Garden of Eden

[bananabrain]

Well, me for one...

i'm sorry, but bollocks. do you have a spouse? kids? do you have a job? do you pay taxes? do you drive? life is full of choices unless you are alone in an empty room (and even then...). choices are unavoidable - and when you make choices, you have moral agency by reason of your responsibility for those choices. when you make statements like this, you don't come across as "enlightened", but rather as arrogant, out of touch with reality and lacking empathy or insight into the experience of others, let alone familiarity with basic concepts in metaphysics. you have made a choice to come here and speak with us. why bother without a reason? frankly, i think you are in error.

When you are filled with light, when you transcend, you need not practice morality - darkness cannot fight with light, a shadow cannot be in conflict with the object.

then how do you interact with other humans? that is the question that judaism will ask. otherwise, this is metaphysical wafflage.

Sorry, but I am not trying to open a dialog on Judaism here, my point is very limited in focus.

you're telling me. look - if you are talking about a basic and fundamental and, more to the point, famously recondite and misunderstood jewish text, you are in a dialogue on judaism whether you like it or not. i am sorry if that is inconvenient.

in Judaism you go on filling yourself more and more with love for God, then ultimately you become nothing - because you give yourself utterly to God.

in *parts* of judaism. advanced kabbalistic concepts like bittul ha-yesh are practiced only by a small, elite group of highly advanced students - who all, however, are expected to be married with children and a certain amount of experience in life - this gives them contexts and something to return to (this is very different from buddhist or hindu renunciation); the roots in the earth which give you the ability to put branches in the sky.

Essentially these are the polar opposites of religion - either enter through the front door or the back door. It is quite easy to tell which is which, the front door develops love for God, the back door doesn't need God to get you there... both are the same destination: God's living room, if you will.

i think the "religion" you are talking about is a straw man. religious discipline, like any discipline, including mystical, requires hard work and dedication; there is no reason to consider this incompatible with finding the "still small voice in the whirlwind". ask any advanced martial artist or musician.

Past and Future are another duality, only now ever actually exists.

only in G!DSpace - in the universe that we inhabit, they are very definitely real considerations that we ignore at the cost of our humanity.

Serpent comes from a root meaning "self"

not in hebrew, it doesn't, although i will double-check. what's your source?

When you tell a small child not to do something that it hasn't even considered yet, now you have created a curiosity. I want to give more credit to God than to engage in such a stupidity, surely he knows the nature of man and knew sooner or later the fruit was bound to be eaten from this tree. He has made it something very important, out of all the trees in the garden he has pointed out the Trees of Life and Knowledge - they likely never would have found them if he hadn't done this.

precisely!!! it is the equivalent of a big red button labelled "do not press".

perhaps behind the anger he displays he is actually proud because they have become mature - all children go through a stage where they rebel against the parents, it is very necessary to gain independence and individuality.

very much so - that is why arguing with or rebellion against G!D in a principled way is a constant refrain from the Torah through to the classical sources.

Carl Jung: Analytical Psychology The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, yet rather than arrogance and pride I see it as Man's search for Knowledge and the Truth and necessary in order that we might fulfill the destiny of our specifically human nature.

and judaism sees it in a similar way - we are not fully "human" until we make the choice to activate free will and begin our search for knowledge and the truth. in the garden this is not required, but neither can you begin it or stay in the garden. think of it as the choice between being an animal, who is merely a creature of impulse and activity - and a human, who is a creature of choice and responsibility as well. animals cannot sin. humans cannot sin inside the garden. if you want the possibility to choose, you have to go out into the world, or stay coddled in there like a baby - or an angel, which has no moral agency. the "hubris" is merely a misunderstanding of what the snake says to eve: you will become like G!D. well, yes, but there will be consequences for you, unlike for G!D.

The Christian cult was no different in that the Universal Feminine Aspect, Pagan Goddess worship if you will, had to be eradicated. The Fall in the Garden of Eden enabled this to happen and Womankind became the scapegoat for the Sins of all Mankind.

this is not the jewish perspective. we retained the Universal Feminine by transcending it at the same time we transcended the Universal Masculine into the Universal Unity.

