Can we agree on truth if Science explains is?

I have said nothing about drugs not being beneficial, they are neither good or bad, I have only said that they bring a hint of something higher while paling in comparison.
I agree, and I predict you have done a fair range of drugs.

I see the art of science as being divided into theory and experiment. I think every drug user is an exceptional experimental scientist, but not necessarily so good with caring about the theory, and not so good with trusting those who advise that they not pursue some experiments.

My statements about your opinions are based on what you have expressed to me, if your genuine opinions differ from that which you have presented to me then you are a hypocrite or lack communication skills.
So you think I am at fault if you do not predict my opinions correctly. That is interesting. Who will be at fault if I don't predict your opinion correctly?

Do you think it is saintly to run from pleasures?
I think it is wise to learn what pleasures are, and what they are not, of why you think it is pleasing, and why someone else doesn't.

Treasures are worthless, I have not raised this topic. Treasures are merely a representation of materialism. They represent one extreme, just as asceticism and renunciation represent another. We must accept all aspects of life, but placing emphasis on such as this is flawed.
It seemed you have been recommending that I treasure enlightenment, and to treasure the pleasures of meditation.

This is not a life, this is a character playing a part. Difference between you and I is I understand I am playing a role. This probably seems against my last statement, but it is not. We are here to enjoy what is available, we can enjoy more if we understand it is all a game.
So you are just an actor. Who writes your script?
 
Was Buddha convincing with his demonstrations of Hindu Dharma? Evidence suggests he was not since the ratio of Hindu to Buddhist today is 4:1 - ~800 million vs ~200 million, conversely, Christ seems quite convincing since he has a following today of ~2.5 billion, where as his predecessor has less than 20 million remaining.

I would contend that the # of people globally that follow a particular religion is more a function of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" and them being born into that particular religion. Not a good indicator of how convincing a particular religion/teaching is, IMHO.
 
I would contend that the # of people globally that follow a particular religion is more a function of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" and them being born into that particular religion. Not a good indicator of how convincing a particular religion/teaching is, IMHO.


Ah yes an excellent book. I'm also reminded of the ancient Chinese saying 'Eat shit: five million flies can't be wrong' ...
 
<argumentative tripe>

I am not here to debate, spiritual pursuit that stays within the mind is meaningless. I have told you I can show, I do not need to be there with you to show, simply try this:

Start thinking of opposites, know that they are necessary to manifest each other. Gradually at first, simply start merging them. The process will gradually speed up and you can simply merge without needing to name any longer. Keep going until mind is sure you are done - that all opposites are merged. Here, you should be left with a single thing, what is this? It is probably not something within you, so are you really done? Can you merge yourself with this? If you can, what is left now?

What will be left is not something you can answer logically, if you are trying to answer with conceptualizations you have not finished at all. You are done when something happens. This is key, mind cannot know what is left, but it will try to answer. Eventually, your mind will cease trying to find the answer, it will stop entirely. When it has stopped, something happens... do not fight it though, just let it keep racing if it wants.



For me, I was left without any idea or view at all, I was left with God at the end because I had come from a Sufi background and applied a Buddhist technique to that. My mind did not race because it had no further concepts or conclusions to offer. I realized that God merely represented other, and I realized this was an opposition as well. I merely merged self and other and experienced oneness first hand. What is the condition of oneness, though? Do not allow the mind to rest on this and think you are done.
 
I see the art of science as being divided into theory and experiment. I think every drug user is an exceptional experimental scientist, but not necessarily so good with caring about the theory, and not so good with trusting those who advise that they not pursue some experiments.

I disagree, most drug users are doing them to fit in socially and for the rush of disobeying. There are various religious traditions that utilize these substances in a constructive way, but in Western culture there is no notion of such things and this creates a great danger.

So you think I am at fault if you do not predict my opinions correctly. That is interesting. Who will be at fault if I don't predict your opinion correctly?

I have said that if your communication skills were stronger, there would not be a way to misconstrue at all. At the same time, I have repeatedly spoken of the inadequacy of language in saying anything meaningful, I think this would also be a factor here despite the simplicity of the discussion.

I think it is wise to learn what pleasures are, and what they are not, of why you think it is pleasing, and why someone else doesn't.

What are pleasures? What pleasures are enjoyable for one person but not for another?

It seemed you have been recommending that I treasure enlightenment, and to treasure the pleasures of meditation.

I have said enjoyment arises from the state of meditation, it is a side effect only, just as enlightenment is a side effect of going deep enough into meditation. Always, it is necessary to appeal to people to begin their pursuit cold, they are goal oriented and essentially greedy. Meditation is a means and an end all of its own, where it takes you is its gift. I do not say that enlightenment isn't a real phenomena but you are quite right when you say it is itself meaningless.

