juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Excellent response.
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh = God?
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BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
HAHAHA ok I see who you are now. You are the lump together all those that aren't your personal view as conjecture. For instance, the LITERAL meaning of the Quran has been used alongside the non-literal for 1400 years. If it doesn't make sense LITERALLY it doesn't make sense. For instance, Assuming one could read classical Arabic, If they had never heard of Islam and picked up the book (or heard the full narration) they would probably come to many of the BASIC understanding we have today. Can I prove this beyond doubt, no. But I can say there are schools of people just studying single Surah's language letter by letter, word by word to ensure there isn't a lost meaning.
Now where is the conjecture and twisted explanation by someone who wants to see it that way in the Quran? Please 1 example is sufficient. Keep in mind it is a book, not a lot of books (such as the Bible and Vedas) and the "conjecture" can be explained in other parts of the book. It all goes together.
Now since you are obviously one of those people who denies everyone else's view as unique or worthy of mention, can I ask, Have you read the Quran, How about the Vedas (All of them?) and honestly I don't know what Suttas are unless it is Sutras misspelled (I could google, but I'm sure you know...)?
Really? Just one? I'll give you a few... ISIS, Al Queda, Boko Haram, Salafists, Wahabists.... Unless I am wrong you don't believe in their Quranic interpretations.... And if you have the power, the ability to prove me wrong on this and can explain to them how murdering innocents and their suicide bombing actions are not Quranic and can get them to stop.... the UN would pay you billions.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Let's not stop there, since we're at it.
Why are persons murdered *by the state* for converting *from* Islam in Sharia countries? This isn't an extremist sect, this is the judges and the Imams, inciting the people to murder converts and those who help them convert...public beheading. Show me any minority, non-Muslim sect that isn't harassed in a Sharia nation....just one.
Show me the Jewish Cultural Centers in Saudi, or Iran, or *any* Sharia country? Just one will do. Nations where Christianity reigns have thrown open their doors and take in exiles fleeing war and oppression, and extremists still want us dead. We send money and food aide, not to mention defensive arms, and still Muslims bite the hand that feeds. Where is this religion of love? SHOW ME.
This isn't the Islam board, it is the Christianity board...
Why are persons murdered *by the state* for converting *from* Islam in Sharia countries? This isn't an extremist sect, this is the judges and the Imams, inciting the people to murder converts and those who help them convert...public beheading. Show me any minority, non-Muslim sect that isn't harassed in a Sharia nation....just one.
Show me the Jewish Cultural Centers in Saudi, or Iran, or *any* Sharia country? Just one will do. Nations where Christianity reigns have thrown open their doors and take in exiles fleeing war and oppression, and extremists still want us dead. We send money and food aide, not to mention defensive arms, and still Muslims bite the hand that feeds. Where is this religion of love? SHOW ME.
This isn't the Islam board, it is the Christianity board...
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
I suppose either I didn't explain my question thorough enough or you didn't read it correctly. I am asking a Quranic question. I can clearly say why what they are doing is wrong based on the QURAN. And that is where what you are saying and what I have asked are far different. You want me to tell you what they are doing is fundamental Islam, or Quranically correct? No, I've clearly stated hundreds of times that what they are doing is wrong according to Quran. Those groups do not follow Islam as it was prescribed in Quran. They follow what some men say is the Quran while neglecting large parts of it. Using Hadith that most scholars consider weak to abrogate entire Surahs. If you would like to go further, feel free to ask specific questions as the groups you mentioned aren't using the Quran. Therefor their actions in no way reflect an "interpretation" of the Quran as a whole. As stated before unlike the Bible, the Quran is 1 book, meant to be taken all together, not piece-milled and abrogated by other sources. It can be clarified with Hadith but the Quran stands alone.
OK since you ask the question I will give you an answer. Why are people being killed "by the state" in (what I assume you mean countries whose laws are derived from a certain school's Shariah Law) for Apostasy. Fair enough, since this is a reflection on what I typed earlier, I must assume you want me to spout off a Aya saying why it is ok to kill Apostates, and I can't... maybe I'm missing it, or it is again from Hadith. The closest thing in the Quran that speaks of Apostasy refers to Allah's wrath on those who commit it. ... Wait, I know this idea came from somewhere, except with killing demanded, oh wait that's right it wasn't the Quran, it was Deuteronomy 13 (which to pull it back into Christianity, If Jesus is and was God, prescribed himself). Seems the Jews either forgot this law or decided not to follow it once Christians started "leaving Judaism" to start their religion.
To be fair yes, there are Hadith that state Apostates should be killed, and it is pretty much line by line Deuteronomy 13. But there are also many Hadith that show Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) did not seek to kill Apostates nor try them, and in his mercy of the law (resembling the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) in that the punishment can be released if it leads to peace and as such is a better option if the person is not to continue).
