Family of God

[Gatekeeper]

I've been contemplating God and our place in life as living creatures. I've come up with a few thoughts I'd like to share. I posted this in belief and spirituality because this reflects my beliefs, and and as such, they don't really belong anywhere else.


A part of parental love is correcting our children, just as God corrects us. We are God's children, thus we are all a part of this family unit that is the God-head (Father-mother-offspring). Our Father is perhaps Spirit (love), our mother is perhaps the material universe, and we are the offspring of both. We are required to learn from our mistakes by the consequences that come as a result of our actions. Our individual mistakes not only affect us but the entire family of God. We are one, and it is love that will bring us together as a functional family. Our Father is perhaps our life force, through which we are able to live peaceably with our brothers and sisters (humanity).


Our father, who is love, might be said to be the head of our family unit, just as our mother, who is the material universe, might be said to be the one who rears us. Our mother supplies our physical needs, just as our Father supplies our spiritual needs. Together they make up God and we, their offspring, complete the God-head (Family). Our Father is love and our mother is loving. Love is the Spirit of our parents (God), and when embraced love enables us to live abundantly. We are part of the God-head (family) but in order for us to live abundant lives, we are perhaps required to value both mother and father, then live through the love they both represent.


Does anyone have any thoughts they might like to contribute to this?


~GK~

 

[radarmark]

A part of parental love is correcting our children, just as God corrects us. We are God's children, thus we are all a part of this family unit that is the God-head (Father-mother-offspring).

Good way to put it, I would be more inclusive. All (the ecosphere) are our M!ther's children and we must care for them as well.

Our Father is perhaps Spirit (love), our mother is perhaps the material universe, and we are the offspring of both.

Spirit-Love-Pneuma-Oversoul, a kind of non-material substance that is immenent in All, works for me. M!ther as everything that is material, yep. Then their combination would be the entire Kosmos (everything there is). We would then be a kind of mini-Kosmos, works for me. I would personally opt for a transcendent Ein Sof Aur... a nothingness a beyond that is not of the Kosmos.

We are required to learn from our mistakes by the consequences that come as a result of our actions. Our individual mistakes not only affect us but the entire family of God.

So it is our obligation to Witness for certain good things (charity, truthfulness, unity.....) and to speak out if they are violted?

We are one, and it is love that will bring us together as a functional family. Our Father is perhaps our life force, through which we are able to live peaceably with our brothers and sisters (humanity).

The climb up from the ooze of individuality we need to overcome family (in the traditional sense), tribe, nation, race, and species (I think). Is not Creation outside of Humanity something we should also live peaceably with in Love?

Our father, who is love, might be said to be the head of our family unit, just as our mother, who is the material universe, might be said to be the one who rears us. Our mother supplies our physical needs, just as our Father supplies our spiritual needs. Together they make up God and we, their offspring, complete the God-head (Family).

Again, works for me... but more inclusively "Creation" not just offspring (Humanity).

Our Father is love and our mother is loving. Love is the Spirit of our parents (God), and when embraced love enables us to live abundantly. We are part of the God-head (family) but in order for us to live abundant lives, we are perhaps required to value both mother and father, then live through the love they both represent.

Let me make an alternative stab. The F!ther is Love; the M!ther, Kindness. We must then manifest loving-kindness towards each other and all of creation.

This gets to the Veddic maitri, the Pali Metta, the ern-ching of Daoism, the mohabbat of Bahaism, the Al-Wadud of the Koran, the Chesed of Judaism...... you can find "loving-kindness" in all traditions (I think).

 

[Gatekeeper]

A part of parental love is correcting our children, just as God corrects us. We are God's children, thus we are all a part of this family unit that is the God-head (Father-mother-offspring).

Good way to put it, I would be more inclusive. All (the ecosphere) are our M!ther's children and we must care for them as well.

Our Father is perhaps Spirit (love), our mother is perhaps the material universe, and we are the offspring of both.

Spirit-Love-Pneuma-Oversoul, a kind of non-material substance that is immenent in All, works for me. M!ther as everything that is material, yep. Then their combination would be the entire Kosmos (everything there is). We would then be a kind of mini-Kosmos, works for me. I would personally opt for a transcendent Ein Sof Aur... a nothingness a beyond that is not of the Kosmos.

We are required to learn from our mistakes by the consequences that come as a result of our actions. Our individual mistakes not only affect us but the entire family of God.

So it is our obligation to Witness for certain good things (charity, truthfulness, unity.....) and to speak out if they are violted?

We are one, and it is love that will bring us together as a functional family. Our Father is perhaps our life force, through which we are able to live peaceably with our brothers and sisters (humanity).