The Serpent and the Tree (Caduceus) are forever entwined, they represent the LOGOS in its purely Dualistic sense. The Tree being the growing, mutable, individualized Self while the reptile being the symbol of the immutable, unchanging Collective Unconsciousness.

ooo, that's interesting. i've not come across this before, but it has parallels in at least one kabbalistic soul-structure framework as well as in the sefer yetzirah; i presume this is what the western mystery tradition are referring to when they talk about the "snake in the tree", in reference to what we usually call the "lightning flash", which is the critical path down the tree of life.

I don't see much of a point in the idea of the Fall in something as simple and all too human as the idea of dangling candy in front of a child just to see what happens, but I do agree with you that this Fall is metaphoric for Individuality, Individuism, and I say Freedom of Will (something the Abrahamic god was not ready to let Mankind have just yet).

i don't see it quite like that - free will and choice happens when it happens, whether you are ready for it or not. children develop in fits and starts as well, without reference to a timetable or preparedness. i don't think that G!D's "readiness" has a great deal to do with it - it is, i would suggest, a "half-life" during which the "decay" of non-choice will occur.

the "fall" is certainly for me into unconsciousness

gosh, for us it is a "fall" into humanity from an edenic/angelic/timeless/child/animal state. in a lot of ways, it's the opposite of a "fall".

Much of Christianity would blame The Original Sin upon the incident in the Garden.

which is not our position at all. we don't have an "original sin" in that sense, let alone one linked with sex.

I have tried to show that Jesus' actions towards the fig tree - cursing and ultimately killing an innocent tree, causing it to whither

well, if fruit from the tree of knowledge was a fig, in his view, perhaps it's not as innocent as all that?

Can darkness fight with light, rid the space of the light you have just added? Darkness doesn't exist at all, it is just the absence of light. We have created a personification of darkness to fight against - the Devil - but it is just crazy.

hence the verse in isaiah 45:7: "I Form light and Create darkness, I Make peace [all] and Create evil; I Am G!D, I Do all these things". what would you need a "devil" for?

Monotheism loves to play Good against Evil, Light against Dark, Man against Woman, when in fact there does not exist a pure opposite, as Hermetics would explain, there exists polar extremes of the Same Thing.

and we would say the same sort of thing - include us out of your "monotheism".

The Original Sin is Man's guilt of being carnivorous and lycanthropic.

i see what you mean - of course, one cannot live in the world outside the garden without struggle, pain and sacrifice. i wouldn't say it's guilt, but it is rather responsibility that we take on, but by the same token we ought to feel proud of our taking that responsibility like advanced beings. plus we also get rewards like pleasure and gratification that are not available in the garden (nobody mentions that usually, but ask yourself what "your desire shall be for your husband" actually means, although it contains its risk within it - "he shall [try and use it to] rule over you").

It is obvious that neither man nor woman could be 'ashamed' (Gen. ii. 25) or 'afraid because they were naked' (Gen. iii. 10 f.) before they had donned their animal's pelt or hunters' 'apron of leaves', and got so accustomed to wearing it that the uncovering of their defenseless bodies gave them a feeling of cold, fear and the humiliating impression of being again reduced to the primitive fruit-gatherer's state of a helpless 'unarmed animal' exposed to the assault of the better-equipped enemy.

with my (non-professional) social anthropologist hat on, i don't know if i find this argument convincing. do the inuit have a culture of underwear?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[radarmark]

For me, the best summary of what BB is talking about is Rosenzweig's: G!d needs us not only to participate in Revelation, but in Redemption as well. That is, it is oour concern for and implementation of just and living acts with others in the world (and the world itself). "Beyond morality" and living moment to moment does not really intersect with this. The point is that while "Revelation" may be considered as a larger category than, but including meditation, the "Redemption" (making a connexion to the world) is missing.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

 

[bananabrain]

very nicely put, radarmark (and rosenzweig).

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

in *parts* of judaism. advanced kabbalistic concepts like bittul ha-yesh are practiced only by a small, elite group of highly advanced students - who all, however, are expected to be married with children and a certain amount of experience in life

Although I am no expert in Kabbala, I am somewhat familiar with Lurianic Kabbala, but I am more aquainted with Hermetic Qabalah. Many of the rituals I perform involve the Qliphoth and the Averse Tree. My question from what you stated above; is Judaism intolerant of homosexuality?

that is why arguing with or rebellion against G!D in a principled way is a constant refrain from the Torah through to the classical sources.

