The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World

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How does this statement conform with the point of an interfaith forum?
In a word, 2 rather, it doesn't. Attempting to cast doubt on the beliefs of millions is about as far from interfaith as you can get. Frankly, here of late this thread has become more a battle of egos than anything remotely resembling interfaith. Perhaps it's time it were closed.
 
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I can't understand what he's supposed to have done wrong?
 
Jewish issues were discussed, you've made it painfully clear you have no interest in acknowledging them. I can guess why...
OK. If you can point to what Jewish issues were discussed, I'll happily discuss them.
 
I hadn't intended to go here, but since you opened the door...
Yes, you might argue that, but you would be at best only partially correct. The roots are MUCH deeper.
Oh, surely they do ... I was staying close to the question of emperor v bishop.

The Catechism’s traditional presentation of the Ten Commandments:
Actually, the Catechism presents the Decalogue as listed in Exodus 20, the Decalogue as listed in Deuteronomy 5, and a traditional catechetical formula, so the Decalogue is listed three times in all, with extensive commentary throughout.

The prohibition in question needs first of all to be read in context –
Exodus 20:3-5: "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous... "

Deuteronomy 5:7-9: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God ..."

In both instances it's clear that the prohibition against any image or likeness refers to the idols of the polytheist peoples who surrounded Israel in the region, but not images created within a specific Hebrew context, viz: the sanctuary and the Ark of the Covenant (Exodus 25) which the people did bow down to and did serve.

Furthermore:
Numbers 21:8-9: "And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live."
1 Chronicles 28:18: "And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord."
2 Chronicles 3:10-17: "He made also in the house of the holy of holies two cherubims of image work: and he overlaid them with gold. ... So the wings of the two cherubims were spread forth, and were extended twenty cubits: and they stood upright on their feet, and their faces were turned toward the house without. He made also a veil of violet, purple, scarlet, and silk: and wrought in it cherubims. He made also before the doors of the temple two pillars ... These pillars he put at the entrance of the temple, one on the right hand, and the other on the left: that which was on the right hand, he called Jachin: and that on the left hand, Boot."

Josephus goes on to record this, regarding the Veil of the Temple:
"Before these hung a veil of equal length, of Babylonian tapestry, with embroidery of blue and fine linen, of scarlet also and purple, wrought with marvellous skill. Nor was this mixture of materials without its mystic meaning: it typified the universe. For the scarlet seemed emblematical of fire, the fine linen of the earth, the blue of the air, and the purple of the sea; the comparison in two cases being suggested by their colour, and in that of the fine linen and purple by their origin, as the one is produced by the earth and the other by the sea. On this tapestry was portrayed a panorama of the heavens, the signs of the Zodiac excepted... (Jewish Wars 5.5.4 211–5.5 219)

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From wiki on aniconism
A number of verses in the Hebrew Bible refer to prohibitions against the creation of various forms of images, invariably linked directly with idolatry.

Leviticus 26:1: "(Therefore,) do not make yourselves false gods (ie: idols). Do not raise up a stone idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves. Do not place a kneeling stone in your land so that you can prostrate yourselves on it. I am God your Lord."

Similar injunctions appear in Numbers 33:52 and Deuteronomy 4:16 and 27:15; in all cases, the creation of the image is associated with idolatry, and indeed, the words commonly translated as "image" or some variant thereof (פסל pesel, שקוץ shikuts) are generally used interchangeably with words typically translated as "idol" (e.g., אליל elil). (An important exception is צלם tselem, used in such verses as Genesis 1:26: "let us make man in our image"; this word was not associated with idols.)

Despite the semantic association with idols, Halakha ("Jewish law") as taught by the Shulkhan Arukh ("Code of Jewish Law") and practiced and applied by Conservative Judaism and Orthodox Judaism today, interprets the verses as prohibiting the creation of certain types of graven images of people, angels, or astronomical bodies, whether or not they are actually used as idols. (my emphasis) The Shulkhan Arukh states: "It is forbidden to make complete solid or raised images of people or angels, or any images of heavenly bodies except for purposes of study" ("Heavenly bodies" are included here because the stars and planets were worshipped by some religions in human forms. Astronomical models for scientific purposes are permitted under the category of "study.")

This has been extended to surprising degree:
"There was a time not so long ago when it was generally held that the over-strict interpretation of one of the Commandments (the Second of them according to the Jewish traditional division, the Third according to the Christian) as well as of other passages of the Pentateuch, meant that representational art of any sort whatsoever was rigorously forbidden to strictly observant Jews. (my emphasis) The most telling passage was as a matter of fact not in the Ten Commandments but in the elaboration of this point in Deuteronomy (4:16-18), which forbids in the most uncompromising terms the manufacture of “the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, the likeness of any thing that creepeth upon the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth.” The implication was of course that such likenesses should not be made for purposes of worship. But the text does not say so; and there can be no doubt that the manufacture of such “images,” whether of man, beast, fish, or fowl (let alone the heavenly bodies), was contrary to the express injunction of Mosaic Law. That Moses himself seems to have found a loophole in his own code when he ordered the manufacture of the Cherubim, as did Solomon after him (who added brazen oxen to support the great Temple laver) was beside the point: God knew what he was about (my emphasis) Commentary Magazine

When it comes to Christianity, the wiki article cited above makes an interesting point:
Many art historians have long believed that there was a tradition in antiquity, with no surviving examples, of luxury illuminated manuscript scrolls of books from the Tanakh among Hellenized Jews. The evidence for this is Christian works of the Late Antique and Early Medieval periods whose iconography is thought to derive from works in this tradition...