The climb up from the ooze of individuality we need to overcome family (in the traditional sense), tribe, nation, race, and species (I think). Is not Creation outside of Humanity something we should also live peaceably with in Love?

Our father, who is love, might be said to be the head of our family unit, just as our mother, who is the material universe, might be said to be the one who rears us. Our mother supplies our physical needs, just as our Father supplies our spiritual needs. Together they make up God and we, their offspring, complete the God-head (Family).

Again, works for me... but more inclusively "Creation" not just offspring (Humanity).

Our Father is love and our mother is loving. Love is the Spirit of our parents (God), and when embraced love enables us to live abundantly. We are part of the God-head (family) but in order for us to live abundant lives, we are perhaps required to value both mother and father, then live through the love they both represent.

Let me make an alternative stab. The F!ther is Love; the M!ther, Kindness. We must then manifest loving-kindness towards each other and all of creation.

This gets to the Veddic maitri, the Pali Metta, the ern-ching of Daoism, the mohabbat of Bahaism, the Al-Wadud of the Koran, the Chesed of Judaism...... you can find "loving-kindness" in all traditions (I think).

It looks like we are on the same page for the most part. I have since amended a couple things. "Our father is spiritual, our mother is material, and the force (power) that brought them together is love, i.e. the Holy Spirit. When they merged, life was created - living souls. This includes all living creatures

 

[radarmark]

You get my vote! When is the inaugural?

 

[Gatekeeper]

Too funny!

 

[Thomas]

Hi Gatekeeper —

We are God's children, thus we are all a part of this family unit that is the God-head (Father-mother-offspring).

I don't agree with this order of thinking, for the following reasons:

God is One, God is not a composite, not unitary.

I agree that the principle of unity is a divine quality, it is so principially in a transcendent 'one-ness' (in the ordinal, not cardinal sense), that is, not a collection, gathering or union of anything other than Itself, and certainly not of qualitatively different things.

Indeed God is not a 'thing' as other things are things, God is unique in a class of its own, as it were — there is no God but God.

God is Absolute, God is Infinite, and therefore as there can only be one absolute, one Infinite, only God is God.

Our individual mistakes not only affect us but the entire family of God.

God is beyond any contingency, nor does God suffer any condition or determination ... no 'effect at all, as this would render God finite and contingent, a subsistent being. God is, by definition, self-subsistent.

As Scripture says, "I am (that) I am" not "I am like this at the moment because of what is happening to me, I'll be better (or worse) in a minute ..."

(Indeed, by your thesis then, we would have to accept the possibility that, by some chain reaction set off by something so inconsequential as to not even register at the sub-micro-nano-level, God could cease to 'be' altogether.)

To my mind your god is just the totality and exemplar of all things. My point however is that my God transcends all things, and I think this is the order of God of which Scripture speaks.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

To my mind your god is just the totality and exemplar of all things. My point however is that my God transcends all things, and I think this is the order of God of which Scripture speaks.

God bless,

Thomas

Transcends all things? That doesn't make any sense. If God exists then God exists, thus by definition cannot transcend what is. Let me expand my thoughts a bit however: God is infinite, so God is not limited by time. God exists both within space and outside space. God is our infinite reality. In God we live and move and have our being.


God is knowable (in part) by all that exists. God is knowable (in part) by our ability to hear, feel, see, smell, and taste. We experience God through our senses and through life itself. We cannot comprehend God wholly as God is infinite, but we can experience and learn of God through what has been made.


God is the great I Am. We are merely pilgrims on a journey in God. Black holes, the earth, outer space, the universe are but a grain of sand compared to God's infinity. One might compare the universe to a single human cell existing within our body X this thought by infinity and we still will not be able to grasp the depth of God. God has no beginning nor no end!


But alas, I have no desire to get into a my God is bigger than your God argument, so I digress.

 

[Thomas]

Transcends all things? That doesn't make any sense. If God exists then God exists, thus by definition cannot transcend what is.

I'm sorry, but that thinking reduces everything to a flat plane — whereas in fact, the mineral world is transcended by the flora world, the fauna transcends the fauna, the human transcends the fauna, the angelic transcends the human, and the Divine transcends the lot.

The problem with your line of thinking is that it assumes God is a thing, like any other thing ... whereas God is not like any other thing and surpasses every other thing to an absolute and infinite degree.

God is infinite, so God is not limited by time. God exists both within space and outside space. God is our infinite reality. In God we live and move and have our being.

In God, but not as God. God sustains all created nature, God is immanently present in and to all created nature, but created nature is not God, and God is not created.

