Essene Influence in Early Christianity

[Courage]

1) The Sadducees did not limit their acceptance of sacred text to only the Torah.
2) I don't understand what you mean by this.
3) What do you figure were the major areas in which the Essenes and the Pharisees agreement? What were those "minor" issues - other than living arrangements - that you believe separated them?
4) Who are the Hebrew speaking Jews you are talking about? Although Hebrew was still spoken and understood by some Jews in the land, the language most Jews in Judea spoke and understood was Aramaic.
5) What thoughts are you referring to and what makes you believe they were adopted by most Jews back then?

I think you need to first distinguish between the Written Law and the Oral Law. Sadducees actually limit their acceptance to the Written Law (i.e., only the first 5 books of today's OT Bible).

Second, you may need to read more about Jewish history such as written by Josephus. Acts mentioned an event with Jews all came to Jerusalem but speaking different languages. That's why the speaking in tongue.

Basically, Hebrew speaking Jews back then used the Bible Canon defined and upheld by the Pharisees. Hellenistic Jews (those no longer had the ability to read Hebrew) used LXX instead. LXX however, unlike the Jewish Canon, wasn't controlled nor enforced by any authority.

 

[Ahanu]

Basically, Hebrew speaking Jews back then used the Bible Canon defined and upheld by the Pharisees. Hellenistic Jews (those no longer had the ability to read Hebrew) used LXX instead. LXX however, unlike the Jewish Canon, wasn't controlled nor enforced by any authority.

4) Who are the Hebrew speaking Jews you are talking about? Although Hebrew was still spoken and understood by some Jews in the land, the language most Jews in Judea spoke and understood was Aramaic.

So was Hebrew the language of elite Jews, the language used in formal settings strictly by Jewish teachers, the language of written discourse, or the language the general population knew? I'm not sure about your answer concerning this one, @Courage.

Here's what I found about the languages of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

While the majority of Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew, the collection also includes many Aramaic and Greek texts, as well as some Arabic texts and a small number of Latin fragments.

Dead Sea Scrolls written in Hebrew include biblical texts, non-biblical literary works, and documents such as deeds and letters. While some documents contain specific dates, most are dated on the basis of paleographical analysis (the study of the development of scripts over time), and sometimes with carbon-14 dating. These texts illustrate the vitality of the Hebrew language in ancient Judea.

Most of these Hebrew Scrolls are written in the standard "square" ("Jewish") script, very similar to today’s Modern Hebrew, while several are written in paleo-Hebrew, an ancient script from the First Temple period. Interestingly, some Scrolls written in the standard script use the ancient script specifically for writing the divine name. Additionally, some Scrolls are written in cryptic scripts (Cryptic A, B, and C), which use unusual signs to represent Hebrew alphabet letters.

Scholars commonly speak of "Qumran Hebrew" as a literary Hebrew dialect. Some Scrolls from the Qumran caves have certain distinctive features, such as the use of "plene" spelling (using the letters א, ה, ו, י to indicate vowels), which scholars have identified as "Qumran Scribal Practice." The documents from the refuge caves of the Judean Desert are written in a less formal Hebrew.

For some very fragmentary manuscripts found in the refuge caves, there is no way to determine whether the language of the text is Hebrew or Aramaic. Several works from Qumran, such as Enoch and Tobit, are preserved in both Aramaic and Hebrew versions.

Aramaic was the Near East "lingua franca" of the Biblical period, and it is still used among several Christian communities today. Just like the Hebrew Scrolls, the majority of Aramaic manuscripts were written in standard “square" ("Jewish”) script. Represented in the Dead Sea Scrolls are a variety of Aramaic dialects: Official Aramaic, Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, Nabatean, and Christian Palestinian Aramaic.

​

 

[Ahanu]

While reading through Cino's source, I was thinking of temple theology and how it can possibly add to our understanding of Qumran texts.

Since this was posted in the Judaism section of the forum, I'd like to link to the following resource:

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Disclaimer: I am not Jewish, but am not a total stranger to Judaism. While I think the above page is a good entry into the Jewish conception of the Messiah, it would be good for one of the Jewish members of this forum to give a more authoritative comment.

"The term 'mashiach' literally means 'the anointed one,' and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days."​

So where's the oil? Margaret Baker connects the concept of oil with the Tree of Life, light, and, surprisingly, Qumran:

Jewish texts from the time of Jesus said that the holy anointing oil had been hidden away for more than 600 years, and so there had been no anointed high priest in Jerusalem for many years.6 In the seventh century BCE, during the reign of King Josiah, there had been a revolution in Jerusalem, and many of the treasures of Solomon’s temple that had been kept in the holy of holies were hidden away. The ark disappeared, the manna disappeared, Aaron’s rod disappeared, and the holy anointing oil disappeared. All, they said, would all be restored in the time of the Messiah.7 Indeed, there could be no Messiah until the oil was restored, and no holy temple.

