Christians before Jesus

wil

wil

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a figment of your imagination
From another thread...
Thomas said:
I rather think they were, but that's whether one views Christ as 'in' time or transcending it.
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I view Jesus as in time, but Christ as transcending it.

But I'd appreciate hearing you expounding on your comment.
 
wil said:
From another thread... I view Jesus as in time, but Christ as transcending it.
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I view Jesus and Christ as the one person — as per Chalcedon (451AD):
Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.
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The human nature of Christ suffers limitation as does any human: hunger and thirst, temptation and doubt, and of course temporal unknowing. There is no contradiction nor confusion between His human and His divine nature — inasmuch as such terms pose the question: does the Divine possess a 'nature' at all? To which I would say — without contradicting Chalcedon which deploys a necessary language to make itself understood in principle — that It does not, It just Is, and the only way we can define it objectively is as Transcendent, Infinite, and so forth, in opposition to that which we experience as finite, relative and contingent.

So I would say the one person Jesus Christ was in no doubt nor two minds about His divinity, but to us that manifests itself as certitude in who He is.

How then do I explain "But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father"
(Mark 13:32)? It's not that He does not know, He describes its happening in the preceeding verses (24-30) — but He never speaks of the Eschaton other than in parables, and in the most general terms. In this instance He is making a point: In reality the date is immaterial, what matters is being ever ready: "Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is. Even as a man who going into a far country, left his house; and gave authority to his servants over every work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore, (for you know not when the lord of the house cometh: at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning,) Lest coming on a sudden, he find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch" (v33-37).
 
I guess my views confused things...

The context of your statement and the OP is regarding did Abraham, Moses go thru Christ to speak to G!d?

John 14:6
 
wil said:
I guess my views confused things...
The context of your statement and the OP is regarding did Abraham, Moses go thru Christ to speak to G!d?
John 14:6
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I'd say yes.

The Fathers taught that the Holy Spirit reveals the Son, and the Son reveals the Father, founded on Scripture: "the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things" (John 14:26).

And likewise Paul says: "... you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba" (Romans 8:15) and "And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba" (Galatians 4:6).
 
Thomas said:
whereby we cry: Abba" (Romans 8:15) and "And because you are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying: Abba" (Galatians 4:6).
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"cry: Abba"

Eureka! So these two verses 1000% uphold the purpose of the Hare-Krishna Mantra! So too it affirms my own citation of the Lord's Prayer's proclamation, "Hollowed be thy name"

In this epoch, the only way, the only way, the only way, of spiritual penance is the recitation of the Lord's "Holy Name"
the only way, the only way, the only way. Only this essential simply connection is available to the spiritual seeker.
 
bhaktajan said:
In this epoch, the only way, the only way, the only way, of spiritual penance is the recitation of the Lord's "Holy Name"
the only way, the only way, the only way. Only this essential simply connection is available to the spiritual seeker.
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Agreed, agreed, agreed.

The 'Jesus Prayer' is practised more in the East than the West, whereas the Rosary is its rather more involved couterpart.

I always found it interesting that in the old Roman (Latin) Liturgy, 'Kýrie, eléison' (Lord have mercy) is in Greek. It's acknowledged as being a very old practice within the church, and can serve as a mantra meditation if one so desires.
 
So in Christian theology (much like Muslim, 'everyone is a Muslim they just don't know it yet) everyone that communicates with G!d is doing so thru Christ....so anyone anywhere can be a Christian, even if they have never read the Bible, or heard the name...back to the beginnings of time?
 
Thomas said:
Agreed, agreed, agreed.

The 'Jesus Prayer' is practised more in the East than the West, whereas the Rosary is its rather more involved couterpart.

I always found it interesting that in the old Roman (Latin) Liturgy, 'Kýrie, eléison' (Lord have mercy) is in Greek. It's acknowledged as being a very old practice within the church, and can serve as a mantra meditation if one so desires.
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Well, Lord have mercy! Double Eureka!

As they say in the Greek. [an old southern saying]
 
wil said:
So in Christian theology ... everyone that communicates with G!d is doing so thru Christ
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Yes.

wil said:
... so anyone anywhere can be a Christian, even if they have never read the Bible, or heard the name...back to the beginnings of time?
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Well, yes. Anyone who does God's will is a member of the flock... To borrow from the parables, such a person might be likened to a worker in the fields who has never met the master. It's referred to as 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit'.

The disciples had wit enough to realise that if Christ came to save all, then that all encompasses all time, all place. Once the door was opened, as it were, to the gentile world, they could not see any grounds for exclusion, other than self-willed refusal.
 
Cool so Muslims believe Christians are Muslims and don't know it, and Christians believe Muslims communicate to G!d thru Christ.

Whatta system.
 
wil said:
Cool so Muslims believe Christians are Muslims and don't know it, and Christians believe Muslims communicate to G!d thru Christ.
Whatta system.
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Well, any other 'system' would be illogical.
 
I understand The Christ as God expressed as and for man: not as a fish, not as a neutron star -- all of which are God too?
 
Thomas said:
Is that no pantheism?
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I think of pantheism as related only to the natural, not the spiritual dimension, along with wicca, druidism, etc. Back to: the greater wheel of Spirit turns the lesser wheel of nature, but is not turned by it.

That God surrounds and contains and permeates the natural world (which includes neutron stars) definitely, yes.
 
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RJM Corbet said:
I think of pantheism as related only to the natural, not the spiritual dimension ...
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Well technically, in pantheism it's all one.

RJM Corbet said:
That God surrounds and contains and permeates the natural world (which includes neutron stars) definitely, yes.
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Yes, but not that God is the natural world, or the natural world is a 'mode' of divine being.
 
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