Married Catholic clergy

[Thomas]

In terms of a wider view of celibacy, only the Jewish Tradition, I think, is against it. So to is Islam, although it is practiced in some Sufi orders.

The Buddha presented it as an ideal rule of life for monks and nuns. In Hinduism, celibacy is more commonly associated with the sadhus ('holy men'), ascetics who renounce the world. In the Vedic texts, the text translated as 'celibacy' means 'dedicated to the Divinity of Life'.

 

[wil]

Catholic priests choose celibacy. No-one forces them to.

if it is a requirement to be a priest....it is a requirement. Not a choice.

Like if I choose to drive a car, I am required to get a license.

Those who choose to go into clergy and not be celibate are forced to leave the church, thankfully there are options

 

[RJM]

Those who choose to go into clergy and not be celibate are forced to leave the church, thankfully there are options

Those who want to be a Catholic priest are required to do the training and take the vows. Otherwise they can settle for being a deacon, or start their own church, or do whatever else they want to do. Lots of options. Free world.

Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

 

[wil]

Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

The rock was married, not celibate, but I know the apologetics have that covered

 

[RJM]

The rock was married

I can just imagine it, lol: "Cephas, why you come home so late? Look at the time! You been out with that Yashua again? I tell you, he's going to get you into hot water one of these days!

And where's my bread? l asked you to bring home a loaf. But no, you dont think about your poor wife, do you Cephas? All I get is Yashua, Yashua: is all you can think about these days!

Your sandals! Why didn't you take them off? Now you walked fish scales and mud all over my floor! I just washed that floor! At least one of us has to do some work around here. How many times I have to ask you?

I should have listened to my father. He was a sensible man -- a real mensch, not like you. He told me not to marry you. He told me: 'That Cephas, he got his head in the clouds.'

But did I listen? I could have married Benjamin the lawer. Benjamin don’t come home all wet and smelling of fish. Walk on water: I never heard such rubbish. Talking of fish: I hope you caught some?

 

[Thomas]

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/215916/cardinal_hummes_and_married_priests
Claudio Hummes, a Brazilian Cardinal and close confidante of Pope Francis, has said: "Celibacy is a discipline, not a dogma of the Church." When Francis was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he stated that: "the celibacy rule is simply one of tradition and is flexible."

It is not a dogma of the church.

In 1 Corinthians, St. Paul says: "Do we not have the right to our food and drink? Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife, as the other Apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?" (9:4)

Interesting also that Paul distinguishes between Cephas (Peter) and 'the other apostles', which suggests his position with regard to the administration of the church.

A note on terminology: Paul uses 'adelphen gunaika' (lit: 'sister wife'). Clement of Alexandria construed this to mean that a 'sister wife' implied a celibate relationship, but text evidence suggests that for Paul, 'sister wife' meant a wife who was a Christian, and nothing more.

One group he (Clement of Alexandria) was particularly concerned to refute were the Encratites, a sect that insisted that all true followers of Christ must renounce sexual expression. Clement responded by holding up the married Apostles as examples of authentic Christianity. Consider, Clement said, the marriage of St. Peter. Like Philip, St. Peter experienced the joys of child-rearing in his marriage. Reporting a legend found nowhere else in the Christian sources, Clement told the story of the martyrdom of Peter’s wife. She was arrested and led away with Peter helplessly looking on. This sturdy old couple did not weep, however, or bewail their fate, but encouraged one another, knowing the end was near.

Worldwide, in 1970, Catholics numbered 653 million and were served by 419,728 priests. The Catholic population has now nearly doubled, to 1.2 billion, but the number of priests has shrunk in numerical terms to 412,236. Statistics for the United States are even grimmer — the number of priests has declined from 58,632 in 1965 to 38,964 in 2012, even while the Catholic population has increased from 48 million to 78 million.

From Huffpost.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes the reasoning for celibacy is that a married man with six children will obviously be at least as much concentrated upon his family as on his priesthood.

Hmm .. I'm not sure about that. In the days gone by, poor people had to become celibate in order to get assistance from the church.
ie. they had to become monks and nuns

If we were all monks and nuns, then mankind wouldn't last long at all
The other thing, of course, is that those that are married should not use contraception.
I can understand it for unmarried people, but these judgements/decisions are made by an elite, aren't they? They are not straight from scripture, as far as I'm aware.

 

[RJM]

... In the days gone by, poor people had to become celibate in order to get assistance from the church.
ie. they had to become monks and nuns

Can you provide references to back this up?

 

[RJM]

The other thing, of course, is that those that are married should not use contraception.
I can understand it for unmarried people, but these judgements/decisions are made by an elite, aren't they? They are not straight from scripture, as far as I'm aware

Ok. That is the teaching of the Church: sex for purpose of procreation. You are correct, there's probably nothing in scripture demands it. There's also nothing demands a person has to be a Catholic? If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to do it.

However, your point is understood.

End of the day however, if that's what the law says, a person may disagree, but the law stands?