On to the other topics, there are many Jewish communities in many Islamic based countries (as "Shariah countries" doesn't make any sense leading me to think you don't know what Shariah is) Turkey and Jordan have always had large Jewish and Christian communities (although they did decline much in numbers since Israel was formed), Before ISIS Syria and Iraq had large Christian and Jewish areas. Here is the Christian population in Egypt as reported by Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Egypt ... As for Saudi Arabia and Iran. Is that the standard for Islam? One of Allah's commandments is to not separate from the Ummah any groups, yet ask a Iranian his faith, It is likely Shiah. In Saudi, it is Salafi or Wahabi. But beyond that, a vast majority of Muslims do not hold Saudi government or its practices as Islamic true. Another example is the fact Saudi princes and King have many more than 4 wives (the maximum allowed, can you tell me what the max is stated in the Bible?) .
So on to this country where Christianity reigns... where is that? I'm going to assume you mean where most people claim to be Christian as I have yet to see a country (heck, even a town) who 100% followed the teachings of Jesus (PBUH). We can argue that some other time, but I see those same countries closing their doors to many others as well (and I'm not even claiming just closing doors to Muslims).
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Jizyah is harassment.
There are no "Christian" nations, we have this thing called "separation of church and state." Even so, in nations where Christianity is the dominant faith, Muslims are free to worship, as are all other faiths...something REMARKABLY absent in Sharia nations (Egypt and Turkey are not Sharia nations, thank G!d!).
In nations that are predominantly Christian, people are not marched into the street and executed summarily for converting from Christianity.
What goes on in Saudi clearly impacts the whole of Islamic society...Mecca, Medina, Kaaba, etc. No doubt the only reason the governmentally and religiously sanctioned harassment isn't a higher priority in the minds of the west is oil. Without oil, the linchpin of Islam is a prejudicial monster of its own creation. And that clearly impacts all other Sharia nations.
Words of how "these don't *really* follow Islam" aren't borne out by the facts on the ground. Where Islam is not the prevailing religion, all is nice and people play fair...mostly. Where Islam *is* the prevailing religion, *nobody* else is allowed to play without harassment, up to and including summary execution. Again, show me the Jewish Cultural Centers in Saudi. Where are they?
There are no "Christian" nations, we have this thing called "separation of church and state." Even so, in nations where Christianity is the dominant faith, Muslims are free to worship, as are all other faiths...something REMARKABLY absent in Sharia nations (Egypt and Turkey are not Sharia nations, thank G!d!).
In nations that are predominantly Christian, people are not marched into the street and executed summarily for converting from Christianity.
What goes on in Saudi clearly impacts the whole of Islamic society...Mecca, Medina, Kaaba, etc. No doubt the only reason the governmentally and religiously sanctioned harassment isn't a higher priority in the minds of the west is oil. Without oil, the linchpin of Islam is a prejudicial monster of its own creation. And that clearly impacts all other Sharia nations.
Words of how "these don't *really* follow Islam" aren't borne out by the facts on the ground. Where Islam is not the prevailing religion, all is nice and people play fair...mostly. Where Islam *is* the prevailing religion, *nobody* else is allowed to play without harassment, up to and including summary execution. Again, show me the Jewish Cultural Centers in Saudi. Where are they?
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BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
"Jizyah is harassment" - only a claim by the uneducated. Feel free to seek out my Thread in Islam section "What's wrong with Islam" and feel free to post any objections to Islam you seem to have. This thread isn't for that, whereas I created the other for just such purpose.
Also, not for nothing, Egypt is 96% Islamic affiliated, while Turkey is 99%. How is it you don't think Islamic principals aren't influencing laws and society.
But it seems you think that to resolve my faith as one of peace, I must somehow make Iran and Saudi Arabia's actions change to what you think is correct (or for that matter what I think is correct). I cannot, nor probably will ever be such an Influential voice that the Saudi King gives up his sins, and changes to a more Islamically true state. Same would be for Iran. Geographically speaking there are important places in Saudi, but that should not in any way reflect the actions by Saudi being Islamically sound. I've had this argument enough times to already know your circular argument, so I will just stop it here with, Saudi Arabia and Iran Combined do not even have a significant enough population to judge the rest of the Muslims on. 6.2% by Wikipedia's claim.
Not all countries are bound by separation of Church and state. Many African countries as well as South American countries are Officially Christian (Pretty sure my statement that they do not adhere to Jesus' teachings in full is not debatable). Many of these countries "allow" refugees entry. However your claim that these people are free, is another story all together. Denmark, Iceland, Finland, and Norway require all children to attend public schools. While the grades of education tend to be high, they also teach religious doctrine of their "Official Church" and disallow teaching of other faiths in those schools. While most of these to hold "Separation of Church and State" the Church is a large influence on governmental policies. Sweden only recently broke its main churches affiliation in 2000. Before that all children/born citizens were registered as members of the church. Tensions continue to climb in these "religiously free" society because of the second rate citizen social status the second largest religious group maintains (and yes in nearly all these countries that religion is Islam).