So you are just an actor. Who writes your script?

You would probably say "God", I would say simply that it is existence.
 
Lunitik said:
<pointless pontificating>

i am pleased that you concede the discussion.

when you would like to learn some more of the Buddhadharma please let me know and i'll be more than happy to help though, naturally, i would suggest reading the Buddha's own words regarding the Buddhadharma.

metta,

~v
 
i am pleased that you concede the discussion.

when you would like to learn some more of the Buddhadharma please let me know and i'll be more than happy to help though, naturally, i would suggest reading the Buddha's own words regarding the Buddhadharma.

More ego...

If you want to claim victory, if this accomplishes something for you, be my guest. Do not forget, however, that Buddha has written nothing at all. You are reading the understanding of a follower. You cannot even claim Buddha has said it because there is no way to know.

This is why I do not cling to dead things, I am interested in experience rather than belief in something that cannot speak for itself on a subject.

Again, Buddha himself has said you should not cling to his words, that you should confirm them for yourself before you accept them as truth. Nothing you have said in this thread conforms to my experience, so everything you have pointed to in Buddhas teachings I must reject out of hand.
 
Do you think this is pleasurable for the person which has gone through the procedure? It is merely a situation of trying to find yourself, but they are doing it in the material plane.
Does it matter? The person comes to think it will ultimately be more pleasurable than the alternative, and that is their pursuit. Surely you agree: they won't really know until they try it. The person is placing faith in a living person, or in a living community, to give them something that they have come to crave and desire. Someone of the community is selling it, and providing it. Sort of like drugs: someone in the community believes in using them, sells them, and does provide them.

Who sells and provides the mental masturbation? Achieving that orgasmic pleasure, awareness, or enlightenment, as you have described it from your experience of meditation: who exactly did you place faith in, and why did you come to place faith in them? Was that even a consideration in your decision to pursue it?
 
Does it matter?

Not in the slightest, it is only that you have given this as your example.

Surely you agree: they won't really know until they try it.

Certainly, and you know this because my whole approach is that if you have not tried and confirmed, you cannot claim a truth. Every statement I have made is about locating and facing truth head on, about forgetting about amassing knowledge and simply dive into truth.

The person is placing faith in a living person, or in a living community, to give them something that they have come to crave and desire. Someone of the community is selling it, and providing it. Sort of like drugs: someone in the community believes in using them, sells them, and does provide them.

People do insane things instead of facing truth head on. It is likely that their situation is that of homosexuality, and they think it will be easier to face this if it appears to others to be heterosexual. As all such endeavors, they seek something which is a lie thinking it to be fact. They deny their state of perfection to such an extent that they wish to change something fundamental to their being. Perhaps they think that if the person looking back from the mirror is different, they can drop their discomforts with themselves - what more drastic change is there physically? I have also heard of those that have been comfortable with homosexuality, but have gotten a sex change and will continue to be homosexual with the other sex. This is quite bizarre indeed, for they think that being the same is what creates the comfort, but the comfort is entirely of mind, as is the converse. It is a shame that sometimes it actually works, so the person fails to understand.

Who sells and provides the mental masturbation? Achieving that orgasmic pleasure, awareness, or enlightenment, as you have described it from your experience of meditation: who exactly did you place faith in, and why did you come to place faith in them? Was that even a consideration in your decision to pursue it?

This is actually something strange it seems, unique to myself as far as I can tell. From an early age I have felt that all religions are valid in some way, else why would people follow them? In England, my favorite class was Religious Education because it provided insight into strange cultures and I loved each of their stories. My first ventures into no-mind have been completely accidental. I have become bored in a group conversation and simply entered into my core, then two hours have passed and we are to go home and I am wondering where it has gone. I never knew what it was, but it was quite easy for me. I began seeking synthesizing religions - those which attempt to give an over-arching principle - because I did not wish to choose one over another, for me they were all beautiful but I knew there must be something fundamentally the same. This created in my a great single-mindedness, but never was it particularly guided by a given group. I knew truth cannot be confined to a sequence of opinions. A deep love for what I was discovering arose, a love for existence itself - you may call it God. Then, one day, a simple phrase from Buddha and a simple meditative practice and I was face to face with reality itself. It was no longer questionable, what was just beautiful texts has been presented in its purest form. Now these scriptures are dead, for I only need re-enter that state and I am back with the living scripture - that which the dead things point.