God does not exist within space and time, were that true, then God would be subject to empirical determination. God is Immanently present in and to creation, but God is not creation, and creation is not God.

Put another way, if creation were to cease to exist, God would not be changed or altered in any way.

God is knowable (in part) by all that exists.

As an intellectual proposition only ... not as a proof (else, again, God would have been proven a long time ago).

From there one can, by faith, proceed, but God is not knowable in any way, other than by self-declaration or self-revelation, to the knower.

God is knowable (in part) by our ability to hear, feel, see, smell, and taste.

I would say God is only knowable to the intellect. God is not an object of the senses, were that so, then God would be empirically demonstrable.

We cannot comprehend God wholly as God is infinite, but we can experience and learn of God through what has been made.

But that does not make the 'thing' God.

Better to experience and learn through what has been revealed.

But alas, I have no desire to get into a my God is bigger than your God argument

OK, but then please don't quote from Scripture, as the God of Scripture is not the God you're seeking.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

True, this is not the G!d of scripture. But there are many who believe that the pantheistic or panentheistic conception is a vaild definition for G!d. If "that of G!d in everything" exists, then G!d is at least partially in space and time. Yes, this flies in the face of Western Logic and Western Theology. But then so does Quantum Mechanics and most cosmology.

 

[Lunitik]

True, this is not the G!d of scripture. But there are many who believe that the pantheistic or panentheistic conception is a vaild definition for G!d. If "that of G!d in everything" exists, then G!d is at least partially in space and time. Yes, this flies in the face of Western Logic and Western Theology. But then so does Quantum Mechanics and most cosmology.

That of God in everything is not in spacetime, it is why when you encounter it, automatically you are outside spacetime. Space and time are concepts of mind, God is beyond mind, cannot be encountered with mind, thus concepts of mind are not valid with that. It is why there are so many reports of satori's or samadhi's seeming to last seconds, yet actually they are hours or days long - what has happened? In my experience, I have seemed to be present for 2-3 seconds in utter oneness, yet around 6 hours have been lost to it... it is very strange, but this is the grounds for what I say, and it is supported by many.

Otherwise, it is perfectly good what you say

 

[Lunitik]

Theology can never touch the truth of God exactly because it is a thought exercise.

There is one thing all who have known agree on: It cannot be known by the human mind. You can use the mind to get beyond it, but it is absolutely necessary to break through the mind. There is nothing more idiotic than attempting to logically describe God, you only succeed in creating an imagining, and then worshiping it is as idol worship. Just by having an idea of God you limit him, you simply have to encounter. There is NO other way to understand.

 

[radarmark]

By your definition, but you have already admitted you have neither the philosophical or scientific credentials to make an independent assessment. You only have "your experience", and as I said before we do not share that experience.

 

[Lunitik]

By your definition, but you have already admitted you have neither the philosophical or scientific credentials to make an independent assessment. You only have "your experience", and as I said before we do not share that experience.

We only do not share it because you will not permit yourself to experience it... what I experienced has been repeated through history, and always the reports match.

There are many things before satori or samadhi, but the ultimate never differs - being in everything, seeing others thoughts and feelings as if they happen to you, utter indivisibility, this is oneness. If you haven't experienced this, then you have not experienced the ultimate, there is still much work to be done... yet it can happen this very moment if you permit.

 

[Lunitik]

Philosophies do not help, it is something related to thinking again, and science means that which is known. Knowledge is not wisdom, wisdom is that which is outside knowledge, that which no knowledge can provide, that only experience can show. Spirituality is not something which you can be booksmart about, you cannot gain anything of it through books, you have to delve into it to taste of it.

Philosia - love of life, totality of life - can help. It is the only way to attain true wisdom. Those moments where you are so total that you are not, that only the activity is - those are glimpses of truth. Most people live a so-so life though, they are too fearful so they limit their experience. It is depressing, but it means their being was never realized in them. The seed has died on the road...

 

[Lunitik]

Meditate as deeply into the ramifications of oneness as you can possibly go, then suddenly an explosion and you are the one - and yet in the experience you are not there, only love is.

 

[Gatekeeper]

True, this is not the G!d of scripture. But there are many who believe that the pantheistic or panentheistic conception is a vaild definition for G!d. If "that of G!d in everything" exists, then G!d is at least partially in space and time. Yes, this flies in the face of Western Logic and Western Theology. But then so does Quantum Mechanics and most cosmology.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Our ancestors may have been attempting to explain God, but like us, had difficulty in accuracy. I kinda view religion as yesterday's science, and the bible as a text book that hold records of the the developed theories held at that time. To me, God is a term used to identify the origin of life, and the nature of. Our theories evolve as more evidence is brought to the table.

