place and if you keep going you end up back in the West etc

as for the East being more spiritually advanced the entire notion is bull faeces, even the notion of levels of spirituality is pretentious garbage.

 

[Lunitik]

Do you like it when someone else takes the time to think your words through? If not, then why do you ask for thoughts?

It is good to hear that the people of the East have advanced to no longer engage in land grabs, oil grabs, material wealth, government, and wars... all of those physically minded things.

When they think of my words, they decipher through their own rationales and thus the words cease to be mine. Of course, this is the purpose of this thread, so I am not sure the point of your question?

In the West, there are so few genuinely spiritual figures, I can only really think of Meister Eckhart. In the Middle East there are more, these are primarily via the Sufi schools. In the East, there are many through all the various schools. This is because the further you get from Asia, the more negative the views are of those which have experienced spiritual advancement until eventually it is considered insane.

 

[luecy7]

When they think of my words, they decipher through their own rationales and thus the words cease to be mine. Of course, this is the purpose of this thread, so I am not sure the point of your question?

When I asked you on the 'spiritual person' thread if you like it when someone else takes the time to think your words through, your reply was 'no'. Yet, here you ask others for thoughts upon your words. Of course someone else's thoughts are not your words, but they can be focused on your words. You don't expect people to just pass your beliefs off as fact, do you?

In the West, there are so few genuinely spiritual figures, I can only really think of Meister Eckhart. In the Middle East there are more, these are primarily via the Sufi schools. In the East, there are many through all the various schools. This is because the further you get from Asia, the more negative the views are of those which have experienced spiritual advancement until eventually it is considered insane.

You express racism or ethnocentrism. What makes you think that your measure or familiarity of individuals anywhere across the planet is anything but very, very small, including what you attribute towards being spiritual? Your measure of the character of people in the past is even worse.

 

[Lunitik]

When I asked you on the 'spiritual person' thread if you like it when someone else takes the time to think your words through, your reply was 'no'. Yet, here you ask others for thoughts upon your words. Of course someone else's thoughts are not your words, but they can be focused on your words. You don't expect people to just pass your beliefs off as fact, do you?

You see contradiction because you want to see it, my answer is still no, I dislike it a great deal. It becomes difficult to converse, however, when you do not permit others to apply their own meaning to your words. In this thread, my words are intended to guide towards a common thread of thought, and I am requesting feedback along that line. Generally, making my words your own is very presumptuous and rude.

You express racism or ethnocentrism. What makes you think that your measure or familiarity of individuals anywhere across the planet is anything but very, very small, including what you attribute towards being spiritual? Your measure of the character of people in the past is even worse.

I simply do not see many spiritual beings in the West, not truly. In the East, through Buddhism and Hinduism, people are not held back spiritually, people accept certain traits much easier, they are simply more open to such things. In the West, such people are considered insane, if you say you have experienced God they will laugh, spirituality or at least spiritual attainment is not accepted at all.

It is funny you say this is racism or ethnocentrism, I am saying my own race and ethnicity have a negative perspective of such endeavors - I am a white guy born in England and living in the States. It is not that I am an Indian or Asian saying my people are superior in these areas, it is merely an observation based on truth.

 

[luecy7]

You see contradiction because you want to see it...

False, fabrication.

It becomes difficult to converse, however, when you do not permit others to apply their own meaning to your words.

It takes two to communicate.

Generally, making my words your own is very presumptuous and rude.

Reading copyrighted material does make a measurement and copy of it, whether that is presumptuous and rude or not.

I simply do not see many spiritual beings in the West, not truly.

I question whether you have seen any. You should think on this.

In the East, through Buddhism and Hinduism, people are not held back spiritually, people accept certain traits much easier, they are simply more open to such things.

China has certainly become known for copying things.

In the West, such people are considered insane, if you say you have experienced God they will laugh, spirituality or at least spiritual attainment is not accepted at all.

Do you find laughing offensive? I would probably laugh too. What you would call spirituality and spiritual attainment is very different than what I would call spirituality and spiritual attainment.

It is funny you say this is racism or ethnocentrism, I am saying my own race and ethnicity have a negative perspective of such endeavors - I am a white guy born in England and living in the States. It is not that I am an Indian or Asian saying my people are superior in these areas, it is merely an observation based on truth.

I can see that you believe a good cook is the result of a good recipe, and good bread is the result of good yeast. Who decided what was good?

Have you met and interacted with every being in the East and West? Any? Your observation is known as a generalization, a model that you have fabricated to fit your data points, perhaps, but to suggest something much more. While it is refreshing to see a contrarian generalization, it is still a contrived generalization.

 

[Lunitik]

False, fabrication.

If you say so.

It takes two to communicate.

It takes one to communicate, and another to listen. Western views of prayer are a good example of this, there is only one present for the communication.

Reading copyrighted material does make a measurement and copy of it, whether that is presumptuous and rude or not.

You miss my point... not surprising.

Do you think, when you read someone elses work, that you are understanding what they intended? Rarely, it is most often your interpretation. Think of it like this:

If I told you everything about my street, described the houses and some of the landmarks around, you would paint a picture in your head about it. How accurate do you think that picture will be if you actually came to my house?