I certainly am not here to prosletyze but, this separation from what is considered the Abrahamic G!D is exactly what those on the Left Hand Path seek.

Does not Judaism have the Averse Tree (opposite of the Tree of Life)? In that the original Tree of Life was created imperfect and thus collapsed?
In my LHP studies the original Tree of Life did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed, united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below).

Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation. Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man (Eastern Kundalini). Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to G!d.

The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled, leading away from the Tree of Life and further into the Tree of Knowledge.

we are not fully "human" until we make the choice to activate free will and begin our search for knowledge and the truth.

By Freedom of Will I am talking about not being under the Will of another, in this case G!D - it is the difference between "Thy Will Be Done" & "My Will Be Done"

animals cannot sin. humans cannot sin inside the garden.

Isn't that exactly what Adam & Eve did inside the Garden, Sin? But then again you have stated that Judaism does not have the Original Sin

the "hubris" is merely a misunderstanding of what the snake says to eve: you will become like G!D. well, yes, but there will be consequences for you, unlike for G!D.

I know of no such consequences involved in Apotheosis.

 

[bananabrain]

Many of the rituals I perform involve the Qliphoth and the Averse Tree.

can i ask from which sources you derive the frameworks that describe these? i'm familiar with the qelipothic format from the ma'aseh merqabah (described in r. kaplan's "innerspace") but the averse tree only as a theoretical construct.

My question from what you stated above; is Judaism intolerant of homosexuality?

i'd be very careful about answering that; it would depend on who you ask, why and for what purpose. if you understand the prohibition in leviticus as applying to homosexuality in toto (as many do), than yes. if you understand it as applying strictly to "punishment rape" (as per prisons or african civil wars) then no. most people (including jews) do not have a sophisticated understanding of this issue, but suffice it to say that there are a hell of a lot of gay jews and a number of orthodox gays, both out and not. what is, however, abundantly clear is that it is certainly forbidden by halakhah to put obstacles in the way of someone who is homosexual, whether actively or not, if they want to lead a jewish life. you are no less obliged halakhically by virtue of your sexual orientation. what judaism prizes is stable, monogamous relationships; furthermore, homosexuals are perfectly capable of having children. zoharically, it is hard to ignore the highly charged heterosexuality of the eroticism within the partzufic processes but, equally, despite the general prejudice within the ultra-orthodox world (where most of the true "mequbalim" are to be found) against homosexuality i cannot really see why this should be literally understood; after all, one's wife is not *actually* the Shekhinah, or vice-versa. similarly, the ariza"l himself favoured all-male ten-person mystical communion (no innuendo intended) and the existence of tiqqunim for homosexual activity indicates that it was not unknown even within that highly-adept group. i hope that doesn't sound too much like i'm hedging.

I certainly am not here to prosletyze but, this separation from what is considered the Abrahamic G!D is exactly what those on the Left Hand Path seek.

you perhaps misunderstand me - principled rebellion against or argument with G!D is not to be considered a "separation", any more than a child's individuation from a parent is. i would therefore be interested to know what you mean by separation and why, if it is to be understood differently.

Does not Judaism have the Averse Tree (opposite of the Tree of Life)?

yes, but i've rarely heard it discussed outside occultist / wmt / hermetic circles, most of which, with respect, don't exactly do kabbalah as i would understand it.

In that the original Tree of Life was created imperfect and thus collapsed?

to be precise; the "spherical" and "linear" *configurations* were not suited to dynamic equilibrium as the partzufic one is. however, it is not clear that this cosmic catastrophe, the "shevirat ha-qelim" in lurianic terms, is not built into the design in the same way that the "do not press this button" functionality could be expected to pan out. in other words, it's just a part of the process of "creating and destroying worlds" that we speak of.

In my LHP studies the original Tree of Life did not contain the material world, instead the non-Sephira Daath existed, united by paths with Kether (above), Chokmah, Binah, Geburah and Tiphareth (below). Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out God's idea of creation. Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man (Eastern Kundalini). Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to G!d.

i'd have to ask for the sources on that, but it sounds arguable in jewish terms, albeit we wouldn't do so quite like that, nor would we equate it with kundalini - kundalini starts from the base of the spine and goes up, whereas we are more likely to work with crown-down energy.