 

[Thomas]

True, this is not the G!d of scripture.

Thank you ... it does get tedious when people deploy Scripture to prove their own pet theses.

But there are many who believe that the pantheistic or panentheistic conception is a vaild definition for G!d.

Agreed, but I think the pantheist argument can be proven to be without substance, and personally I find panentheism nothing but a fudge to get over the flaws in pantheism, it's a yes-but/not-but argument.

If "that of G!d in everything" exists, then G!d is at least partially in space and time.

But I don't believe that, for sound philosophical, theological and metaphysical reasons ... I do believe space and time are in God, however ...

If someone could show me, in a finite and contingent nature, that which is absolute and infinite, then I could perhaps be convinced.

That God is immanently present to everything that exists, and that everything exists, and continues to exist, because of the will of God, I assert without hesitation ... but I find the assumption that because God is immanently present in and to something, then that thing is itself divine by nature, a leap too far, quantum or otherwise ... it's an attractive proposition, it seduced our Primordial Parents, and it seduces us today to an even greater degree.

Don't get me wrong, I see God in everything, to the degree that everything allows God to shine through, as it were ... but I do not see the thing itself as God.

There is an apocryphal saying of the Fathers: 'Love your neighbour, because where your neighbour is, God is'.

Or, as the sign says on the path on Mount Athos: 'Even the trees are sacred.'

Personally, I think 'Celtic Christianity' (by which I mean Irish, rather than European, although that's probably a matter of lack of education) got the balance right. Roman Christianity tends towards an unworldly idealism (dosed with a strong litigious undercurrent), Eastern Christianity tends to too much abstractionism ...

To me, its all about participation in the Divine, it's about the Gift of love, and not assuming the Gift is mine by right or nature.

But above all, it's about me conforming myself to God, not the other way round ... but that's the apophatic for you!

God bless

Thomas

 

[Lunitik]

Agreed, but I think the pantheist argument can be proven to be without substance, and personally I find panentheism nothing but a fudge to get over the flaws in pantheism, it's a yes-but/not-but argument.

What are the flaws in pantheism in your view?

It is the case, so why do you say it is without substance?

This is the sort of thing I mean, you take theology as fact, but you do not realize those calling it fact don't know themselves, they are merely hypothesizing. Monism or Pantheism is not a hypothesis, it is an attempt to explain what is the case without bringing in dogma.

In actuality, Jesus was a monist as well, attempting to teach people how to encounter this. Can you bring a single quote from Jesus that argues God is distinct from the universe as you suggest?

 

[Lunitik]

above all, it's about me conforming myself to God, not the other way round ... but that's the apophatic for you!

If you want to conform to God, you must drop all identifications, every idea which causes distinction. In reality, you are conforming to your chosen religion, perhaps based on family tradition or similar. This choice has formed a substantial part of your ego from what I can see...

What if there really isn't something distinct that can be called God? What if the Bible is merely an attempt to control people? Do you really think the human attributes God apparently expresses, such as jealousy and anger, are really something applicable to God? Use some simple common sense and you can see this is a disgusting invention, although in the mystic realms that are applicable there is much beauty.

God is love, you are an expression of love, concentrate on that, not on other nonsense.

 

[Lunitik]

Please understand you believe a particular individuals interpretation of what has happened to him, and other believers take on what he has said about that encounter. Where is the real proof of it? Jesus is simply an enlightened man, but your whole structure is based around him, everything you think has to conform to him in some way... he talks based on a particular faith system, yet that system has killed him. Today, those same priests are profiting from him instead - it is the same mind that killed him though, just in new outfits.

It is fine to believe, but it calls whatsoever experience you say you've had into question. Why will you believe what men say over your own experience? If you have experienced oneness, you must know it is impossible that anything is distinct, yet you continue to place God outside of it... God is Holy - the whole - and we are all part of that, this is what monism and pantheism say, but somehow you disagree... this simply shows you a liar or that your ego has come back in and a need to remain part of the community you know to be erroneous persists - there is no other possibility, except that you don't understand what happened at all.

I compel you again: what was Jesus' experience is the potential of all human beings, stop worshiping him and attain to the flowering he represents. Then you know what he means yourself, you don't have to rely on these idiots who have tried to organize his rebellion - and please understand, this is exactly what he was, a Jewish rebel. All that attain are rebels in their own right, because they recognize what is screwed up around them and try to correct it - it means going against the establishment, which is the very definition. Anything less and you would be Jewish today...