The man who destroyed Holy Sepulchre

Amica

Amica

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I have heard many Christian friends explaining that the motive behind the Crusades was the destruction of Holy Sepulchre, by "muslims." Did some research and found that the caliph in question was Al-Hakim, known as Mad Caliph in islamic history. He either married a Christian or his mother was a Christian (conflicting reports). This evil man is originator of Druze religion whose adherents to this day consider him divine. As everyone knows, human worship in Islam is forbidden. As a result, the caliph not only persecuted Jews and Christians, but also Muslims who refused to worship him.

Therefore, a Muslim did not destroy Holy Sepulchre, but an apostate Muslim, blasphemer and a mad-man, a magalomaniac.
 
Hi--
I have never met a Druze, so I cannot generalize. The only thing I can generalize for them would be worshiping such a man as god. He murdered, opressed, destroyed, etc., yet the Druze obviously do not care.
 
It becomes very convenient to point out people as heretics and apostates when we don't like them - the bottom line is that as the Caliph he acted with the full authority of Islam.

Of course, we know it was possibly just someone being a bit mad - but in the eyes of the Europeans of the time, it was a Muslim issue.
 
I,Brian--

Well, the caliph may have ruled an islamic kingdom, and in his and his supporters' views, he may have represented Islam--but history shows differently.

1) He came from a subsect of Shia Muslims, the Ismailis. The Ismaililis DO NOT and HAVE NEVER represented the majority of Muslims. The majority of Muslims have always been the Sunnis. And Sunnis did not support this caliph.
2) The Mad Caliph started a new religion, the Druze, who believed him to be god incarnate. What do you call a person who starts a new religion but an apostate?
3) He did not act in "full authority of Islam" because Islam forbids: human worship and persecution of people who are not attacking you. Does not matter what anyone says, but according to the Holy Qur'an no Muslim is justified, EVER, to attack anyone who is not attacking them.
4) Another reason why the mad caliph did not attack "under the full authority of Islam" is because Jews and Christians are to be respected and left alone. They are allowed to worship how they please in a true islamic state (see the Qur'an). And no, the Qur'an may call some of the Jews and Christians (NOT ALL!, it says so itself) that they are not believers, it still forbids forcing them to believe as you.
 
Amica, you point is excellent. Earlier when I alluded to the Druze, it was to express that I finally get some understanding of their "clannishness" and (as some have seen it) quite xenophobic behaviour. Reading this thread I did a little (admittedly, very little) research and came more-or-less to the same conclusion.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
Thanks, Radarmark.

I must say, however, that I,Brian makes a good point that in regards to European Christendom the mad caliph was an islamic issue. I give the Christendom a "reason" due to the fact that in the old days the information was not so available as it is today. But, even if the Christian Authority, the Pope, at the time may not have known about various political crisis within Muslims in the Muslim Kingdom, he could have had spies.

Either way, the mad caliph (the Druze, as declared upon the proclamation of the Druze religion) could have been used as a good excuse to attack the Muslim Kingdom in general. Because, after all, average European Christian had no clue what Islam trully was, whether a caliph is just or not, etc. All they heard was there were some infidels occupying the Holy Land and that Christians are persecuted under the caliph's authority.
 
Namaste Amica and thank you in advance for your answers.
Amica said:
Another reason why the mad caliph did not attack "under the full authority of Islam" is because Jews and Christians are to be respected and left alone. They are allowed to worship how they please in a true islamic state (see the Qur'an).
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Can your provide the scripture for this? And how many countries are currently violating this? Surely Saudi and Iran? Others?
Amica said:
And no, the Qur'an may call some of the Jews and Christians (NOT ALL!, it says so itself) that they are not believers,
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again, the scripture and interpretation please?
Amica said:
it still forbids forcing them to believe as you.
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and yet again.
 
Hi Wil,

I sure will provide the scriptural references ASAP. At the moment, I am at work and unable to stay long online, but as soon as I get off work today I will provide scriptural references.

I have to say that, yes, unfortunately, some Muslims are not perfect Muslims. Especially some of those who hold the political power. Non-Muslims do not have--regretably--the freedom of worship as they should under Islam. But, these same political rulers have abused their power, under the pretense that it is "all Islam" to opress Muslims as well. One example are the sisters, Muslim women.

Peace. I'll come back soon. :)
 
I met a Druze in Israel, back in the 70's. He was enormously patriotic about Israel, and proud of the scar on his leg from paratrooping into the Sinai during the Six-Day War; I would not have expected that.
 
My understanding was that there was not much research done on where most of the ancient christian sites were including Jesus's Tomb. That on a trip from Rome to visit the holy land noticed there weren't any historic sites....so they just by decree created them....this is that and this is this....and had shrines erected so when folks came to visit there would be something to see....as it was at the time....there was nothing.....
 
What the mad calip did was to pull down the original church of the holy sepulchre, what Constantine's mother (Helena?) had identified as the Tomb of the Christ, "miraculously found". Probably wasn't the right place, just like the nails in palm thing is wrong... but Eurpoe sure thought (1) that it was the Holy Site in the Holy Land (lots of descriptions as such up until 1008, when Hakim tore it down) and (2) a Muslim did it (references from that Pope, Sergius IV? to today's Christian web-sites).

Looking at the Shia-Ishmalli-Fatimad-Druze connection Amica points out, by Sunni (vast majority of Muslim) standards saying he was a Muslim is like saying Jacob Frank was a Jew by Hassidic standards. Kind-sorta not the case.
 