The adepts of the LHP glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled, leading away from the Tree of Life and further into the Tree of Knowledge.

you mean, like we do by living life in the real world down here in 'assiyah?

By Freedom of Will I am talking about not being under the Will of another, in this case G!D - it is the difference between "Thy Will Be Done" & "My Will Be Done"

we would say: "everything is in the power of 'heaven' except the awe of heaven". we chose at sinai as an act of will, to enter into the covenant of Torah and accept the yoke of the commandments; these days, that continues to be an act of one's own will, in that the will can hardly be compelled; "thy will be done" is not a jewish formula as far as i know.

Isn't that exactly what Adam & Eve did inside the Garden, Sin? But then again you have stated that Judaism does not have the Original Sin

in fact, in judaism, adam's "sin" was rather different; what adam and eve did was to *choose choice* - to choose, in effect, to become sentient, free-willed humans, with freedom to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. this was not possible in the edenic state.

I know of no such consequences involved in Apotheosis.

becoming "like G!D" is not "apotheosis". it is "doing as G!D Does", closer to (but not exactly like) imitatio Dei. G!D Wills and Chooses and Acts; so do humans; that's what makes us humans.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Etu Malku]

can i ask from which sources you derive the frameworks that describe these? . . . but the averse tree only as a theoretical construct.

I cull my knowledge from various sources, probably by not focusing on one is causing me to be confusing as I mix together various theories.

My inquiry into homosexuality and Judaism stemmed from the neccessity to be 'married with children' in order to study certain advanced Jewish Mysticism. Wouldn't this eliminate some people from these advanced studies?

you perhaps misunderstand me - principled rebellion against or argument with G!D is not to be considered a "separation", any more than a child's individuation from a parent is. i would therefore be interested to know what you mean by separation and why, if it is to be understood differently.

I guess there's no need for me to go into my Beliefs here, I'd rather ask questions and learn more about the depths of the Abrahamic religions. You are welcome to pop over to my thread on Luciferianism in the Magick (poor choice of forum for this subject, I know)

becoming "like G!D" is not "apotheosis". it is "doing as G!D Does", closer to (but not exactly like) imitatio Dei. G!D Wills and Chooses and Acts; so do humans; that's what makes us humans

. True, and Apotheosis is acheived by separation from the objective universe / G!D and Self-Deification.

 

[Lunitik]

i'm sorry, but bollocks. do you have a spouse? kids? do you have a job? do you pay taxes? do you drive? life is full of choices unless you are alone in an empty room (and even then...). choices are unavoidable - and when you make choices, you have moral agency by reason of your responsibility for those choices. when you make statements like this, you don't come across as "enlightened", but rather as arrogant, out of touch with reality and lacking empathy or insight into the experience of others, let alone familiarity with basic concepts in metaphysics. you have made a choice to come here and speak with us. why bother without a reason? frankly, i think you are in error.

The illusion of choice lets you believe you have some sort of control over your life. When you let go of this and simply go with the flow, there is no choice, you simply go into whatsoever has presented itself. Choice is a duality, in reality there is only one possible response...

You have certainly taken offense to my statement, but I would like you to give examples of what choices you think there are in the examples you have stated. I think you will find if you go into it that they are not choices at all...

then how do you interact with other humans? that is the question that judaism will ask. otherwise, this is metaphysical wafflage.

I do not see your point? You interact with them because that is what is currently happening around you... while this body remains alive, all is relative to it, actually though interactions are heightened because you are now more in tune with their mood, with their thoughts to some extent, and certainly their intentions.

I really don't see where you are going with this statement at all...

you're telling me. look - if you are talking about a basic and fundamental and, more to the point, famously recondite and misunderstood jewish text, you are in a dialogue on judaism whether you like it or not. i am sorry if that is inconvenient.