Moses was given detailed instructions for making the tabernacle and its furnishings, but the Bible never explains why they had to be made in that way. There is no passage saying why the oil had to be perfumed and blended in that special way, or how it was prepared, but the early Christians knew that the oil represented the perfumed oil of the tree of life. The Son of God, they said, before he became incarnate, was anointed with oil from the wood of the tree of life, and that is why he was called the Messiah, the Anointed One. He Himself anoints everyone who comes into his Kingdom, so that their light may shine, and they are filled with the Holy Spirit. They are given eternal life.8

Aaron the high priest and his sons had been anointed with a perfumed oil that represented the perfumed oil from the tree of life. According to teaching attributed to St Peter, Christians were to receive again the oil from the tree of life, and not just an imitation. ‘If the oil blended by men had such power, think how great is the oil that was extracted by God himself from a branch of the tree of life.’9

This link between the holy oil and the tree of life is not clear in the Bible, but it is found in both Jewish and Christian writings.10 The oil was the sacrament of Wisdom. The Tree of Life was the symbol of Wisdom, and the heavenly oil flowed from Wisdom into the tree of life. This is why the Psalmist sang: ‘With thee is the fountain of life, and in thy light we shall see light.’11 Moses anointed Aaron the high priest so that he was joined to the source of life and light, and it was the duty of the high priest to tend the lamp in the temple, to make sure that it was always burning.12 The anointed ones were themselves lights to their people. The hymns found among the Dead Sea Scrolls praise God who has appeared to his people as perfect light and has, through them, given light to others.13 Jesus gave the same teaching. He said ‘I am the light of the world,’14 and he also said to his disciples: ‘You are the light of the world’15. The oil gave light to the anointed, and they became lights in the world.

A summary of Margaret Baker's temple theology can be found here. Definitely interesting stuff.

 

[RabbiO]

I think you need to first distinguish between the Written Law and the Oral Law. Sadducees actually limit their acceptance to the Written Law (i.e., only the first 5 books of today's OT Bible).

Second, you may need to read more about Jewish history such as written by Josephus. Acts mentioned an event with Jews all came to Jerusalem but speaking different languages. That's why the speaking in tongue.

Basically, Hebrew speaking Jews back then used the Bible Canon defined and upheld by the Pharisees. Hellenistic Jews (those no longer had the ability to read Hebrew) used LXX instead. LXX however, unlike the Jewish Canon, wasn't controlled nor enforced by any authority.

Are you under the impression that Jewish history is ignored in rabbinical schools?

 

[Cino]

A summary of Margaret Baker's temple theology can be found here. Definitely interesting stuff.

Thanks, hadn't been aware of temple theology. Have you studied it to any extent? When skimming the summary page, I was wondering about the apparent contradiction of a pre-philosophical culture, which still somehow reflected in Pythagoras and Plato's Timaeus. How does she handle this?

 

[Ahanu]

Have you studied it to any extent?

Only one of her books.

When skimming the summary page, I was wondering about the apparent contradiction of a pre-philosophical culture, which still somehow reflected in Pythagoras and Plato's Timaeus. How does she handle this?

According to Margaret Baker, a few writers back then claimed Pythagoras had learned from the Jews, and not only that, but he had "adopted" their teachings (e.g., Hermippus of Smyrna, Aristobulus, and Josephus). She claims that, according to a biography about him, he had traveled to Syria (which included Judea) and lived near Mount Carmel for a period of time before departing for Egypt. She places his arrival shortly after the destruction of the first temple.

Here's the quote from Josephus in Against Apion about Jewish influence on Pythagoras:

"Pythagoras therefore of Samos lived in very ancient times: and was esteemed a person superior to all philosophers in wisdom, and piety towards God. Now ’tis plain, that he did not only know our doctrines, but was in very great measure a follower and admirer of them. There is not indeed extant any writing that is owned for his. (18) But many there are who have written his history. Of whom Hermippus is the most celebrated. Who was a person very inquisitive into all sorts of history. Now this Hermippus, in his first book concerning Pythagoras, speaks thus: that “Pythagoras, upon the death of one of his associates, whose name was Calliphon, a Crotoniate by birth, affirmed, that this man’s soul conversed with him, both night and day; and injoined him not to pass over a place where an ass had fallen down: as also not to drink of such waters as caused thirst again; and to abstain from all sorts of reproaches.” After which he adds this, “This he did, and said in imitation of the doctrines of the Jews and Thracians: which he transferred into his own philosophy.” For it is very truly affirmed of this Pythagoras, that he took a great many of the laws of the Jews into his own philosophy. Nor was our nation unknown of old to several of the Grecian cities: and indeed was thought worthy of imitation by some of them."​

Baker also writes about the similarities between the Essenes and the Pythagoreans:

"Josephus, who knew the Essenes well, said that they had the same lifestyle as the Pythagoreans, and the writings from Qumran suggest the community there were a conservative priestly group. Scholars have been unable to identify what prompted Pythagoras' characteristic teachings and admit that his 'science' presupposed a mythological framework."​

So Baker is claiming all three groups - the Pythagoreans, the Essenes, and early Christianity - adhere to first temple theology.