Salaam/peace-

I am back with the information to Wil requested earlier, and I am sure others are curious about. So, here we go.

Before I provide most of references, I think it is important to note one important Qur'anic verse from Chapter called "Repetenance", verse 97: "The desert Arabs are the worst in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more fitted to be ignorant of the limits which Allah has sent down to His Messanger. But Allah is Knowing, Wise."

Concerning the abuse of authority by the many Arab rulers and leaders in the name of Islam towards the non-Muslims, as well as Muslims, who live in the Arabian Peninsula, I believe the above Qur'anic verse is very telling, and possibly very likely to be future-telling in nature.

The Holy Qur'an, the written authority on Islam (regardless of some Muslims might thell you!) states this:

1) It is Allah's SWT Will to have diversity among the people, including the peoples' choices about whether to believe or not, and what to believe: Holy Qur'an Chapters 11 (verse 18), 10 (verse 99), 18 (verse 29).

2) Freedom of religion is guaranteed in Holy Qur'an, Chapters 2 (verse 256), 10 (verse 99), 18 (verse 29).

3) Justice is important for a true Muslim believer and treating non-Muslim well is considered just in the Noble Qur'an as stated in Chapters 5
(verse 8), 60 (verse 8), 9 (verse 6), 60 (verses 8-9).

9) Not all Christians and Jews are bad people. Allah SWT continually mentions in the Noble Qur'an that not all Muslims are good people, at least not all of those who declare themselves Muslims. Allah SWT says that the Muslim Community was plagued by hypocretes (spelling?) and calls them double-faced, and says that they are not true believers. But, of course, there are true believers among the Muslims, but also among the Jews and Christians, the People of the Book, as noted in Holy Qur'an Chapters 5 (verses 5 and 82) and Chapter 3 (verses 113-115).

10) An armed fight is prescribed for Muslims in self-defense, but Muslims are not justified to attack anyone if they are not being attacked first as commanded in Holy Qur'an Chapter 2 (verse 190) and chapter 60 (verse 8).

11) Muslims are told in the Holy Qur'an that Allah SWT is much mentioned in synagogues, churches and mosques as seen in this verse "...if Allah had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where Allah's Name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. Allah will certainly help those who help Him--Allah is All-Strong, Almighty." (Qur'an, chapter 22, verse 40). Any true Muslim will never attack or destroy a church, monastery or synagogue for Allah SWT tells us that People of the Book (Jews and Christians) praise Him much in those worship places.

12) Please note that the title "People of the Book," referrs to the Followers of the Holy Bible. Muslims are told in the Holy Qur'an that the Holy Bible is earlier Revelation of Allah SWT, and that Jews and Christians are to not be forced to follow other but the Bible, and that if they live in an islamic state that they be judged by the Revelation they follow (Qur'an Chapter 5, verses 43-49). The Law instructed to Moses is the Law that Jews and Christians are to follow, and Muslims are to respect that.

All of the above you can find at the link below. You can search for the verses right away without having to have to read the whole chapters first.

Peace.


OQP
 
wil said:
My understanding was that there was not much research done on where most of the ancient christian sites were including Jesus's Tomb. That on a trip from Rome to visit the holy land noticed there weren't any historic sites....so they just by decree created them....this is that and this is this....and had shrines erected so when folks came to visit there would be something to see....as it was at the time....there was nothing.....
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you love to undermine christianity ?

i visited the Holy Sepulchre years ago, got lost and ended up visiting the place and even as a none christian at the time I can say that it was really intense, there is a real energy and holiness to the place !
 
Thanx Amica, much obliged.

NiceCupOfTea said:
you love to undermine christianity ?
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Namaste NCOT, no I love to undermine falsehoods and let them fall away. I like my beliefs upon a rock, not upon sand.

When Helena waltzed thru and announced this is this here is budget build a temple and this is that...here is more scheckles...the created disneyland....not reality.

I say get rid of the garbage, go for the truth.
 
wil said:
Thanx Amica, much obliged.

Namaste NCOT, no I love to undermine falsehoods and let them fall away. I like my beliefs upon a rock, not upon sand.

When Helena waltzed thru and announced this is this here is budget build a temple and this is that...here is more scheckles...the created disneyland....not reality.

I say get rid of the garbage, go for the truth.
Click to expand...


removed thought better of it
 
wil said:
Thanx Amica, much obliged.

Namaste NCOT, no I love to undermine falsehoods and let them fall away. I like my beliefs upon a rock, not upon sand.

When Helena waltzed thru and announced this is this here is budget build a temple and this is that...here is more scheckles...the created disneyland....not reality.

I say get rid of the garbage, go for the truth.
Click to expand...


i'm all for getting rid of the crap much as i love it.

but how do you know the the Holy Sepulchre is false ?
 
Try NPNF2-02. Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories | Christian Classics Ethereal Library try the beginning of Book I of Socrates or Book II of Sozomen. These are myths, Chapters 25-30 or so of "Life of Constantine", Book III by Eusibeus is probably the most historic version. Just comparing the three will show you no one knew what was going on, the all contradict each other.

It would be really unique for an ancient Jewish cemetary (even a family plot) to have been built so close to a trash dump that a single structure could enclose both the dump (Golgotha) and the plot (Sepulchre).
 
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