You would rather I be more blunt? In actuality I simply found your meanderings into the topic uninteresting and didn't want to go further into them. Whether this is the nature of the Jewish text or not is irrelevant, the details don't matter at all... the Tree of Knowledge brought to humans the duality of good and evil - this is what I am commenting on.

in *parts* of judaism. advanced kabbalistic concepts like bittul ha-yesh are practiced only by a small, elite group of highly advanced students - who all, however, are expected to be married with children and a certain amount of experience in life - this gives them contexts and something to return to (this is very different from buddhist or hindu renunciation); the roots in the earth which give you the ability to put branches in the sky.

I agree, you can only go to the same height that your roots have gone deep, otherwise the tree will simply fall at the slightest gust of wind.

I enjoy Kabbalah and Hasidic perspectives, but I am not interested in mainstream Judaism in the slightest - if you are knowledgeable in those areas, I would like to hear more from you on them!

i think the "religion" you are talking about is a straw man. religious discipline, like any discipline, including mystical, requires hard work and dedication; there is no reason to consider this incompatible with finding the "still small voice in the whirlwind". ask any advanced martial artist or musician.

I do not believe discipline is necessary for spiritual growth, although being a disciple certainly can. Most of the disciplines religions go on teaching and insisting are meaningful are simply irrelevant. Practicing disciplines create a habitual man, they do not create a religious man.

only in G!DSpace - in the universe that we inhabit, they are very definitely real considerations that we ignore at the cost of our humanity.

Time is a perception of mind, drop mind and you have no concept of time... if you want to call this GodSpace go ahead, but many humans have lived in that space. What ramifications are there for transcending notions of time? Time has created schedules, all desires, so much that is a hindrance to our lives. You say dropping it costs us humanity, I say time is already creating something which is not human - not natural.

The birds go on singing every morning, but they are not looking at their clocks to know when to start, they are simply rejoicing that all is fresh and new again.

gosh, for us it is a "fall" into humanity from an edenic/angelic/timeless/child/animal state. in a lot of ways, it's the opposite of a "fall".

We are not really in disagreement, humanity is unconscious as a whole, angels are conscious. For me, Adam was probably created enlightened, and the duality of good and evil has terminated his enlightenment and created the ego, now men the world over have tried to create a situation where we can return to that state.

I do not believe in angels as most Abrahamic people do, for the record, for me it is just a way of saying enlightened being. When we say something is angelic, we mean a simplistic beauty, that is enlightenment.

 

[Etu Malku]

I would like to comment on the idea of 'discipline' creating habit.
Whereas, I certainly agree that disciplined individual is not necessarily an enlightened one, I do see the merit in discipline.

Being somewhat of a disciplined musician I attest to the fundamental aspect that in order to progress beyond expectation it is necessary to implicate a discipline.

I would understand this principle to carry over into the spiritual realm as well.
[FONT=&quot]In order to gain more and more knowledge about the universe as well as about the hidden parts of one's self/shadow[/FONT], a disciplined existence is needed.

Though what I said has great bearing on my Path, does it not also have bearing on Abrahamic Paths or is everything left in the Hands of G!D?

 

[Lunitik]

I would like to comment on the idea of 'discipline' creating habit.
Whereas, I certainly agree that disciplined individual is not necessarily an enlightened one, I do see the merit in discipline.

Being somewhat of a disciplined musician I attest to the fundamental aspect that in order to progress beyond expectation it is necessary to implicate a discipline.

I would understand this principle to carry over into the spiritual realm as well.
[FONT=&quot]In order to gain more and more knowledge about the universe as well as about the hidden parts of one's self/shadow[/FONT], a disciplined existence is needed.

Though what I said has great bearing on my Path, does it not also have bearing on Abrahamic Paths or is everything left in the Hands of G!D?

The fundamental flaw in your logic is that spirituality is not a pursuit of mind, it is not something which can be practiced because it is already the case. In spirituality you must go on dropping all your knowledge and conclusions about life, everything you think you understand is wrong because you have not experienced anything of the spirit through it - as you realize this, simply let go of it and go deeper.

This is my problem with many "seekers", they go on pursuing with mind/ego when in reality the pursuit should be of heart/spirit - it is an entirely different space. When you conclude with mind, you are doing nothing but strengthening the ego, you are going further from your goal. When you accept through heart, now you are on the path. Gradually, intuition is strengthened, and that becomes your light. Mind cannot be trusting, it wants to control everything and will never let go of its hold if you pursue these things through it.