... the discovery in 1932 of the 3rd century Dura-Europos synagogue in Syria came as a considerable surprise, as it has large areas of wall-paintings with figures of the prophets and others, and narrative scenes. There are several representations of the Hand of God, suggesting that this motif reached Christian art from Judaism. A virtually unique Christian mosaic depiction of the Ark of the Covenant (806) at Germigny-des-Prés, which includes the hand, is believed also to be derived from Jewish iconography; the Ark also appears at Dura-Europos. Several ancient synagogues in Israel have also been excavated, revealing large floor-mosaics with figurative elements, especially animals and Hellenistic representations of the Zodiac. However, some of these, notably that at Naaran in the West Bank, have had the living figures removed, leaving inanimate symbols such as the menorah intact.

It has been proposed that this was done by the Jewish community in the 6th or early 7th century, as part of a controversy within Judaism over images that paralleled that within Christianity leading to the Byzantine iconoclasm, leading to a stricter attitude towards images, at least in synagogues. There is also evidence that from about 570 new synagogue mosaics were aniconic. An alternative explanation for the removals is that they were done after the Muslim Conquest, and related to the decree of Caliph Yazid II in 721 (although this referred to Christian images). The decoration of the cave walls and sarcophagi at the Jewish cemetery at Beit She'arim also uses images, some drawn from Hellenistic pagan mythology, in the 2nd to 4th centuries CE.

Finally, this from a contemporary source, which I cite only because it strikes me as utterly ridiculous - highlighted in bold, with my comment following:
"Over time, this commandment has been interpreted in a variety of ways. The most common prohibition, and the one that’s most obvious from the text, is against creating sculptures of people, animals, or planets for the purpose of worshipping them. One of the primary messages of the Torah is that worshipping idols is not allowed, so it’s not surprising that creating pieces of art that could be used as idols was prohibited."
This prohibition then covers anything and everything, as anything can become a fetish object ...

"You asked specifically about drawing the human form, so I’ll give you a bit more history on how that issue is treated in rabbinic literature. The Talmud comments on the second commandment, and takes a very strict stance against producing images of faces, ruling it forbidden, but sanctioning owning images of faces that were created by non-Jews. (Avodah Zara 43a)"
Why God is OK with images created by non-Jews – surely the ownership of said images by Jews is the point!!!

"Today most traditional rabbinic authorities go by the ruling in the Shulchan Aruch, sanctioning depictions of the human body that are somehow incomplete. For example, a sculpted bust would be acceptable, but not a full human form; a drawing in which part of the body is obstructed by a piece of furniture or another person would also be acceptable."
Which, really, is utter nonsense. By this token it would be fine to own the famous portrait of Christine Keeler!

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The commentary of the Catechism regarding the prohibition runs from paragraph 2129-2132

The explanation follows from the point that the prohibition was against idols, specifically (in the cutlural context of Israel) the idols of their polytheist neighbours.

As referenced above, in the Hebrew Scriptures themselves it's clear God ordained and instructed the making of images that point symbolically toward salvation — the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.

Considering the Mystery of the Incarnation, the seventh council at Nicaea (787AD) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons – of Christ, of Mary as Mother of God, of angels and saints. By virtue of the Incarnation, the Son of God introduced a new 'economy' of images.

The theological term 'economy', from the Greek oikonomia, refers to the 'handling' of something, a discretionary deviation from the letter in order to adhere to the spirit. In that sense it's akin to the Buddhist concept of upaya, it's a providential means.

The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols.

Indeed, "the honour rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it"
(St. Basil, De Spiritu Sancto 18,45: Nicaea II: DS601; Trent: DS1821-1825; Vatican II: Sacrosanctum Concilium 126; Lumen Gentium 67)

The honour paid to the sacred image is a "respectful veneration," not adoration, which is due to God alone:
"Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is."
(St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae II-II, 81, 3 ad 3)

Catholics have long faced this accusation, the deification of images, or idolatry — it's one of the standard accusations of the Reformation, that did away with images altogether — and it's one that many simply refuse to accept any explanation to the contrary.

I particularly like looking at the stars when I can get away from London and its light pollution, and the sense I sometimes get is quite profound. Is this idolatry? I think not, I'm aware of the Creator, and of the Cosmos as a theophany.

The difference is in worshipping something, or worshipping through something, and the Reformation demonstrated that most people need symbols as a means of focus, and feel 'all at sea' when those symbols are taken away.
 