Also, not for nothing, Egypt is 96% Islamic affiliated, while Turkey is 99%. How is it you don't think Islamic principals aren't influencing laws and society.
But it seems you think that to resolve my faith as one of peace, I must somehow make Iran and Saudi Arabia's actions change to what you think is correct (or for that matter what I think is correct). I cannot, nor probably will ever be such an Influential voice that the Saudi King gives up his sins, and changes to a more Islamically true state. Same would be for Iran. Geographically speaking there are important places in Saudi, but that should not in any way reflect the actions by Saudi being Islamically sound. I've had this argument enough times to already know your circular argument, so I will just stop it here with, Saudi Arabia and Iran Combined do not even have a significant enough population to judge the rest of the Muslims on. 6.2% by Wikipedia's claim.
I'm guessing this is not meant to cover all Christian countries, or you are ignorant that Christianity also lies outside of US and Europe (and even in those areas, you do not have to go back too far to find it). Also, If Christians followed all of the laws in the Bible as they claim, I've already answered this. Again I can state many more instances where the Quran advocates mercy rather than extreme punishment.
Again, What Shariah nations... the term doesn't make sense. And I have already shown 1 as you requested in Muslim Countries (2 actually). You want one in Saudi, cry to the Saudi King. I don't have the money to pay off his greed, nor the influence to make them tighten down on a school of thought that is more Quranically correct. IF that is what you judge on, you are judging 1.6 Billion people on the actions of 1.6% of us. That isn't Christian either (Judge not... ring a bell?). How about the Christians in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and even Palestine? Jewish centers are in most of these as well, some also have Hindu communities, etc. Stop referencing FOX News for all your information and do some research. Read the Quran to find the mistakes/problems you have with it.
Joe...I believe it was you that asked for one example...
A Cup Of Tea
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The school curriculum still states that the values taught are baste on Christianity.
Tensions continue to climb in these "religiously free" society because of the second rate citizen social status the second largest religious group maintains (and yes in nearly all these countries that religion is Islam). [/QUOTE]
This I don't know if it's true, 'climbing' sounds very ominous. Those groups have more direct issues in our societies to worry about with the far right marching on as it does. If anything the mainstream is taking a harder stance in their defence right now.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Hardly...it is a tax for being non-Muslim...that is harassment. It typically gets much worse.
Are these people charged a tax for being non-Christian? Are they not allowed to go to school, buy food, get a job, etc., etc., etc.?
Egyptian and Turkish governments are secular. The predominant religion is Islam, but Islam does not *run* the government. Egypt had a close call recently, and while I don't approve of the way it was handled, Moresi's attempt to turn Egypt into a Sharia state is something I don't approve of either...and we can see the repurcussions that landed on the Copts because of it.
I really don't care. I mean that in the most respectful manner, what you choose to believe is up to you. How you resolve whatever is up to you.
Yet Muslims don't, as a rule, practice extreme mercy unless they are obligated to.
Shown me what? A Jewish Cultural Center? I have yet to see it. No Christian Cultural centers either, outside of Egypt and scattered spots surrounding Israel. Yet it seems only right and decent (being sarcastic here) to build an Islamic Cultural Center within sight of the World Trade Center. Islam demands others accomodate it, while refusing to accomodate others.
Oh, and I'm sure you know FOX news is owned by the Saudis.
Started to read an English translation years ago, only to be told "you can't read the Quran in English, you *must* read it in the original Arabic!" And then to learn there are what? 2 or 3 primary original Arabic versions that scholars argue over. So, which one do you wish me to read? And what are you going to read in exchange?
After that little fiasco, I thought it better to step back and take a good, hard look around and see the end result of the Quranic teachings. I'm not impressed by the intolerance, the mysogyny, the hatred and the double standards done in the name of Islam...routinely, not just by extremist sects.
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BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
This I don't know if it's true, 'climbing' sounds very ominous. Those groups have more direct issues in our societies to worry about with the far right marching on as it does. If anything the mainstream is taking a harder stance in their defence right now.[/QUOTE]
maybe, but I still see the MS pushing against Islam as a whole every day. If someone is taking a defensive stance with us, it isn't the majority of MSM.
A Cup Of Tea
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There are many countries in the world and it looks a little difference everywhere. I'm thoroughly convinced I have a better view of my backyard then you.