Right now, you will see things as a means and an end, you want that which seems to be doing the most for you because then you think you are getting closer to the end. It is an utterly flawed perspective. It can happen THIS VERY SECOND, there is no set of procedures you have to follow, you simply have to let go utterly, see that you are not in control of anything and trust existence to catch you.

 

[Etu Malku]

The fundamental flaw in your logic is that spirituality is not a pursuit of mind, it is not something which can be practiced because it is already the case. In spirituality you must go on dropping all your knowledge and conclusions about life, everything you think you understand is wrong because you have not experienced anything of the spirit through it - as you realize this, simply let go of it and go deeper.

This is my problem with many "seekers", they go on pursuing with mind/ego when in reality the pursuit should be of heart/spirit - it is an entirely different space. When you conclude with mind, you are doing nothing but strengthening the ego, you are going further from your goal. When you accept through heart, now you are on the path. Gradually, intuition is strengthened, and that becomes your light. Mind cannot be trusting, it wants to control everything and will never let go of its hold if you pursue these things through it.

Right now, you will see things as a means and an end, you want that which seems to be doing the most for you because then you think you are getting closer to the end. It is an utterly flawed perspective. It can happen THIS VERY SECOND, there is no set of procedures you have to follow, you simply have to let go utterly, see that you are not in control of anything and trust existence to catch you.

I ask these questions exactly for these answers, being an Abrahamic forum this kind of sparring is good. Though, keep in mind that I am not seeking to be converted

I think what I have read for the most here recently is of great value, I can't say I agree with all of it of course.

 

[Lunitik]

I ask these questions exactly for these answers, being an Abrahamic forum this kind of sparring is good. Though, keep in mind that I am not seeking to be converted

I think what I have read for the most here recently is of great value, I can't say I agree with all of it of course.

Don't worry, I am not trying to convert - mostly because there is nothing to convert you to

The many religions in the world are inventions of man, true religion cannot be divided because existence is always the same. Our choices in this space are down to accidents more than anything else, either your family has practiced it or the society you live in has created a particular avenue you either go with or rebel against. It is all ego that separates, it is all nonsense because truth is one. Wars are fought because we say the other is plainly wrong, it is not the case because whatsoever they find useful in their faith you can also learn from. Ultimately, all learning is useless though, it has to be dropped eventually.

I do not believe religion should be consolidated, which is what many interpret my words to mean, I actually believe there should be as many religions as there are people - we should simply drop the barriers between the faiths so that each person has more material to learn from, then they can have a more complete understanding. Choosing one particular faith, choosing who's perspectives in the realm of religious material is most correct, it is nothing but an act of ego, and that is against religion. Learning is useful, there is something to gain from every religious teaching, but emulating and aligning yourself to a particular vision is not an authenticity - that is only possible when you make the material your own, when you have dropped all but that which is useful for you. This is when true religion starts, when you stop pursuing with mind and engage with it directly.

 

[Lunitik]

At first, it will be confusing, you will not know what you are supposed to be picking up and what is to be put down. If you set about trying to justify your current ideas, you will find that justification and the material will not be useful at all. Eventually, though, you will start seeing patterns if your search is wide enough - you will see everyone is talking about the same thing. Now that you have found this, you can start to drop things, not it is not about ego because you have discovered truth. It is not useful to study truth when you have found it, now you simply dive into that - no text is going to make it more true.

A problem arises if you imprison your pursuit to a particular faith though, now it all seems valid because there is only one perspective. You are a slave to that tradition, you will never discover a freedom. It is humorous, because it is yourself that has created this prison, in your choices you have discarded the other side and not grown through what that might have offered.

All of my words are towards ridding people of this choosing, it is all about seeing every stream leads to the same ocean. If you drink from every stream, you will see they all taste the same, you will see that it simply doesn't matter which you choose. It was your own delusion which decided this stream is the best, that this is the most direct current towards that ocean... you will realize that if every stream goes to the ocean, it is simply stupid to discuss the streams - simply go to the ocean and enjoy its tranquility, every stream is busy, noisy by comparison. The streams go on being violent with the banks, cutting into the land to find a better way towards the ocean - in the ocean, the goal is realized so there is nothing more to do.