Perhaps the greatest blessing of my birth is that I have not been programmed for a religion early in life. I have been able to dive into it with a more developed mind, refusing to be pigeon holed because I knew this would create a mediocre presentation. I will say that existence has guided me, and it is what I have faith in. I am not interested in the dead, religion must be a celebration of life, a higher pinnacle of the experience we call life otherwise it is against life. Now I have such joy, such love that I wish others to partake in it, this is my current course, to discover a way to convey through experience for others so they can know it as well. I am not interested in discussing other pointers, I wish to refine my own so that all that is necessary is an open mind and a willingness to try. If I can help others see, there is no need to create a blind-mans-cane. The cane misses the point, the person is blind and you have treated the symptom - he bangs into things and harms himself, you try to prevent this - but it is because most will not see that the cane must be given them. I am not interested in lost causes.
 
Lunitik said:
Buddhas teachings I must reject out of hand.

again something that i can agree with.

i knew that we could find common ground if we only put our mind to it ;)

metta,

~v
 
More ego...

If you want to claim victory, if this accomplishes something for you, be my guest. Do not forget, however, that Buddha has written nothing at all. You are reading the understanding of a follower. You cannot even claim Buddha has said it because there is no way to know.

This is why I do not cling to dead things, I am interested in experience rather than belief in something that cannot speak for itself on a subject.

Again, Buddha himself has said you should not cling to his words, that you should confirm them for yourself before you accept them as truth. Nothing you have said in this thread conforms to my experience, so everything you have pointed to in Buddhas teachings I must reject out of hand.

Wait, what?
 
Wait, what?

Buddha is the author of Buddhism, but you cannot say it is definitely Sidhartha.

I have only failed to separate the two clearly, but a lot of Buddhism today directly goes against what the earliest texts have set as the norm. For instance, the early texts refuse to say what comes after death, today Buddhism has Bardo.
 
Originally Posted by Lunitik
More ego...

If you want to claim . . .


If some one whats to speak authoritatively . . . one MUST should Quote authoritative sources.

What to speak of hyperbolic circular automatic writting.

For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So, when citing the Sir Buddha, one MUST should Quote Sir Buddha.

That's what 'buddhi' means.
 
luecy 7, your bust is righteous! Let me apologize, I (while computer, modeling and simulation literate) am quite new to this web-based kind of discussions. I am trying to keep up with all of you.

The first comment (about G d) was a paraphrase of this Ishwara person. I am not that well aquainted with She or He myself. I do comptemplate the Divine (a lot my bride says), but tey not to utter any positive discriptions because I think they all miss the mark (the tao that can be told is not the tao).

Yep, that first 10 should be a one. That is you understood what I meant to say correctly.

Third point, the huge number I generated gives how many quantum transitions have been made in the universe (E 118) or the universe if "many-worlds" (or some such) is true (E 14000). If they are determined (that is, the Lord preordains everything) these are how many decisions the Lord would have had to make before the universe was created (or He/She has a really really quick mind well beyonf the keen of physics).

What I was trying to say is that (in accordance with Occum's razor, kinda) the simple solution (that quantum events are not determined, "Albert, God does play dice") seems much more likely than the Lord preordaining everything (E 118 choices if the universe is determined and it does not split at every quantum event or E 14000 choices if the world is allowed to split via the "many-worlds" theory). Does this make more sense, I agree with what you are saying and accept responsiblity for my flawed verbiage.

On point four. Another foul-up (if you give me the time, I will learn how to express myself better). Absolute "Truth" and absolute "Fact" do (for the most part) not exist. You cannot use math or science or decutive logic to provide absolute proof in the world of experience. One must use one noodle (I use abduction, bayesian probability theory and decision theory... but my job as a risk analyst takes me there) to decide what is closer to the truth (or fact or proof) in light of "ample justification" (does one have sufficient reason to believe in the thruth). It is not mere preference, but justified and reasoned preference (see Aristotle -- I am dang near that old, not really).

I do not quite understand your last point. What do you mean? I was pointing out that once my friends who are Orthodox (within the context, this, I thought, was obviously tied to "Oriental" or "Eastern" Orthodox, branches of earlly Christianity) pointed out that for them, The Septuagent (OT in Greek), was inerrant as a "matter of faith" and I pointed out that I believe it isn't (all words on paper are the product of people, even if Divinely inspired or dictated), we could talk about things in it (like pi being defined as three) without getting into the "I am right and you're wrong" game. We discuss and prode and poke and push our understanding. Thus we come to the place where Native Americans start -- "Trouble no one about his religion.
Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours."

Understand what I meant now?

Pax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
 
If some one whats to speak authoritatively . . . one MUST should Quote authoritative sources.

What to speak of hyperbolic circular automatic writting.

For example:
Automatic writing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So, when citing the Sir Buddha, one MUST should Quote Sir Buddha.