 

[Cino]

"Pythagorean" is also ancient-speak for "vegetarian". So that does not necessarily mean the Essenes were into sacred geometry as well, or whatever it was the Pythagoreans were doing - very secretive order, leftno writings as far as I know.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..According to Margaret Baker..

It's Margaret Barker..

She places his (Pythagoras) arrival shortly after the destruction of the first temple..

It's too long ago to be sure what Pythagoras believed..
..apart from his triangle 'stuff' and immortal souls

So Baker is claiming all three groups - the Pythagoreans, the Essenes, and early Christianity - adhere to first temple theology.

What is first temple theology, other than G-d's guidance revealed through his prophets?
The temple was destroyed shortly after the Judean King Mannasseh came to power. The "Temple of Solomon" was the core of a civilization that lasted around 400 years. King Mannasseh re-instituted polytheistic worship and reversed the religious changes made by his father Hezekiah, for which he is condemned by several Biblical texts.

History is full of the rise and fall of civilizations. When a nation falls into polytheism or idol worship, it is on its way down.

 

[Cino]

OTOH history is written by the survivors, and they sometimes shoehorn their views onto the events they describe...

 

[Ahanu]

It's Margaret Barker..

She's not afraid to throw a Hail Mary pass in the academic world of early Christianity. I wouldn't go so far as to describe her as fringe, though . . . if that's what you're hinting at.

It's too long ago to be sure what Pythagoras believed..
..apart from his triangle 'stuff' and immortal souls

There are no doubt contradictory beliefs about Pythagoras.

But let's consider an example of Pythagoras' possible use of Jewish teachings that I find interesting although I wouldn't use it as any type of conclusive proof. So how about his cube stuff? Peter Kingsley's Ancient Philosophy, Mystery and Magic states Pythagoreans believed that "at the centre of the four elements there lies a certain fiery cube." They described it as the throne of Zeus. Do any other Greek schools have this kind of description for the heart of the universe? Why a cube? Why fire? Why a throne of Zeus?

Baker draws our attention here to the similarities with the Jewish concept of the Holy of Holies, which was shaped like a perfect cube and lined with gold - a representation of fire - and so it was often described as a place of fire or a fiery throne too (Isa. 33.14, 17, 21; 1 Enoch 14.15-22; Dan. 7.9-14). According to Josephus, the four elements are described in the following way:

"The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire" (Antiquities 3.7.7).​

Philo also presents a similar description, stating the veils are "tokens and symbols of the four elements."

It could just all be a crazy case of Baker finding parallels everywhere - a sort of craze thinkers sometimes engage in when information is lacking . . .

"Pythagorean" is also ancient-speak for "vegetarian". So that does not necessarily mean the Essenes were into sacred geometry as well, or whatever it was the Pythagoreans were doing - very secretive order, leftno writings as far as I know.

Josephus reports he didn't write anything, whereas Clement of Alexandria reports he did. Despite opinions like these, I think there is some truth in the story he traveled to Egypt and in the process studied under Jewish teachers. I don't think we're discussing whether or not the Pythagoreans influenced the Essenes. The discussion for me is about whether or not Pythagoras was influenced by Jewish teachers and, if so, whether or not these preserved teachings show similarities with Qumran texts that point us to a distinct stream of tradition from the first temple time period.

OTOH history is written by the survivors, and they sometimes shoehorn their views onto the events they describe...

Yeah, sometimes. That's a possibility.

Perhaps the Greek writer Hermippus had ulterior motives: maybe he wanted to undermine Pythagoras' credibility and insult him by saying he incorporated Jewish teachings in his thought. There are many explanations, and one possible explanation is that Pythagoras really incorporated Jewish teachings in his thought.

 

[Ahanu]

She's not afraid to throw a Hail Mary pass in the academic world of early Christianity. I wouldn't go so far as to describe her as fringe, though . . . if that's what you're hinting at.

Oh, you're correcting my spelling. HAHAHA!

 

[Ahanu]

 

[Cino]

I don't think we're discussing whether or not the Pythagoreans influenced the Essenes.

No, it's all good, I just brought it up because I couldn't wrap my head around that seemingly contradictory statement about the philosophers, on her web page. Thanks for going into detail.

My comment about history being written by the survivors was in response to muhammad_isa's observation about the history of the rise&fall of civilization and the role of monotheism in this process.