 

[Etu Malku]

Honestly I didn't read through your whole reply before this comment, I will though.
I refrain from speaking my mind here because it is an Abrahamic forum and my past experiences with this forum format dictates that you remain within the forum's paradigm.

That said, I assure you that I am not a believer in make-believe entities. I agree with Jung in that all gods, devils, angels, demons, djinn, gregori, etc. are ancient archetypal images buried deep within our unconsciousness, brought to our consciousness through symbolism.

I'm not buying this G!D thing, and I cannot see any of the Abrahamic Beliefs anything more than propaganda and plagiarized myths of the past.

That is not to say I do not have Faith, but my Faith is towards My Higher Self, my Inner Self, what would make me truly Individuated and perfect (which I am not, LOL)

 

[Lunitik]

Honestly I didn't read through your whole reply before this comment, I will though.
I refrain from speaking my mind here because it is an Abrahamic forum and my past experiences with this forum format dictates that you remain within the forum's paradigm.

That said, I assure you that I am not a believer in make-believe entities. I agree with Jung in that all gods, devils, angels, demons, djinn, gregori, etc. are ancient archetypal images buried deep within our unconsciousness, brought to our consciousness through symbolism.

I'm not buying this G!D thing, and I cannot see any of the Abrahamic Beliefs anything more than propaganda and plagiarized myths of the past.

That is not to say I do not have Faith, but my Faith is towards My Higher Self, my Inner Self, what would make me truly Individuated and perfect (which I am not, LOL)

It is a shame you remain confined by your own projections, there is nothing wrong with another disagreeing - this is the only way a discussion can ever happen, if you are in agreement there is no need to say anything.

What the religions depict as God is certainly a fabrication, it is a personification of something transcending form. I am not interested in this, yet I go on using the word "God" because within it there are many important communications. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient - omni-omni I like to say - this is something very powerful to wrap your head around. By saying God is in heaven and not part of existence is to limit that, yet to point at something in existence and say it is God also limits. God is the whole, indivisible. This is something directly experiential, you can know its truth through certain devices.

It seems to me that your current religiousness is a direct result of rebellion - often worshipers of Lucifer are attempting to get a certain response out of people. I am sure there is much which is valuable, but no more or less than what is contained in the texts of the Abrahamic faiths, no more or less than can be found in the texts of the Eastern religions - true religion must always eventually find its way to the ocean, there is no where else it can go. If you can combine all these streams, now there is a greater possibility of transcendence.

 

[Lunitik]

If you step forward - there is an ascending.
In response, existence will step forward - there is a descending.
When they meet, there is an explosion, ego is annihilated.
The result is transcendence.

Seeking through ego, you will wander left and right horizontally, but this will accomplish nothing. To find the ultimate, you must travel vertically. Every conclusion you currently have decided on, it is naught but an egoistic assertion - and it is the same for all people who define themselves under the umbrella of a particular faith. Come out from under the umbrella, get a little wet, then only can the unattainable be attained.

God is existence itself, whatsoever theories or names you attach to it existence is still as it always was. It does not care what you desire for it to be, it was before you and will be after you, simply fall in line with it and rejoice in the present it is providing you: life, now.

 

[Etu Malku]

It is a shame you remain confined by your own projections,

I'm afraid it is you who is confined by your projections, not I, how could you possibly say that when everything you believe in is based on non-empirical evidence, mythology, and story?

God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient - omni-omni I like to say - this is something very powerful to wrap your head around.

How do you know this to be true? This is indoctrination at its zenith of control. You are not in control of your True Self anymore than the zealot religious antagonist. Your Will is still the Will of another, not yours.

It seems to me that your current religiousness is a direct result of rebellion - often worshipers of Lucifer are attempting to get a certain response out of people.

You've admitted to knowing little about Luciferianism, yet now you will explain to a Luciferian about Luciferianism . . . LOL.

Luciferians do not worship anything except their Higher-Self, my current religiousness is actually antitheistic, I am quite against this delusion of religion and its detriment to Mankind. But, I would not come to an Abrahamic forum to push this, I come to discuss and learn comparatively (of course until persuaded to do so).