I question whether you have seen any. You should think on this.

That is your prerogative.

China has certainly become known for copying things.

Your point here is what exactly?

Do you find laughing offensive? I would probably laugh too. What you would call spirituality and spiritual attainment is very different than what I would call spirituality and spiritual attainment.

Obviously, very different.

I can see that you believe a good cook is the result of a good recipe, and good bread is the result of good yeast. Who decided what was good?

No, I think that teaching things which harm spiritual growth... umm... harms spiritual growth.

Have you met and interacted with every being in the East and West? Any? Your observation is known as a generalization, a model that you have fabricated to fit your data points, perhaps, but to suggest something much more. While it is refreshing to see a contrarian generalization, it is still a contrived generalization.

I have listed a single Catholic mystic that has genuinely perceived spiritual attainment, St Francis of Assasi is perhaps another. That is an enlightened being from Christianity every 1,000 years. In the last 100 years in India I can name at least 20 enlightened masters, and I can name several more in China and Japan. I can even name at least 5 times the enlightened masters coming from Islam since its inauguration some 700 years after Jesus.

My statements are based on facts, on in depth research into the matter and a genuine interest in finding a unified message from God throughout the faiths. You clearly are offended by the lack of genuine results from Christianity, but this is really about your own bias not whether my statement is wrong.

 

[luecy7]

If you say so.

Another false. Another fabrication.

It takes one to communicate, and another to listen. Western views of prayer are a good example of this, there is only one present for the communication.

It takes two to communicate.

Do you think, when you read someone elses work, that you are understanding what they intended? Rarely, it is most often your interpretation. Think of it like this:

If I told you everything about my street, described the houses and some of the landmarks around, you would paint a picture in your head about it. How accurate do you think that picture will be if you actually came to my house?

You accuse me of a vivid imagination.

Your point here is what exactly?

I witness and agree with you that the East is open to copying things.

No, I think that teaching things which harm spiritual growth... umm... harms spiritual growth.

I see that you think that a bad cook is the result of a bad recipe.

I have listed a single Catholic mystic that has genuinely perceived spiritual attainment, St Francis of Assasi is perhaps another. That is an enlightened being from Christianity every 1,000 years. In the last 100 years in India I can name at least 20 enlightened masters, and I can name several more in China and Japan. I can even name at least 5 times the enlightened masters coming from Islam since its inauguration some 700 years after Jesus.

My statements are based on facts, on in depth research into the matter and a genuine interest in finding a unified message from God throughout the faiths. You clearly are offended by the lack of genuine results from Christianity, but this is really about your own bias not whether my statement is wrong.

I see generalizations upon generalizations. By what information are you calling anyone an, 'enlightened master'?

It looks like you wish people to take your generalizations as fact. Why do you accuse me of being offended by your generalizations? There are no shortage of generalizations and opinions in the world.

 

[Lunitik]

Another false. Another fabrication.

According to you.

It takes two to communicate.

If I communicate to myself via a post-it note, there is only one, thus you are wrong.

You accuse me of a vivid imagination.

I accuse you of nothing, I accuse language of being inefficient.

I witness and agree with you that the East is open to copying things.

State something within the spiritual spectrum which the East has copied.

I see that you think that a bad cook is the result of a bad recipe.

You do not believe in cause and effect? Otherwise known as karma.

I see generalizations upon generalizations. By what information are you calling anyone an, 'enlightened master'?

Their energy and teachings towards oneness.

It looks like you wish people to take your generalizations as fact. Why do you accuse me of being offended by your generalizations? There are no shortage of generalizations and opinions in the world.

I make no generalizations, you simply do not understand the specifics.

 

[luecy7]

According to you.

Yes, what I want to see is according to me. What you wish, that I wish to see... is according to you.

If I communicate to myself via a post-it note, there is only one, thus you are wrong.

Entirely different concept. That is better known as memory.

I accuse you of nothing, I accuse language of being inefficient.

Do you accuse a gun of killing someone?

State something within the spiritual spectrum which the East has copied.

That would be asking me to state a fact about your generalization, that your generalization has copied. It is your generalization, so state it yourself.

You do not believe in cause and effect? Otherwise known as karma.

That would be one way to cook.

Their energy and teachings towards oneness.

I make no generalizations, you simply do not understand the specifics.

You are different, knowing the specifics of people you have never even met, interacted with, or conversed with? You see some curves and people in a magazine or a book, and you claim to know the people, even proclaiming them an enlightened master.

 

[Lunitik]

You are different, knowing the specifics of people you have never even met, interacted with, or conversed with? You see some curves and people in a magazine or a book, and you claim to know the people, even proclaiming them an enlightened master.

The knower recognizes another which knows, I cannot explain it to someone that does not. Sorry.

 

[luecy7]

The knower recognizes another which knows, I cannot explain it to someone that does not. Sorry.

I am at peace knowing quite a bit less than everything, so that I can focus on the responsibility, actions, people, and situation in front of me. Afterall, knowing everything would include being evil, and where is the good in that? Should you wish to see some of the world from my perspective, so that you can explain yourself better, you are invited.