But is there a sense that Christianity has somehow achieved an unfair leg-over Judaism? Via Constantine?
Without a doubt. The Edict of Milan was revolutionary. It allowed pilgrims, presbyters and prelates to travel without fear of persecution, and the Council at Nicea was the first material sign of the Catholic – Universal – Church.

The arc of anti-semitism continued on its path, and after Constantine later emperors tightened the proscriptions and prohibitions against them. From here on we can see the Jews being marginalised and scorned, with all the tragic historical consequence that followed.

The emergence of Christendom, of a Holy Roman Empire, first required the collapse of the empire as such, so that element is, I think, not a given.

On one site it was said that Christianity played its part in the collapse of the empire. I'm not so sure, as one of the reasons for Christianity's expansion was its social cohesion.

If, by making Christianity the state religion undermined the Roman religious traditions, I wonder how much Caligula, Nero etc., contributed to that.
 
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Sticking with icons ...

The earliest Christian art was sketchy, to say the least. The decoration of tombs in the Catacombs, for instance, were carried out in the knowledge that the Catacombs were public places and not, as we were sometimes led to believe, a secret network of tunnels where Christians met ... All the figurative art seems to have followed biblical themes, especially OT imagery that could be applied to Christ. Abraham and Isaac, Jonah, etc. Specifically Christian theme was the Good Shepherd.

Of interest to me is symbology.

The dove appears often. The dove appears in the story of the Ark, and the ark was a type of the Church. Also the dove signifying the Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus.

The peacock is interesting. The peacock was a symbol of immortality to the Greeks, so one can see its easy adoption by Christians. There then flows various explanations, a peacock drinking from a vase is a symbol of a Christian drinking the waters of eternal life. Because of its startling beauty and magisterial appearance, it's hardly surprising the peacock makes an appearance in Persian and Babylonian symbolism.

The pelican was another, but that is late, beginning around the 12th century. From somewhere someone got the idea that the pelican would puncture her own breast to fed her young when no other food was available.

The anchor was adopted because from antiquity the anchor was seen as a symbol of hope and safety. For Christians, Christ is the unfailing hope of all who believe in him: Saint Peter, Saint Paul and several of the Fathers speak in this sense. The anchor is referred to in Hebrews 6:19-20.

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The cross is relatively discreet. It was represented by the letter T, and was the symbol of Christianity by the 2nd century. Clement of Alexandria called it "the Lord's sign" and his contemporary Tertullian rejected the accusation that Christians are crucis religiosi ('adorers of the gibbet') in De Corona, written 204AD. Tertullian mentions the Christian tradition of tracing the sign of the cross on the forehead.
 
I'm no longer part of the in crowd, so I suppose this is the way to shove me out the door? All those years trying, vainly, to keep the peace around here...yeah, wasted time.

By no means am I trying to shove you out the door. My post was meant as an inquisitive one, not an accusatory one. I should have made that clearer and apologize.
 
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OK Thomas, old chum...I concede...you win...here's another fine mess you've gotten me into

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Here is your grand prize

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As runner up, I will keep the rabbi teaching us to love one another and the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
 
... As runner up, I will keep the rabbi teaching us to love one another and the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount ...

But as the Christ Messiah Jesus was more than just another Rabbi? He obviously was accepted as a teacher in the temple. But he was killed because he declared himself Messiah and the Son of God. He spoke strongly against the 'whitened sepulchres' -- professional religious leaders of the day -- as he might again now, of some of the new ones, of the new religion, grown from him.

But when he died the veil of the temple was torn. There is no room to merely respect Jesus as just a Jewish rabbi who said good things? Or to propose that, because Jesus was born an observant Jew, that Christianity is still bound by the 600+ Jewish rituals?

The builders rejected the stone, that became the cornerstone?
 
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It would be an extremely hard decision for a sincere Jew to forsake the Jewish law observances for 'Christianity', and no easier now than for those of Christ's time, or in the early AD centuries. It's not an easy question. I believe there are 'Messianic Jews', who while accepting Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, continue as observant Jews? I think?
 
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It would be an extremely hard decision for a sincere Jew to forsake the Jewish law observances for 'Christianity', and no easier now than for those of Christ's time, or in the early AD centuries. It's not an easy question. I believe there are 'Messianic Jews', who while accepting Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, continue as observant Jews? I think?
The most sincere answer I know to give you, is to follow your heart.
 
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But when he died the veil of the temple was torn. There is no room to merely respect Jesus as just a Jewish rabbi who said good things? Or to propose that, because Jesus was born an observant Jew, that Christianity is still bound by the 600+ Jewish rituals?
"(But) he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29

I so wish Bananabrain were here, he could explain so much better than I. In the Jewish traditions, Gentiles are not obligated to the full 613 laws. There is what is called the Noachide (Noahide) laws:

  1. Not to worship idols.
  2. Not to curse God.
  3. To establish courts of justice.
  4. Not to commit murder.
  5. Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
  6. Not to steal.
  7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Follow this with Romans 2:12-15
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
 
We’re going to pause this thread for a little bit.
 
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