 

[Lunitik]

I'm afraid it is you who is confined by your projections, not I, how could you possibly say that when everything you believe in is based on non-empirical evidence, mythology, and story?

You are mistaken, what I speak of is very much empirical.

How do you know this to be true? This is indoctrination at its zenith of control. You are not in control of your True Self anymore than the zealot religious antagonist. Your Will is still the Will of another, not yours.

I have experienced it, that is how I know it to be true.

You've admitted to knowing little about Luciferianism, yet now you will explain to a Luciferian about Luciferianism . . . LOL.

I am not attempting to explain Luciferianism to you at all, I am simply suggesting you come out from under this umbrella. Do you see what it has done though? You are deeply offended in this reply, for what? It is because you are identified with this group. You have thought I am somehow coming close to attacking your faith and so you have defended yourself.

I am not saying drop what has been learned, I am saying go deeper and drop your barriers. I am not saying anything is wrong in your current pursuit, I am simply suggesting that there are many sources that are useful and you should delve into them all.

Luciferians do not worship anything except their Higher-Self, my current religiousness is actually antitheistic, I am quite against this delusion of religion and its detriment to Mankind. But, I would not come to an Abrahamic forum to push this, I come to discuss and learn comparatively (of course until persuaded to do so).

Self is ego, Buddha says self is an illusion - it does not matter how high the self gets, it is still fundamentally ego and thus limited. There is something unlimited, ultimate, this is where I have attempted to point you to...

I apologize, I did not see how engulfed in ego you are. It is perfectly good, go deeper into that, but one day you will realize it has gotten you nowhere - that it is fueled by this anger towards other faiths. I am not of the Abrahamic Faiths, I am not of the Eastern Faiths, I am for the whole - that which every scripture is pointing to. When you have dropped this attitude of being anti things you will be much more at ease and happy. Until then, the anger I see in your post here will simply continue to envelope you.

By empowering your "no", you are going lower not higher... the only way to go higher is to establish an unquestioning "yes". That trust can allow you to go higher, nothing else. If the one trusted is Lucifer, so be it, what is necessary is let-go. You are causing stress and suffering by being antagonistic, what is called for is a deep relaxation.

This is what hell and heaven point to... the lower you go, the more into no, you will be in the fires. The higher you go, the more into yes, there will be ecstasy. This is something you can engage with this very moment, it is not something which comes after death. Stop creating a hell for yourself and move into your heaven.

 

[seattlegal]

If you step forward - there is an ascending.
In response, existence will step forward - there is a descending.
When they meet, there is an explosion, ego is annihilated.
The result is transcendence.

Seeking through ego, you will wander left and right horizontally, but this will accomplish nothing. To find the ultimate, you must travel vertically. Every conclusion you currently have decided on, it is naught but an egoistic assertion - and it is the same for all people who define themselves under the umbrella of a particular faith. Come out from under the umbrella, get a little wet, then only can the unattainable be attained.

God is existence itself, whatsoever theories or names you attach to it existence is still as it always was. It does not care what you desire for it to be, it was before you and will be after you, simply fall in line with it and rejoice in the present it is providing you: life, now.

You might be interested in the Yogacara teachings on the Seventh Consciousness

Contents Verses Delineating the Eight Consciousnesses

 

[Lunitik]

You might be interested in the Yogacara teachings on the Seventh Consciousness

Contents Verses Delineating the Eight Consciousnesses

What I have discussed is the transaction into the 5th.

I am quite familiar with the various levels though, but thank you for the link all the same

EDIT: actually, here it would be the transaction into the 6th, usually there are only 7 levels (usually called bodies) - this seems most correct to me since there is a natural attraction to this number, similarly the numbers 3 (trinity, trimurti, trikaya) and 1 (god, oneness), these come up a lot in mystical writings across the board too.

 

[seattlegal]

What I have discussed is the transaction into the 5th.

I am quite familiar with the various levels though, but thank you for the link all the same

EDIT: actually, here it would be the transaction into the 6th, usually there are only 7 levels (usually called bodies)

lol, 5th-6th ground, or 5th-6th consciousness? Bodies are also different in Yogacara.

Are you sure you are familiar with the Yogacara system?