That's what 'buddhi' means.

you'll note, i'm sure, that lunitik has no need for such things and actively disparages them when possible. i cannot fathom how such an endeavor is skillful in any manner and, indeed, seems to be a markedly unskillful in most aspects.

of course, you'll also note that he's happy to quote things when he thinks they serve his purpose and then just as readily dismiss them. an interesting dichotomy don't you think?

metta,

~v
 
Originally Posted by Radarmark
Absolute "Truth" and absolute "Fact" do not exist.

You cannot use math or science or decutive logic to provide absolute proof in the world of experience.

One must use one noodle . . . but my job as a risk analyst takes me there . .
to decide what is closer to the truth (or fact or proof) in light of "ample justification".


How can one assert Absolute "Truth" and absolute "Fact" do not exist?

Are the locations of the letters on the computer key board randomly shifting?

Do the local people speak random dialects when encountered?

Does the "Scientific Method" result in the "Same Result" each time?

Sometimes, do numerals look like other numerals?

Does substituting one number for another sometimes eases the drudgery of the daily routine of punching numbers?

Is one telephone number the same as any other telephone Number?

Is "Speculation" and "Engineering-Sciences of computations" one and the same endeavor?
 
There is not 100% certainty that what you see and experiece is real. It is always possible you are a brain in a vat being fed all of this (the Matrix is possible). It is possible that solipsism (see wikipedia if you are not familiar with the term) is true and only I exist and I was created with false memories just now. It is possible that the Moon just isn't there is we do not experience it. It is possible that gravity is not real and there are tiny little undetectable angels pulling invisible strings.

It is a matter of possibility and probability. No, it is very, very unlikely any of these are true. But how do we disprove them? Now let us take this up to the non-trivial level. Is astrology true or false (I use this because it was a favorite of Popper's, see Karl Popper in Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy if you are unfamiliar)? If one tahes the scientific bent and say "there is no possible causal linkage between a zodiacal sign and behavior because the two are time-wise separated" the true believer can always reply "it always works for me and everyone I know".

I am just saying demanding 100% truth or 100% fact is (from the hard core scientific and philosophic point-of-view) limiting one to discussing basic math (because of Goedel's Theorem) and deductive logic (because of Hume's problem with induction).

Another classic example is the "problem with eyewitness testimony". Police like foreinsic evidence like DNA or fingerprints because (except in Texas) most of them realize you can get as many different views of what "truthfully" or "factually" happened as there are witnesses.

This is a pretty hard core skeptic viewpoint, but it comes to me after too many years of dealing with too many conspiracy theories (as an intelligence analyst), too many misinterpretations of physics (as a physicist), too much philosophical fluff (as a reader of philosophy), and talking too many friends (not religious coharts, because I am a Quaker, just friends) out of moving into a cave to escape the latest doomsday scenario. Plus, like Thomas, if I met Christ Jesus in the flesh I would probably ask to feel the wounds.

I am afraid I do not grok your last statement 'Is "Speculation" and "Engineering-Sciences of computations" one and the same endeavor?'.

Pax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
 
Thank you for your reply Radarmark.

To address the topic of "Absolute "Truth" and absolute "Fact" do not exist",

I think it suffices to view the topic from a 'risk-management' perspective ---as would an insurance companies statistical charts would show & advise experts, in such work.

"Accidents do not happen on purpose" ---that's is why planning ahead and acquiring back-up insurance.

Insurance companies "cover the spread" [wiki this, seriously] ---using hard data.

By extension, mathamatically, there may be:
a] an infinite scenarios of "Failure"; or
b] there is the successful path.
along with,
c] quantifiable alternative means of combining the two schemes, all for the ends of great financial profit.

So, theoretically, we see that Two Absolute states exist simultaneously:
Random Chaos & Surety.

If all the varigated features of Nature & the cosmos are referred to as innumeral forms and directions and chaotic change ---it would (it's diametrically opposite) be a unified space wherein all transpires.

Here in the world constructed of Ying/Yang Polarities there exists
unlimited quantities of In-absolute Truths/In-absolute Facts ---So there is it's diametrical state of Absolute "Truth" and absolute "Fact".

There are highfalutin lies and there is the simply truth ---That is the nature of nature's duality.

There is two sides of a coin ---and there is the coin.
 
I comprehend. An analogy may be that many-worlds quantum theory allows all potential quantum redults to occurr, and we are trapped in one world with a consistent history.

Fine, it may be true. That alternative world could be where we go beyond duirng union with the divine. I just haven't figured out how to (a) stay there or (b) grok the two as one.

Thanks, a real lesson (who says old dogs can't learn new tricks?)

Pax et amor vincunt omnia, radarmark
 
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