Perhaps lots of people leave the church because they don't like it. But the church can't change to suit them?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Can you provide references to back this up?

Maybe later .. when I'm no longer a newbie
I noticed in the thread "Why?" that posts are moderated and links, images etc. cause posts not to appear for some time..

Are you saying that it never happened?
Many of the medieval almshouses in England were established with the aim of benefiting the soul of the founder or their family, and they usually incorporated a chapel. As a result, most were regarded as and were dissolved during the , under an act of 1547

More later..

 

[wil]

That is the teaching of the Church: sex for purpose of procreation. You are correct, there's probably nothing in scripture demands it. There's also nothing demands a person has to be a Catholic? If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to do it.

That is enough for me.

The celibacy thing is a surefire way to keep me outta the priesthood.

And most assuredly in my life sex has never been for procreation...there was this oops once where I got twins...

 

[RJM]

I think perhaps many religions have 'inner teachings'. So the Taoist immortality yoga teachings (which include celibacy) are then taken by Confucius and watered down to a sort of moral code for family life.

Sufism is really the inner heart of what has expanded to become the 'family' religion of Islam? Please correct me here if I'm ignorant.

Christ's teaching of being born again by water and the holy spirit is really identical to the Taoist and Kundalini 'bodhisattva' teachings.

It's an example of how general 'goodness' and family/social mores are a product -- but not the only purpose -- of the 'hidden' teachings, which concern 'union with God' yogas practiced by a small percentage of people.

Perhaps celibacy of the priesthood is a sort of left-over remnant of the inner teachings where a 'priest according to the order of Melchisidek' was more than what a priest is today?

 

[RJM]

The celibacy thing is a surefire way to keep me outta the priesthood.

Priests have to be able to sing, too. That counts me out, lol

 

[RJM]

And most assuredly in my life sex has never been for procreation...

But the 'inner teachings' are always against 'desire for woman and gold', as Ramakrishna Paramahansa put it. There may be modern objections to the terms used, but the meaning is clear.

Again: no-one says a person has to forsake these natural desires but if a yogi seeks the 'inner peace and union with God' these have to go by the wayside. Whether or not the 21st Century urban secular humanists agree.

Am using Eastern terms to make clear I'm not being preachy Christian. Now, it applies to followers of the 'inner teachings'. Someone else may not like what it says, but there it is, regardless: work to be free from material desire. All faiths teach it as way to God?

EDIT: On a family 'householder' level we just have to make the best of it, do what we can.

So there is the 'inner teaching' and then there is the 'householder' expansion into a moral code for society in general?

 

[RJM]

But how does this:

Many of the medieval almshouses in England were established with the aim of benefiting the soul of the founder or their family, and they usually incorporated a chapel.

Prove this:

the days gone by, poor people had to become celibate in order to get assistance from the church.
ie. they had to become monks and nuns

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry .. my last post should have read:-

Many of the medieval almshouses in England were established with the aim of benefiting the soul of the founder or their family, and they usually incorporated a chapel. As a result, most were regarded as chantries and were dissolved during the reformation, under an act of 1547

I merely point out some of the corruption that resulted from chantries set up by the rich, employing priests to pray for their families. They became the principal almshouses which helped the poor, who were heavily ostracized, families split etc.

Perhaps my statement was an exaggeration .. I have nothing against celibacy and dedication to God, but corruption was rife, which led to the reformation..

 

[RJM]

Sorry .. my last post should have read:-


I merely point out some of the corruption that resulted from chantries set up by the rich, employing priests to pray for their families. They became the principal almshouses which helped the poor, who were heavily ostracized, families split etc.

Perhaps my statement was an exaggeration .. I have nothing against celibacy and dedication to God, but corruption was rife, which led to the reformation..

No, please don't apologise. But I'm sorry I can't let it go just yet. The corruption that led to the reformation was mostly the practice of people being allowed to pay to get off time in purgatory. There was other corruption.

But not everything was corrupt. Were almshouses a bad thing? I wonder how they really split families, etc?

 

[RJM]

Bashing the medieval Catholic Church as the most evil organization that ever existed is common nowadays. But it's not true. They were tough times. But the Church alone provided sanctuary and hope and charity for the poor?

 

[Thomas]

Priests have to be able to sing, too. That counts me out, lol

LOL, same here! I'm a lay reader, but cantor? Not gonna happen.

Same with a beard. I can grow one — I am now, much to my wife's disapproval — but nothing on the scale you see on Orthodox priests, so that ruled out converting to the Orthodox church.

 

[Thomas]

I merely point out some of the corruption that resulted from chantries set up by the rich, employing priests to pray for their families... I have nothing against celibacy and dedication to God, but corruption was rife ...

Same everywhere, just shows up in different ways. In Japan there were bodhai-ji(?), Buddhist chantries for powerful samurai families ... temples were exempt taxes and made fortunes and interfered in the machinery of state, half the samurai became 'lay priests' when it suited ... it's a small example, but it evidences that such things are universal.