Miracle vs Blessing

For there are a good many people who believe in a God and who also believe that the 'miracles' in the Bible could not have actually happened.
No, that's not quite right. It's more that people see miraculous events as myths and fables rather than an actual event.
This would be our own Thomas Jefferson... Not much of a believer in miracles.. I don't know if he would be I your former category or latter catagory. But do believe you've hit two of the categories non miracle believers would fit into.

I think there are at least a couple more...folks that believe it may have happened but there is a scientific explanation.... That there is some bases in fact but also some hyperbole...and a group who have a metaphysical explanation, (slightly different than the metaphor in the mythology)
 
Nope, what is mean, is in order to be a miracle it has to be something that can't happen that did happen.
Can't under the norms of the world you inhabit ...
 
Hi DA —
Seems you are contradicting yourself.
Possibly.

In the first post you claim that the Divine can change natural law; in the second you are saying a Divine can't change natural law.
OK. Let me try and explain my thinking, possibly using a bad analogy, but if so, perhaps you can see what I'm getting at, even if the analogu's a bad one ... ?

I'm suggesting that God is the architect of the Cosmos, and the laws that determine its governance.

I'm also suggesting there are higher laws, or perhaps I'm saying God can access the source code that underwrites those laws, the code which codes the laws, if you will. My 'very bad analogy' (VBA) is the relation between Newtonian and Quantum Physics. The Newtonian is the natural law, the Quantum is the Divine Will.

So I'm saying that Natural Law is hard on the outside, but soft in the middle. For God to work a miracle does not require the suspension, supression or what have you of the Law, rather a higher authority can work through the law in a way we cannot comprehend.

If a Divine can transcend the rules of this reality to do whatever it wants, seems to me it can make a round triangle.
What would a round triangle look like? You can't picture it because it's logically impossible. It's a paradox.

The same for 'an irresistable force meets an immovable object'. Either the force is irresistable, or the object is immovable, but the two cannot exist simultaneously.

I admit I'm kinda quibbling here.
Hey ... what's a quibble between friends?

This is an interesting set of statements. There is something deeper there that hit me and I have not quite put my finger on what it is yet.
Ah-ha!

For there are a good many people who believe in a God and who also believe that the 'miracles' in the Bible could not have actually happened.
Well on what grounds is dependent upon their reasoning, but there are firm metaphysical principles to say they could and can happen. It's rather about the a priori conditions one sets up. But to asseet they can't happen is an act of faith, really. They can't prove theuy can't happen.

It's more that people see miraculous events as myths and fables rather than an actual event.
The process of rationalisation has been going on a long time. It's only emerged in the last couple of centuries as secularism, but there you have it.

Sort of like Greek myth of Aphrodite being born out of sea foam.
I think the Greek myths deal with something else — they are more investigations into the human condition, the foundations of pasychology, rather than metaphysics or theology.

Not sure I have it nailed down yet, so possibly more to come.
I await with patience ...
 
What would a round triangle look like? You can't picture it because it's logically impossible. It's a paradox.
While not your round triangle.... I believe may be possible, for a triangle to look round...all a matter of perspective, depending on the way you look at things...

How about a round square, or rather a cylindrical square tube...

 
Not happy at all, and now we're doing less than 20mph and the revs are still dropping ... and there it is, a pull-in for maintenance vehicles, out of harms way, right there. I just managed to park it before the engine cut out. I thought 'that's a blessing!'

Then again, maybe it was a miracle....

Pull_in.jpg
 
LOL! Matthew 8:26
Lol... That be the difference...me and tommy don't need the miracles to believe...we like facts not hyperbole...

If eye saw something that defied science to that extreme ... Then I would believe in miracles... I just don't need them to find solace in the good book...blessings, peace and bliss are more than enough for me (that and.the metaphysical, historical explanations)
 
Hi Wil —
I'm not going to convince you otherwise, just wanted to point out a couple of things.

The first is that the skeptic's position of 'not until I see with my own eyes' is not an argument either way, it's simply the rationalist position.

Secondly, your comment:
I just don't need them to find solace in the good book...
Is that what you think they're about?

we like facts not hyperbole...
But as tommy found out, it wasn't hyperbole.

blessings, peace and bliss are more than enough for me
OK, but that's all a matter of degree.

"Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed." (John 20:27-29)
Different order of blessing here, which you could experience too, if only ...
 
Wrong doubting Thomas.... I was referring to my previous reference a couple posts previous...Thomas Jefferson... Our rebellious founding father.

I know seeing is believing isn't an argument, it was a statement.
s that what you think they're about?
No, but as to me they are not required for belief....what.are they about?

And heck someone may convince me, my views in things change regularly.
 
Lol, of course G!d could kill two birds with one stone... Simply make our current fearless leader into a thinking caring human....and I would suddenly believe in miracles and that he might make america great again... (Not the thread to discuss if it ever was)
 
Well that can't be right, can it, as to qualify as a miracle something has to have happened! :D

What you mean is, in order for something to be a miracle, it must be "an extraordinary and/or welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency".
I enjoyed this one.
 
I was referring to my previous reference a couple posts previous...Thomas Jefferson... Our rebellious founding father.
Ah, that /rationalist/reductionist cut 'n' paste job. 'Nuff said! When it comes to belief, we're not really talking about the same person at all.
 
Ah, that /rationalist/reductionist cut 'n' paste job. 'Nuff said! When it comes to belief, we're not really talking about the same person at all.
Cut and paste, you make it sound so easy...the rewrite was by quill...and then type set by hand and printed... But yes exactly not the same person...although the doubter is more of an archetype for other doubters to relate to eh? The exception that proves the rule...you will all come around eventually...
 
Cut and paste, you make it sound so easy...
Well his kind was. My kind — I was a paste-up artist before the Mac — is a skill!

...although the doubter is more of an archetype for other doubters to relate to eh?...
I don't see Jefferson as a doubter, rather as a rationaliser. He simply reduced the text to a rather anodyne collection of moralisms.
 
Still hoping
Well his kind was. My kind — I was a paste-up artist before the Mac — is a skill!


I don't see Jefferson as a doubter, rather as a rationaliser. He simply reduced the text to a rather anodyne collection of moralisms.
He pretty much just removed the miracles... I don't know what else he took out.
 
I don't understand the context by which a miracle allegedly occurs. Is there a prerequisite involved such as being in dire straits or hopeless situations?
According to the good Pastor I quoted in the OP, miracles come about in response to crisis, but he didn't elaborate beyond that. A lot more to it I'm sure.
 
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If I may.

In Islamic beliefs we have three different levels of "breaking of the norm".

The first is the Mu'jiza (miracle) and this is what is found amongst prophets and messengers and is generally done in response to a challenge. It is viewed as a verification of authenticity in the face of challenges.

The second is called Karama (marvels) and is also often called miracle in English - this is what is found amongst righteous people in every age. It occurs without being sought and without their "control" over it. It is often a gift to firm up the faith of those weak in faith.

The third is called istidraj (deception) and this is found in people of corrupt faith and beliefs. This is done as a means to confirm the corrupt in their corruptions.

All three of these are breaking of the normative laws of nature. As for how this can be done, I offer two explanations. The first is that God alone is the Uncaused cause or primary cause and as such, despite the normal cause and effect relationships He has placed in His creation, He may interject based on His knowledge, will and power. The second is that this world is made up, at its core, energy and as such is full of potentiality. Think of waves - waves are not the movement of water but a manifestation of the energy passing through the water - this is why waves do not carry objects along but rather, objects bob up and down, riding the waves. As energy moves, directed by the will of God, the potentiality is realized according to that will. In this way, we look at the three rulings of modal logic - if a thing is neither necessary or impossible, it is possible - and hence amongst the myriad possibilities of existence.

Besides these three breaking of the norms, there are also blessings (which in English and Arabic originally contains two qualities : continuity and increase) and bounties (which are manifestations of divine gifts which we call as blessings in our every day speech - as was mentioned above...within the laws of nature.)

There is a saying amongst Sufis "the karama is the menses of the saints."
On the surface this may seem odd but what it means is that it is a private matter that is hidden from others and only those nearest to you in relation would know about it due to its signs upon you.

The point behind my adding that Sufi saying is to point out the purpose of all of it - none of the blessings and marvels are meant except to remind a person to be grateful for the signs of their Lord upon them.
 
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