BigJoeNobody
Professional Argument Attractor
Do you live in the US or another country that is taxed? Me too, and guess what, I HAVE TO pay taxes. Muslims are required by our religious law (Shariah) to pay Zakat (our tax). If there was no Jizyah, Christians and Jews and other non-Muslim people would be staying "rent-free" and with no requirement to defend the state against invaders. They would literally just be taking advantage of the no tax and no responsibility to the state. This really is a simple topic that is commonly misconstrued as harassment by those paying taxes to other entities where the money tends to go to leaders' pockets more than the people that need it. BTW since we are on the subject and not in the thread I requested you take this issue to, Do you also have a problem with Prophet Mouhammed (PBUH) teachings that the people of the book be given options of autonomy or integrated into the society given they don't attempt to sway people away from Islam. I guess that takes away from that free speech that wasn't prescribed in the Bible as well.
again these things aren't from Islam. but please keep being judgmental with no basis.
Islam is a religion. It cannot run anything. Its laws however can be instituted by a government of which even secular governments can be sided toward. (again... a state run on Shariah... this would be possible while a Shariah state makes no sense)... but sure enough again you attempt to judge Islam by the governments of states (while US and most European countries leaders are just as if not more corrupt than Muslim Countries) and not the religion...
Selective hearing... I was saying (again I thought it was quite obvious) what would it take for you to give up this preconceived notion that Islam (the religion) is bad, oppressive, harrassing, etc. as I have answered all your requests.
That's a bit of a generalization isn't it? Especially saying as a rule... It is always preferrable to be merciful, and allowed to be harsh to the limits of the LAW. The Quran places both the limits and the guidelines to show mercy when possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbekistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia
In each of these there are Jewish populations, Some are getting by better than others, but they all have meeting places. I'm not going to bother with examples of Christianity as the centers are everywhere.
Whoever told you that did a great misdeed. If you read in English, I am sure you will find many of the questions you ask answered. If you want to know more, sure there is more meaning to the arabic than can be accurately translated. There is 1 Quran... a few Narrations (same words, same number of letters) which is based on the different dialects of Arabic around at the time that Mouhammed (PBUH) came across. Your arguements seem very focused on certain criteria that I see argued a lot by Christian Apologists found among many different media, my guess is you are questioning based on the assumptions of people who have something against Islam and add to it without even trying to understand the original text in part, much less as whole.
Devils' Advocate
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And round and round and round we go. Anyone else getting dizzy yet?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
When the jizyah tax is higher than the zakat tax...it is harassment, discrimination based on being a non-believer with the intended purpose of forcing conversion.
" The tax is no longer imposed by nation states in the Islamic world.[6] However, armed groups such as ISIS enforce it in some areas they have captured.[7] In the 21st century, it is widely regarded as being at odds with contemporary secular conceptions of citizen's civil rights and equality before the law, although there have been occasional reports of religious minorities in conflict zones and areas subject to political instability being forced to pay jizya.[5]"
"
Jizya has been rationalized as a fee in exchange for the dhimma, that is the permission to practice one's faith with some communal autonomy, and to be entitled to Muslim protection.[3] The second rationale offered is that the imposition of jizya on non-Muslims is similar to the requirement of Zakat from Muslims. Thirdly, jizya created a place for the inclusion of a non-Muslim dhimmi in a land owned and ruled by a Muslim, where routine payment of jizya was a tool of social stratification and treasury's revenue.[13] Finally, jizya served as a reminder of subordination of a non-Muslim under Muslims, and created a financial and political incentive for dhimmis to convert to Islam.[13][14][15]
And al-Razi says in his interpretation of the quranic verse(9:29) in which the jizya was enacted:
The intention of taking the jizya is not to approve the disbelief of non-Muslims in Islam, but rather to spare their lives and to give them some time; in hope that during it; they might stop to reflect on the virtues of Islam and its compelling arguments, and consequently converting from disbelief to belief. That's why it's important to pay the jizya with humiliation and servility, because naturally, any sensible person cannot stand humiliation and servility. So if the disbeliever is given some time watching the pride of Islam and hearing evidences of its authenticity, and see the humiliation of the disbelief, then apparently this might carry him to convert to Islam, and that's the main rationale behind the enactment of the jizya.[16]
Many Muslim rulers saw jizya as a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of the authority of the Islamic state.[17]"
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
What Muslim pays anything even remotely similar as jizyah in any country? (Suggesting jizyah is "just taxes" is misleading, but I'm sure you know that.) What Muslim is coerced into converting from Islam in any other country? What other countries officially sanction the public execution of those who convert from the dominant religion?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Wil addressed it to you...Joe....not me....Juan.
Your original question...for clarification. To which MANY examples have been provided.
S
Shibolet
Guest
You should have started this one post of yours above thus: "Do you ever feel that I am repeating myself?" But of course I do. That's why I have to repeat the same responses I have given before because you return to the same thing over and over again.
Me? I am repeating myself? Is this response really from the cut and paste king who posts his same thread starters in many different forums under different monikers? Really?